Any suggestions for a sail smaller than my 4.4m Koncept for those very occasional really howling days? - like big Sunday at the PiT last year when I couldn't hold my 4.4. Is there a cammed sail available smaller than 4.4m? Would it matter much if it was 50knots as long as you could sheet in? - ie in 18knots you can easily sail 35knots or so, but in the 50knots at the PiT last year the best speeds were pretty much wind speed or less.

how embarrasing! I triple posted by mistake - have asked Laurie to remove the other two.

Forgot to mention, I am about 69kg and weedy!

Plastic bag tied to mast?

hi Pedro
Andy Mc at KA was planning on producing a 4.0 Koncept this year. Maybe it would be an idea to drop him an email via the KA site and express your interest? Maybe a proto floating in his quiver or even better if there's enough inquiries for them he may produce them!
Cant hurt to try.
Perhaps daffy may know more on this? More his style
Back in the late 80's I had a 3.9 speedfoil pro Gaastra. I used it on thet 65 knot day at Sandy in the speed trials. (Polakow was on 2.9 wave sail from memory). I think I did nearly 40 and mal did 41 on a similar 3.9 proto gaastra. They were of the old style tight leech breed but if you were desperate you may find one in someone's garage??
Not too many - 4.0 speed sails around,
happy hunting
cheers Tony

I have been urging AMac to build a 3.8/3.9m Koncept for a couple of years. We almost did it for 2010 but a few last minute design problems pushed it into the 'too hard' basket when we ran out of time.
Since the 27th sept last year we have been discussing it again with interest!
It is the sort of sail that may only be required once every couple of years, but 27/9/09 showed many of us that those days can be the ones where you go faster then ever before, if only you can be in control. I would gladly have been $1000+ bucks down that day just to have been able to put in 5 or more controlled runs like Tony and Spotty did (instead of 2 totally out of control runs. ). After that day I actually believe that I could get close to 50 knots if I had had a smaller, controllable sail in those conditions. If the sail sits in the shed until the next mega day, so be it.

If your thoughts are similar to mine on this, post an expression of interest on the KA sails forum. My understanding is that 6 firm orders could make it a sure thing and I reckon I have about 3 lined up now.

Some calculations re. 27/09/09:- Spotty weighs 50% more than me and he was sailing with only 10% more sail (5m Koncept). He did 50 knots!
Tony also weighs 50% more than me and he was sailing with the same Koncept 4.4m as I was trying to sail with. Tony is the current world GPSSS 10 sec record holder as a result. We all thought, as did he, that he would never use his 4.4m Koncept! He had not even unrolled and rigged it until that day and he has always had one in the van since they were designed in that size. I guess he thinks it was worth having that small sail taking up space in his van all those years now!

Thanks for the replies. I will put my 2c worth into KA about the smaller Koncepts. There definitely are a few of us lighter speedies around who will occasionally find a 4.4 too big (Mat, Ado, Tom, Pat??).

I am interested though in how much it would matter in a 50knot wind if you used a proper cammed speed sail or just any old 3.9m (or so) freeride or wave sail - given that unlike in lighter winds you are not so likely to sail faster than the actual wind.

Can you (well a sail-maker anyway) cut a sail down in size and still retain a good shape?

Could you keep the same luff length, reduce the boom length, and still have it work?

Any sail designers here that could comment? It would seem much easier to use an older sail and get half a square metre off it than finding a good cammed sail in that size.

Pedro, the other alternative is to load up on food, and before you know it you will be at Spotty's weight...

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pedro e said...


I am interested though in how much it would matter in a 50knot wind if you used a proper cammed speed sail or just any old 3.9m (or so) freeride or wave sail - given that unlike in lighter winds you are not so likely to sail faster than the actual wind.

Good question Pedro.
On the big day at Speedweek 2004 - 35-50 knots (before KA Koncepts were invented), , I had one of the first 3.7m KA KAOS production sails. It enabled me to run the course a few times and crack 40 knots peak speed confirmed by GPS for the first time. Craig Hollins also got down a few times on a 4.7m Kult. Chris Lockwood completely destroyed his 5.1m sail and ended up using a 5.5m sail to go over 42 knots and firmly establish his name as a supersailor.
A few other guys attempted to get down the course with sails ranging from 3.5m to 5.5m but most got...... well...... trashed.

I had the 3.7m mega downhauled and trimmed flat but was still on the razors edge getting into the course square, but then a bit under powered (but relieved I was ) broad on the run.

The difference with a cammed speed sail is that the center of effort is a lot lower in the sail letting you use more of the available power. On the run in, if the wind is a bit square, this is important because the biggest problem is keeping the whole thing on the water and in control until you get to where you can really use that power. On a sail with a higher C of E it is very easy to get lifted right off the water. Also, you can trim the lower aspect cammed sail fuller so when you get broad you can still get maximum drive but still be in control. I would say that I can handle the 4.4m Koncept in as much or more wind than the 3.7m KAOS, and definitely go faster on the speed course.

That said, I would have liked to have had a 3.3m KAOS to try on 27-09-09! It would have been interesting to try, but I strongly suspect that it would have been just as hard to control as the 4.4m Koncept, and significantly slower on the course. Still, if it allowed me to get down the course in control on max attack, it would have been more than I achieved without it!

04 was my first com back into speed world. The kult was on the wrong mast so it didn,t work as well as it could. Sailed it for most of the day. I did try a Wild Winds 3.2 speed trial sail but it had a really short boom making it very twichy,so thats the challenge .....to make a small sail that has a good length boom,nice height and batten placement and is useable in 50kts. Learnt a lot in 09 and would run my normal set up instead of what i ran that day....Gee we need some wind

Start bombarding AMAC with emails, he can only say no.

2 problems I see, You guy's say you are happy to pay for a sail that sits around and may never get used but are you happy to pay for the 340 mast as well?
The 4.4 is as high aspect as you can go and it sets at 378. I beleive you would need to do a 3.8 on a shorter mast.

Second problem is purely volume. It,s not simply scaling down a 4.4, it,s an entire development program to do it properly. Is the market there to justify the many, many hours of work?

But hassle him , at least get the discusion happening. I will certainly discuss it with him.

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kato said...

.....to make a small sail that has a good length boom,nice height and batten placement and is useable in 50kts.

Hmmmm, strangely enough, I have a few ideas and sketches on that subject.

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kato said... Gee we need some wind

Yup!

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mr love said...

Start bombarding AMAC with emails, he can only say no.

You guy's say you are happy to pay for a sail that sits around and may never get used but are you happy to pay for the 340 mast as well?
The 4.4 is as high aspect as you can go and it sets at 378. I believe you would need to do a 3.8 on a shorter mast.
(snip)

Definitely a 340 mast! There is no point doing it unless it is done properly. Not sure it would warrant a full 100% 340 though. I think there are some viable lower % RDM alternatives. :-)

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pedro e said...

Any suggestions for a sail smaller than my 4.4m Koncept for those very occasional really howling days? - like big Sunday at the PiT last year when I couldn't hold my 4.4. Is there a cammed sail available smaller than 4.4m? Would it matter much if it was 50knots as long as you could sheet in? - ie in 18knots you can easily sail 35knots or so, but in the 50knots at the PiT last year the best speeds were pretty much wind speed or less.

Naish did a 4.2 Stealth cammed sail in 2006 and 2007, still some available new at great prices. If you fit a softer upper mast section and lots of downhaul you should be able to handle 50 knots pretty easily. I

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sailquik said...

mr love said...

Start bombarding AMAC with emails, he can only say no.

You guy's say you are happy to pay for a sail that sits around and may never get used but are you happy to pay for the 340 mast as well?
The 4.4 is as high aspect as you can go and it sets at 378. I believe you would need to do a 3.8 on a shorter mast.
(snip)

Definitely a 340 mast! There is no point doing it unless it is done properly. Not sure it would warrant a full 100% 340 though. I think there are some viable lower % RDM alternatives. :-)

Pardon my ignorance but couldn't a smaller sail be designed efficiently even with an adjustable head strap to accommodate shortest commercially available mast (as oppossed to specially manufacturing one).

PS - testing it could pose some problems though
PPS - wouldn't mind a 3.8sq.m this weekend in Yeppoon.

The new 2010 4.3m Koncept will handle higher wind than the older 4.4m Koncept.

The 4.3m Koncept boom is slightly shorter than the 4.4m.

Not sure if there is any 4.3m avail thou?

A 4.0 would be handy and I'll let AMac know, but for me at least, sailing in that wind wasn't the problem, it was lugging the gear, myself and 5kg of lead 1km back up the speed course into a gale in soft sand! Efficiency would have helped squeeze a knot or more out perhaps due to better sail and board trim.

If I could have hitched a ride back to the start line on Big Sunday last year, I would have managed a few more runs and my average would have ended up more like 44-45knots. Ah to be a sponsored speedsailor at the French Trench (or a powerhouse like Spotty and Tony)!

I like Sailquick's size/weight ratio analysis. Trouble is, to get the same sort of power to weight ratio as Tony Wyn had, us 65-75kg weight sailors would probably need a 3.0 or 3.5 sail at a guess and even smaller fins. No point carrying a 20cm anchor when using a 3.0-3.5!

Bring on the wind!

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Bonominator said...
If I could have hitched a ride back to the start line on Big Sunday last year, I would have managed a few more runs and my average would have ended up more like 44-45knots. Ah to be a sponsored speedsailor at the French Trench (or a powerhouse like Spotty and Tony)!

As much as I despise jetskis, they do have a practical use so I've always wondered whether you could shuttle sailors back to the top of the course on really epic days. Keeping the sail under control in 40knot winds whilst sitting on the back could prove troublesome although it wouldn't be too different from holding position of the sail when walking..

A jet ski could have been fairly busy on Big Sunday last year just rescuing people - myself included if I'd got more than a few metres out into the inlet!

I am wondering about the aspect ratio thing. I notice on the KA website that they made a 3.3m Kaos in 2006 that rigged on a 370 mast, or even a 400 with long extension. Wouldn't a 3.8m speed sail also work on a 370 mast? Or would it be too tall and skinny?

I am guessing that Sausage's suggestion of an adjustable head strap would compromise mast bend?

Might have to make do with Pat's idea of the plastic bag!

340 RDM's are readily available now. The wave sailors use them a bit. :-)

Its, not the length that is so important (we could just do an adjustable head), it is quite vital IMHO to have the softer mast to keep the dynamics of the sail right. (The difference between the same 3.7m KAOS wave sail on the 370 RDM compared with on a 4m RDM is quite significant)

We discussed cutting down an old 4.4m but when we looked into it AMac's comment was that it would be easier (and infinitely better) to design the right sail from the start.

You don't want a shorter boom, you need a lower aspect. Tiny short boom sails get too twitchy. Even though I was massively overpowered on 27-09-09, I was not getting torqued out at all. The sail was not the slightest bit unstable, it was just trying to lift me off the water with way to much power for my weight if I tried to sheet in properly.

I would keep the same length boom as the current 4.3m and might take a little bit off the chord length at the clew (little or no cut-out/overhang). I would certainly shorten the head and the upper leech.
There are other considerations as well. You need the center of effort in the sail low but in such a small sail you don't want it too low. You need to proportion the sail a but differently in this regard to keep a familiar balance and feel. I think the ideal 3.8m Koncept would look a bit different in outline and profile from the 4.3m and 4.9m. ;-)

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Roo said...

Naish did a 4.2 Stealth cammed sail in 2006 and 2007, still some available new at great prices. If you fit a softer upper mast section and lots of downhaul you should be able to handle 50 knots pretty easily. I

True, that is an awesome little sail. Mal W. has/had one, not that he is ever likely to use it, so it resides with Tom C. now.

I think maybe 'handle 50 knots pretty easily' may be a just little bit optimistic though. In my limited experience, nothing about a true 50 knots of wind is easy, even if the sail size is right! . I will keep that in mind for the future though and try to find out.

edit: Which reminds me of this sensational 50 knots peak by MVM. www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=forum&forum=2&val=3410
There are some fantastic photos of this little sail in action on that day but I just can't find them at the moment. Anyone?

My favorite sail is a RSR 5.8 - ideal for me from 25 - 35 knots of wind.
After that I have my RSR 5.0 -good from about 32 - 45 knots of wind.
Then there is my 4.6 which rigs on a 370 mast - never to be removed from the garage again!
The 5.8 is so good because it has so much "frontal" drive that can push the nose of the board down when wind is trying to lift it.
The 5.0 still has a fair amount of this righting push from over the boom to drive the nose back to the water,although I have to move it forward in the mast track a little.
The soft mast on the 4.6 has not worked for me in extreme conditions when I want the boards nose pressed back on the water,this is when the soft mast flexes out and the nose of the board lifts -pain or swimming normally comes next!

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sailquik said...

edit: Which reminds me of this sensational 50 knots peak by MVM. www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=forum&forum=2&val=3410
There are some fantastic photos of this little sail in action on that day but I just can't find them at the moment. Anyone?

If this is the photo I'm thinking of, the one were he's leaning right back and the mast is bending to leeward so far it looks like it's going to snap, then that is the photo that first piqued my interest in speed sailing. I recall it in the UK Windsurf publication (I think).

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sausage said...

sailquik said...

edit: Which reminds me of this sensational 50 knots peak by MVM. www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=forum&forum=2&val=3410
There are some fantastic photos of this little sail in action on that day but I just can't find them at the moment. Anyone?

If this is the photo I'm thinking of, the one were he's leaning right back and the mast is bending to leeward so far it looks like it's going to snap, then that is the photo that first piqued my interest in speed sailing. I recall it in the UK Windsurf publication (I think).

Yep! Thats the one. It is on the web somewhere I am sure. Maybe Dave Whites web page? A sensational photo!!!

Thanks Dave B!

Here it is: Radical!!

[/URL]

Hi guys,

Thanks for bringing that day up. It was at West Kirby. Dave White was shooting pics behind his van and at a given moment I saw the whole van being lifted and it moved around 10 centimeters towards Dave. That's when we I said he'd better move away from his car. We called it a day and waited for the wind to die a little and the tide to drop. Windgusts over 80 knots were reported an people came down the beach to watch nature beating down on the West Kirby shoreline.

The roof of a giant supermarket was nearly ripped off while we were waiting in a local restaurant. When we returned to the shore the wind had died to a moderate 50 knots gusting 60 and Dave tried to balance a 3.2 wave sail in the wind. He couln't hold it and was weihing over 120 kilos back then. We waited a litle longer and I decided to take my Stealth 4.2. Actually it felt easy to hold onto in the windgusts we had at that given moment and in hindsight I should have gone onto the water a little earlier, but I have to admit we were too impressed by the force of nature.

Apparently a national sports news program which only broadcasts rugby and cricket eported on some crazy windsurfers fighting the storm of a lifetime in West Kirby. These are the days why I love to call myself a speedsurfer.

Anyone who can ay his hands on this 4.2 and is interested in a superfast and controllable small sail should do so. the sail trims beautifully and as the pic shows it's full and has got plenty of twist to cope with the gusts. Make sure to crank the downhaul though as it will help you accellerate like crazy this way and it substantially lowers the center of effort.

I beleive the pic was taken by Howie when the wind had died substantially. There is also some youtube footage of the day shot by Howie. Halfway you can hear him screaming from joy haha. It was so nice to meet the English crew back then and these are trips which I will recall when I am eighty years old. If I recall well the first run which is shown is the fastest run. Actually this wasn't my 50 knot run as that as set on a Maui Sails 5.0 in Southend, but this trip was way more impresive as I've never experienced this much wind. I can fully understand the call for small sailsizes by those who were in SP at the epic day last year. Barry wanted to help me out with a 3.8 speedsail just before I left Maui Sails, but we never made it. West Kirby showed me we can handle massive amounts of wind if the water tays flat and a sail is small enough and handles well. A 4.2 can be way too big, so I found out and with a 3.8 I would hve been on the water a lot earlier.

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Goo Screw said...


The soft mast on the 4.6 has not worked for me in extreme conditions when I want the boards nose pressed back on the water,this is when the soft mast flexes out and the nose of the board lifts -pain or swimming normally comes next!

goo screw its a shame to see such a great sail going to waste, ive got the n/p 4.6 and rig it on a 400 100% skinny, i know its not recomended, ive made a loop for the top and zero bottom extention and had it out in 35+ and the sail was sweet as, i'm not sure about pressing the nose down but i wish i had a smaller fin

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keef said...

Goo Screw said...


The soft mast on the 4.6 has not worked for me in extreme conditions when I want the boards nose pressed back on the water,this is when the soft mast flexes out and the nose of the board lifts -pain or swimming normally comes next!

goo screw its a shame to see such a great sail going to waste, ive got the n/p 4.6 and rig it on a 400 100% skinny, i know its not recomended, ive made a loop for the top and zero bottom extention and had it out in 35+ and the sail was sweet as, i'm not sure about pressing the nose down but i wish i had a smaller fin

You might be onto something there keef,as I have only used it on a x9 370.
A 400 would be good if it fit's and a skinny would have to be worth a try as well.
It is hard to find nuclear conditions to test these things,but when it does get super windy you really don't want to end up standing on the beach longing for a smaller sail!

heres a pic ive been useing skinnies on the n/p4.6rs KA5.0concept, n/p58 rss and the rs6.2, the new n/p cams fit like a glove and the rotation is a bream