I was wondering if there was any way to build a handicap system. Horse racing & sailing have them.. I suppose there are too many variables?
E.g - Some on wave gear or slalom or speed , choppy or flat water , age fitness etc etc..
It would be great if someone could work out one so everyone is on an equal footing.

It isn't going to happen Sue. Much too complex to set up and in the end the results would be meaningless. Keep it simple stupid is the way to go. Too much complexity would result in a lot less fun and a lot more arguing.


PS remember you are mainly competing against yourself in the GPSTC.

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Mobydisc said..

It isn't going to happen Sue. Much too complex to set up and in the end the results would be meaningless. Keep it simple stupid is the way to go. Too much complexity would result in a lot less fun and a lot more arguing.


PS remember you are mainly competing against yourself in the GPSTC.

Yep. I know..

Sue, I would like to be in the WFA (weight for age) division. I'am 150 kilos & 105 years old.

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sboardcrazy said..

I was wondering if there was any way to build a handicap system. Horse racing & sailing have them.. I suppose there are too many variables?
E.g - Some on wave gear or slalom or speed , choppy or flat water , age fitness etc etc..
It would be great if someone could work out one so everyone is on an equal footing.

Don't try and wreck a good thing Sue, start your own GPS series.

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Mobydisc said..

It isn't going to happen Sue. Much too complex to set up and in the end the results would be meaningless. Keep it simple stupid is the way to go. Too much complexity would result in a lot less fun and a lot more arguing.


PS remember you are mainly competing against yourself in the GPSTC.

Thats the trouble Moby....she is competing against herself.

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AUS4 said..

sboardcrazy said..

I was wondering if there was any way to build a handicap system. Horse racing & sailing have them.. I suppose there are too many variables?
E.g - Some on wave gear or slalom or speed , choppy or flat water , age fitness etc etc..
It would be great if someone could work out one so everyone is on an equal footing.

Don't try and wreck a good thing Sue, start your own GPS series.

Yeah Sue, don't rock the boat. It suits some people just the way it is .... Why would they want to put the rest of us on an equal footing?

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Anise said..

AUS4 said..

sboardcrazy said..

I was wondering if there was any way to build a handicap system. Horse racing & sailing have them.. I suppose there are too many variables?
E.g - Some on wave gear or slalom or speed , choppy or flat water , age fitness etc etc..
It would be great if someone could work out one so everyone is on an equal footing.

Don't try and wreck a good thing Sue, start your own GPS series.

Yeah Sue, don't rock the boat. It suits some people just the way it is .... Why would they want to put the rest of us on an equal footing?

I don't think its a question of rocking the boat. It is as Sue writes in the original post, too many variables. There are probably a million and one variables when it comes to windsurfing. For example last Sunday I was blown away on choppy waters and did not achieve good results. However if I had travelled to a more sheltered lake I would probably have achieved some PBs. So how on earth could my results be handicapped?

It would be incredibly complex to introduce any form of handicapping. As soon as handicapping is introduced for one factor, perhaps weight, then why won't it be introduced for another factor, ie a bad back or bad knees? We will be opening up a 44 gallon drum of worms if we go down the path of handicapping.


Edit: please try to remember the GPSTC is not primarily about results, that is not what is was designed for. There are other GPS competitions concentrating on results. The GPSTC's primary goal is to build up links between windsurfers and creating a community.

We have actually discussed this as a possibility for our lake Macquarie team GPS comp. ie separate to gpstc. Still trying to figure out how it can work, but stay tuned Sue.

Back in 2008, when GPSTC was started by a few wise men and women, the philosophy was:-

Inclusiveness: That everyone in the windsurfing community be included from fun and social sailors, to the serious including pro's. Participation: That it is important to participate, to be involved, to develop skills and improve Personal Best Times. Be involved all season, not just summer.
Fun: That most importantly we have fun, and however you get it, from stacking it on a 15 knot run, to doing 40+ knots, or just having a beer/burboun/wine with your friends after a session. Building relationships: That we connect people with the same passion, meet new people, create connections intra and inter-state, and generally just build relationships and grow our community.

More generally, Windsurfing at speed is also about getting fit, developing skills and technique, we can all learn how to windsurf better, and some elements of GPS mean you want to sail more in order to give yourself a better chance of performing better, so more time on water has multiple benefits.

And this should remain the focus. Inclusiveness, Participation and Fun. There are many other sites if you want to get wound up about hard core competition.
KISS it and have fun on the water.

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westozwind said..

Back in 2008, when GPSTC was started by a few wise men and women, the philosophy was:-

Inclusiveness: That everyone in the windsurfing community be included from fun and social sailors, to the serious including pro's. Participation: That it is important to participate, to be involved, to develop skills and improve Personal Best Times. Be involved all season, not just summer.
Fun: That most importantly we have fun, and however you get it, from stacking it on a 15 knot run, to doing 40+ knots, or just having a beer/burboun/wine with your friends after a session. Building relationships: That we connect people with the same passion, meet new people, create connections intra and inter-state, and generally just build relationships and grow our community.

More generally, Windsurfing at speed is also about getting fit, developing skills and technique, we can all learn how to windsurf better, and some elements of GPS mean you want to sail more in order to give yourself a better chance of performing better, so more time on water has multiple benefits.

And this should remain the focus. Inclusiveness, Participation and Fun. There are many other sites if you want to get wound up about hard core competition.
KISS it and have fun on the water.

I enjoy the GPS for that reason.. I was just bored and musing over this idea.
Thats sounds good James. Probably be a nightmare .

Hi Sue, i started a handicap system for our team to help encourage sailors
to improve (if they wish) and to add a little bit of friendly team competition.

The handicap system is based on data logged into the GPSTC, and uses the
sailors times from the previous year only. We have a monthly challenge based
on one or more of the six disciplines, this month it is all six.
The sailors score is expressed as a percentage of their best times from the previous year.

You are welcome to visit /join our facebook page www.facebook.com/groups/584746731548783/
where you can see the several previous challenges.

I think the system works pretty well as everybody has an equal chance of winning (although one sailor
has dominated recently).

If anyone else has ideas for improvements on this system i would like to hear them.

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Mobydisc said..

Anise said..

AUS4 said..

sboardcrazy said..

I was wondering if there was any way to build a handicap system. Horse racing & sailing have them.. I suppose there are too many variables?
E.g - Some on wave gear or slalom or speed , choppy or flat water , age fitness etc etc..
It would be great if someone could work out one so everyone is on an equal footing.

Don't try and wreck a good thing Sue, start your own GPS series.

Yeah Sue, don't rock the boat. It suits some people just the way it is .... Why would they want to put the rest of us on an equal footing?

I don't think its a question of rocking the boat. It is as Sue writes in the original post, too many variables.

It would be incredibly complex to introduce any form of handicapping.

And yet other sports (including sailing) manage to overcome these insurmountable obstacles. Even One design windsurfing has weight categories. Where there's a will, there's a way....

Hi Guy's was reading this topic, I'm no GPS sailor nor am I getting into the debate...just thought this was relevant and maybe of interest to the discussion.
Aside for the discussion about weight and age, this is how you have an 'even race with even conditions' http://freeracequeensland.com/

Everyone is on the same bit of water at the same time, 1Hr ..go for it..plug your GPS in and shazham...you have a result on who sailed the most/fastest on the day in the same conditions, so you can compete on an equal playing level as everyone else and still try and work on your own PB's etc.

You can even have a live or replayed digital version of the event like this!

.be

Age, weight, location. These are all important factors. However they miss the whole point of why the GPSTC works. It works because it's simple. It works as ther are a minimum of rules. As a result hundreds post results every weekend. You can sail anywhere, any time, on any type of windsurfer and participate. It doesn't matter if you weigh fourty kgs or 140. It doesn't matter if the wind is five or fifty knots.

As Sue rightly points out there are so many variables that all must be verified. At least with the GPS system the results can be analysed and verified if necessary. If we took weight as a variable, how is weight going to be verified? Even age would be difficult to verify if someone complained that someone else was in an incorrect age group. Would the GPSTC committee be expected to go around and weigh people if a complaint was made? Would sailors be asked to provide proof of age? To me this does not sound like fun and informality. It sounds like the 99% of the crap we must deal with in modern life.

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rrdsailor said..

Hi Sue, i started a handicap system for our team to help encourage sailors
to improve (if they wish) and to add a little bit of friendly team competition.

The handicap system is based on data logged into the GPSTC, and uses the
sailors times from the previous year only. We have a monthly challenge based
on one or more of the six disciplines, this month it is all six.
The sailors score is expressed as a percentage of their best times from the previous year.

You are welcome to visit /join our facebook page www.facebook.com/groups/584746731548783/
where you can see the several previous challenges.

I think the system works pretty well as everybody has an equal chance of winning (although one sailor
has dominated recently).

If anyone else has ideas for improvements on this system i would like to hear them.

That is just brilliant! Excellent idea - easy to calculate and can give most windsurfers a chance to win a category (while still having fun)! I consider this would make a great 8th category for the GPSTC with the 7th being "knots per kg".

Even though it wouldn't change the overall rankings, it would be nice to give lightweights and less experienced windsurfers a couple of categories to potentially excel at. Even if "knots per kg" isn't verifiable and needs to rely on everyone's honesty it would be no different from what currently happens with the age category and in fact the whole GPSTC since it relies on everyone posting their own results (not strapping the GPS to someone else).

we should do it based on the number of active team sailors , or average the speed over the whole team

It ain't broke !!!! Nothing to fix. !!!!!!!!

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KA360 said..

rrdsailor said..

Hi Sue, i started a handicap system for our team to help encourage sailors
to improve (if they wish) and to add a little bit of friendly team competition.

The handicap system is based on data logged into the GPSTC, and uses the
sailors times from the previous year only. We have a monthly challenge based
on one or more of the six disciplines, this month it is all six.
The sailors score is expressed as a percentage of their best times from the previous year.

You are welcome to visit /join our facebook page www.facebook.com/groups/584746731548783/
where you can see the several previous challenges.

I think the system works pretty well as everybody has an equal chance of winning (although one sailor
has dominated recently).

If anyone else has ideas for improvements on this system i would like to hear them.

That is just brilliant! Excellent idea - easy to calculate and can give most windsurfers a chance to win a category (while still having fun)! I consider this would make a great 8th category for the GPSTC with the 7th being "knots per kg".

Even though it wouldn't change the overall rankings, it would be nice to give lightweights and less experienced windsurfers a couple of categories to potentially excel at. Even if "knots per kg" isn't verifiable and needs to rely on everyone's honesty it would be no different from what currently happens with the age category and in fact the whole GPSTC since it relies on everyone posting their own results (not strapping the GPS to someone else).

And when I wear my weight jacket its.............................????

Google this topic as its been done so many times before

The Team challenge is just that ....a team sport
and it works cos its simple.

Compare with who ever you like ,weight ,age, lack of skill, lack of money, no flat water, no water.

Unless you race/sail on the same patch of water at that same time it doesn't matter what the result is....... its just FUN

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fanatic02 said..

It ain't broke !!!! Nothing to fix. !!!!!!!!

As long as it suits you, why should you care, right????

No it doesn't suit me in light conditions. Which we have most of the time as I am 100!kgs.
I find it a bit of a challenge trying to keep up with the lighter people

Is it possible to know how the current points system is worked out?
Cheers
Marty

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MartinF2 said..

Is it possible to know how the current points system is worked out?
Cheers
Marty

The literal answer to that is yes, but I guess what you really want is it explained?

basically your best score in every division ranks you against everybody else, your overall points is the sum of your ranking positions in each category.
Modifies by the year, age, place, team etc filters.

So the best possible score is 6, 1st in every division.

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kato said..

KA360 said..

rrdsailor said..

Hi Sue, i started a handicap system for our team to help encourage sailors
to improve (if they wish) and to add a little bit of friendly team competition.

The handicap system is based on data logged into the GPSTC, and uses the
sailors times from the previous year only. We have a monthly challenge based
on one or more of the six disciplines, this month it is all six.
The sailors score is expressed as a percentage of their best times from the previous year.

You are welcome to visit /join our facebook page www.facebook.com/groups/584746731548783/
where you can see the several previous challenges.

I think the system works pretty well as everybody has an equal chance of winning (although one sailor
has dominated recently).

If anyone else has ideas for improvements on this system i would like to hear them.

That is just brilliant! Excellent idea - easy to calculate and can give most windsurfers a chance to win a category (while still having fun)! I consider this would make a great 8th category for the GPSTC with the 7th being "knots per kg".

Even though it wouldn't change the overall rankings, it would be nice to give lightweights and less experienced windsurfers a couple of categories to potentially excel at. Even if "knots per kg" isn't verifiable and needs to rely on everyone's honesty it would be no different from what currently happens with the age category and in fact the whole GPSTC since it relies on everyone posting their own results (not strapping the GPS to someone else).

And when I wear my weight jacket its.............................????

Google this topic as its been done so many times before

The Team challenge is just that ....a team sport
and it works cos its simple.

Compare with who ever you like ,weight ,age, lack of skill, lack of money, no flat water, no water.

Unless you race/sail on the same patch of water at that same time it doesn't matter what the result is....... its just FUN

Sorry! I keep getting confused! Why is there an individual rankings table? You have previously said that those competing on an individual level should go to GPSSS

Can you honestly say that, even though "...it doesn't matter what the result is.....", all these "team" players are off to Lake George or other speed sailing destinations or invest in new and better gear or wear weight jackets (because weighing more seems to help increase speed ) just to help the team? To my mind, there seems to be a lot of interest in "personal" bests in this "team" sport! Even when the PBs are not achieved by improvement in sailing ability.

Fun seems to be different for different people. Why is it that when ever any change is proposed, it's put down because we don't need any changes since it is all "just for fun" or it doesn't matter because it's a "team sport"? Why don't you just scrap the individual rankings all together then? I bet if you did, participation would go down!

And by the way, I think that weight jackets should be against the rules. Why would anyone bother doing that if it was all just FUN? I suppose you would think it would be fun to have a team boxing competition with a team of people weighing half your weights, while having lead in your boxing gloves "Knots per kg" category would at least be a disincentive to wearing lead!

I don't think that just because the GPSTC has been this way till now, it should never be changed. Adding a couple of categories doesn't have to make it more complex and it would be more FUN for the lightweights. It would be easy to check - just try a new category for a year on a provisional basis and see whether people like it. If it doesn't work it can be scrapped.

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rrdsailor said..

Hi Sue, i started a handicap system for our team to help encourage sailors
to improve (if they wish) and to add a little bit of friendly team competition.

The handicap system is based on data logged into the GPSTC, and uses the
sailors times from the previous year only. We have a monthly challenge based
on one or more of the six disciplines, this month it is all six.
The sailors score is expressed as a percentage of their best times from the previous year.

You are welcome to visit /join our facebook page www.facebook.com/groups/584746731548783/
where you can see the several previous challenges.

I think the system works pretty well as everybody has an equal chance of winning (although one sailor
has dominated recently).

If anyone else has ideas for improvements on this system i would like to hear them.

Sounds good ! I'll check it out when I get a chance.

Hmmm... I am pretty surprised by all the individual competitiveness in a few threads in here at the moment. GPS Speedsurfing is there for anyone who wants to focus on individual competition. I don't see a need to try to turn GPSTC into something that already exists elsewhere?

I'm female, I'm in a team with 50 members, I'm never likely to contribute a jelly bean, but I really enjoy just trying to get better regardless of what anyone else is doing.

It kind of even makes me sad to see people in the Speed Sailing Targets for 2014 thread aiming to beat others. The beautiful thing about GPSTC is the support - everyone goes to great lengths to support each other and help everyone get PBs. It would be really sad to see that change.

I also play golf, and I find handicapping kind of condescending. It's nice to compete with yourself - try to reduce your handicap etc. But as far as competing with others, what satisfaction is there in winning something when you've been given a head start?

Handicaps don't give you a head start they just try & even out the playing field.It doesn't really worry me that much but it would be nice to be able to contribute a few jelly beans to the team a year..I don't see a problem with a bit of friendly rivalry - all in fun!

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sboardcrazy said..

Handicaps don't give you a head start they just try & even out the playing field.It doesn't really worry me that much but it would be nice to be able to contribute a few jelly beans to the team a year..I don't see a problem with a bit of friendly rivalry - all in fun!

sue your in the wrong team for jelly beans , you have 12 registered AUS sailors in that team
heres what you do , you only need two members per team , so you register a team called (jellybeans) and keep it at that ,and
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MOOOOOOOOOOOOOORE members ,just keep it simple

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keef said..

sboardcrazy said..

Handicaps don't give you a head start they just try & even out the playing field.It doesn't really worry me that much but it would be nice to be able to contribute a few jelly beans to the team a year..I don't see a problem with a bit of friendly rivalry - all in fun!

sue your in the wrong team for jelly beans , you have 12 registered AUS sailors in that team
heres what you do , you only need two members per team , so you register a team called (jellybeans) and keep it at that ,and
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MOOOOOOOOOOOOOORE members ,just keep it simple

"edit" there you go, I just read read salty nics post and shes in the same position as you , if you want an all girls team and enjoy a few jellybeans theres your answer

Thanks Keef. An all girls team of two. Jelly beans galore and then we can argue for a team handicap for only having two members, both being women, being based in northern NSW where the average sail size is 7.5, and the total team weight being under 150kg. Sounds like a plan

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needsalt said..

Thanks Keef. An all girls team of two. Jelly beans galore and then we can argue for a team handicap for only having two members, both being women, being based in northern NSW where the average sail size is 7.5, and the total team weight being under 150kg. Sounds like a plan

yer and maybe you could save your jelly beans up and go tandem, and argue whos going to be in the back