Hi Guys

Apologies in advance of the lengthy post, but I need help/advice from you gurus

I know there's been a tonne of threads about how to improve speed and I've read most of them (many old ones that are now closed), but I still have a few questions around some things I'm struggling with in my quest to go faster


Background: I ride a 115ltr Tabou Rocket with twin-cam free-race sails and FO Nitros.

1. when I bare off I'm finding that running with the chop (small swell) in Botany Bay, than the board is far more susceptible to spinning out. It's main when I launch over the back (over take) the chop. As I come over the top of the chop the fin has a lot less grip on the water. If I stay on the power and don't back off when I approach a bigger lump, it's pretty scary and I never know if the tail's going to let go. If I do sheet out a bit and stand up straighter then I feel like I'm definitely loosing power. So, how do I handle the rolling lumps when heading down wind... what do you guys do? I have my front leg as straight as possible and my mast track in the middle.

2. What's the ideal angle off the wind for speed?

3. When baring off I'm still sheeting in hard (locked-in with the gap closed). While this feels where most of the power is, it confuses me, because I keep thinking that logically the more off the wind I sail the more I should be sheeting out to keep the sail square to the wind (in yachting it's called gull wing)... but in practice this doesn't feel as powerful or fast. I suspect this has something to do with "apparent wind"?? Is this where the top twisting off really helps (and thus more downhaul)?Can you guys please explain this for me and how apparent wind works when baring off for a speed run.

4. Yesterday I tried sailing with my mast track in the furthest back position. It felt good, but even in my inexperience I could tell it caused me to force more weight onto the back foot and load-up the fin way too much, resulting in a lot more spin out. So I moved it back to dead centre, which felt much better and controllable. How does mast track effect speed and heading?

5. My last few sessions I've been rigging one size bigger than I would normally be comfortable with because I've been told that bigger sails = more speed. However, yesterday, in just 20-25kts I decided to rig my 6m because I wanted to practice gybing, but in doing so I felt in perfect control and managed to get 4 PBs, including beating my 2 sec by >1 knt, which I previously achieved in exactly the same conditions only with a 7.1 (same sail make and model btw). I was also going faster than guys on 7.5 sails. So I'm now thinking that size doesn't matter... it's about control? What's you're take on this?

6. last question, do smaller fins have less drag and therefore go faster? I imagine they're more susceptible to spinout, but if I can figure out the answer to question 1, maybe I can use a smaller fin (assuming smaller is faster).

Thanks in advance of your sage advice.

Peace to ya,
Nige

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2035 said..
Hi Guys

Apologies in advance of the lengthy post, but I need help/advice from you gurus

I know there's been a tonne of threads about how to improve speed and I've read most of them (many old ones that are now closed), but I still have a few questions around some things I'm struggling with in my quest to go faster


Background: I ride a 115ltr Tabou Rocket with twin-cam free-race sails and FO Nitros.

1. when I bare off I'm finding that running with the chop (small swell) in Botany Bay, than the board is far more susceptible to spinning out. It's main when I launch over the back (over take) the chop. As I come over the top of the chop the fin has a lot less grip on the water. If I stay on the power and don't back off when I approach a bigger lump, it's pretty scary and I never know if the tail's going to let go. If I do sheet out a bit and stand up straighter then I feel like I'm definitely loosing power. So, how do I handle the rolling lumps when heading down wind... what do you guys do? I have my front leg as straight as possible and my mast track in the middle.

2. What's the ideal angle off the wind for speed?

3. When baring off I'm still sheeting in hard (locked-in with the gap closed). While this feels where most of the power is, it confuses me, because I keep thinking that logically the more off the wind I sail the more I should be sheeting out to keep the sail square to the wind (in yachting it's called gull wing)... but in practice this doesn't feel as powerful or fast. I suspect this has something to do with "apparent wind"?? Is this where the top twisting off really helps (and thus more downhaul)?Can you guys please explain this for me and how apparent wind works when baring off for a speed run.

4. Yesterday I tried sailing with my mast track in the furthest back position. It felt good, but even in my inexperience I could tell it caused me to force more weight onto the back foot and load-up the fin way too much, resulting in a lot more spin out. So I moved it back to dead centre, which felt much better and controllable. How does mast track effect speed and heading?

5. My last few sessions I've been rigging one size bigger than I would normally be comfortable with because I've been told that bigger sails = more speed. However, yesterday, in just 20-25kts I decided to rig my 6m because I wanted to practice gybing, but in doing so I felt in perfect control and managed to get 4 PBs, including beating my 2 sec by >1 knt, which I previously achieved in exactly the same conditions only with a 7.1 (same sail make and model btw). I was also going faster than guys on 7.5 sails. So I'm now thinking that size doesn't matter... it's about control? What's you're take on this?

6. last question, do smaller fins have less drag and therefore go faster? I imagine they're more susceptible to spinout, but if I can figure out the answer to question 1, maybe I can use a smaller fin (assuming smaller is faster).

Thanks in advance of your sage advice.

Peace to ya,
Nige

The sail should feel light in the hands and still pulling at the same time feel can be deceptive, I've done heaps of runs which didn't feel fast or powered yet they were my fastest runs.

For me control equals speed, and I can't advise about chop, I'm no good in it.
my fastest runs have been with a 5.0, and I also have been told, "bigger is faster" but it doesn't seem to work for me.

I've got a mate who's over 20kg heavier than me, and goes faster on the same size sail as me, even though I feel underpowered, and in need of a bigger sail.
But as the wind picks up, and I feel more powered up, the difference in our speeds diminishes.
Make sense of that if you can!

Hi Nigel, from my limited experience:
1 - I have never been spinning out while bearing away, usually it happens to me while going upwind and bouncing on chop, or pushing the back foot too hard when not enough powered, maybe better sailors can explain this one.
2 - the stronger the wind the more you can bear off and accelerate.
3 - A board speed is so fast that the apparent wind is always in front, that's why you need to sheet in all the time, how much depends on experience and feel, you need to feel the pull on the sail, feel that if you sheet in you accelerate
4 - The more back the mast foot, the more the nose of your board will lift, so it will be faster if you have power, but more likely to fly away or spin out
5 - A smaller sail is more efficient in the gusts, at Kyeemag yesterday it was very gusty, so you have taken advantage of a strong one, but probaly you would have been planing more often with a larger sail, here the key is that you felt comfortable with it.
6 - Yes they would be faster downwind, but harder to come back upwind.... Artur is an expert at using smaller fins..

For what it's worth:- Because the vast majority of my experience at speed sailing has been in 30kts 'ish and up winds and small 50-60 litre boards under 45cm wide with fins 20cm and smaller, mostly assy on 'flattish' water, or at least water where the chop is quite short and one can usually cut through it without the board pitching and bouncing much. But I do like to push the slalom board downwind through the hairy chop here to try for a 30+ Nautie occasionally!

1. Smartarse answer: You can't. Just find flatter water.
Serious answer: You need to have some 'give' in your legs and try to 'ride' the board over the bumps, trying to minimise shock loading the fin as much as possible. Not always easy when you are also trying to extract max power and stay on top of your board, but that is my best tip other than the other stuff below.

2. The ideal angle off the wind depends on many things. There is no magic number. It changes (increases) as the wind gets stronger because your efficiency (board speed to wind speed) decreases. But as a starting point it mostly ranges from 115 degrees off the wind to 135 or maybe a couple more at somewhere like the Luderitz ditch with 50-60 knots gusts. One way to find it on any given run is to watch your GPS as you sail, or, listen to the audio feedback from the GT-31 Genie. (It beeps at you as your average speed is increasing and stops when it is not - I think the light flashes in sync as well)

3. See answer 2, but it is definitely possible to oversheet when running broad, especially in stronger winds where you apparent wind is not so far forward. Mal Wright taught me to try to sail with the least sheeting angle where you can still feel the sail drawing properly with laminar flow (or what passes for it). At mid 40 knots speeds, you want to take the pressure off the fin as much as you can and have the sail sheeted out a bit to have the maximum lift vector as much in the direction of travel as possible. I can't give you any rules for this. It is a trial and error sort of thing and the more you do it the better you get at feeling it. Now you know what to try to look for.

4. Strictly speaking, having you mast track further back should not automatically increase pressure on the back foot. The centre of effort in the sail will still balance with the centre of resistance of the board. The sail just stands up straighter. But, this might allow the sail to be a bit more efficient and provide increased lift. That is what you might be feeling as increased fin pressure. It also may take a bit of weight off the front of the board as your stance changes because of the more upright rig. This may move the centre of resistance further back and allow the centre of effort to come further back to compensate. This is more about the resultant mast foot pressure from your stance, but will have the effect that you felt as well. Ideally, you need to find a balance between max efficiency and comfort/control, because that is where the best speed is.

5. Bigger sails are only faster until you reach the limit of the power you can use efficiently. There is an optimum size for any wind and sail. Increased size also means increased drag. Simply put, you need to sail the smallest sail you can feel close to fully powered up on without down hauling the sail to the point where it is all drag and no more lift. Imaging the difference in 30 knots of wind between a 5m sail that is set fullish down low, but still flat and twisted in the top and providing enough power for you to be fully extended for near max leverage, and the 7.5m sail that has to be set with massively twisted loose leech and very flat lower foil to maintain control. It may actually not be making any more useful lift but will certainly be making a massive amount more drag. In the early days at Sandy Point when the wind conditions were very much more laminar, my best speeds in the low to mid 40's were always on my 4.4m Koncepts, even though I could easily hold the 5m. I would swap down and go 2 knots faster straight away. Part of this was because of the lower centre of effort in the sail. This directs more drive forward rather than upwards. Part was due to the lighter rig allowing the board to sail lighter on the water (higher with less resistance). As we have evolved our sails to move the power lower and reduce the upper sail drag, (and the wind characteristic here have changed slightly), I find myself doing PB's (or at least getting closer to them) now more often on my 5m and even 5.4m Koncepts. Of course, this might also be partly because I have a little more 'natural leverage' now as well!.

6. It's the same with fins as with sails. You need to use the smallest fin that will give you the control and lift you need to balance your rig at the angle you are sailing. The faster you go, the more lift a fin generates. For me, I have been using 16.5cm and 18cm Tribal assy fins lately for my best speed runs. The downside is that the 16.5 is a bit difficult to sail back upwind through the washing machine chop in 40+ knots of wind with a 5m sail. Thats probably just my lack of skill and fitness though.
Smaller sails should more efficient and allow the use of smaller fins. Fin size for anything less than pure speed seeking on a dedicated speed strip is always a compromise between max speed and control, both off the wind and sailing back. So yes, try a smaller fin for sure!

The one you missed: The type and design of your board also has a big influence on control over chop off the wind. Some designs are particularly good at minimising bounce and pitch and thus giving your fin and body a much easier task to cope with. Unfortunately, again there is no magic design for all conditions. There are always compromises, but you may be able to find a board that is better for your particular common conditions by trying as many as you can. You may have noticed that some board brands make dedicated 'speed' boards that seem very close in size to their smaller slalom boards. Often, these designs are more optimised for flatter running over downwind chop.

I hope this helps, Andrew

"The older I get, the better I was"

+1 on sailquiks comments
More finesse with your back foot in rough water. Particularly as you come over the top of swell, be ready to hold your back foot in.
Physics says your sail will provide power to accelerate you to your maximumum speed which will be limited by drag from sail, board and fin. As long as you're still powered up, I find smaller to be faster once planing

listen to the audio feedback from the GT-31 Genie. (It beeps at you as your average speed is increasing and stops when it is not
How do you get the GT 31 to do that? I have never heard mine make a sound while sailing even though the alarm is set to go off at 30 knots.

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2035 said..
Hi Guys

Apologies in advance of the lengthy post, but I need help/advice from you gurus

I know there's been a tonne of threads about how to improve speed and I've read most of them (many old ones that are now closed), but I still have a few questions around some things I'm struggling with in my quest to go faster


Background: I ride a 115ltr Tabou Rocket with twin-cam free-race sails and FO Nitros.

1. when I bare off I'm finding that running with the chop (small swell) in Botany Bay, than the board is far more susceptible to spinning out. It's main when I launch over the back (over take) the chop. As I come over the top of the chop the fin has a lot less grip on the water. If I stay on the power and don't back off when I approach a bigger lump, it's pretty scary and I never know if the tail's going to let go. If I do sheet out a bit and stand up straighter then I feel like I'm definitely loosing power. So, how do I handle the rolling lumps when heading down wind... what do you guys do? I have my front leg as straight as possible and my mast track in the middle.

2. What's the ideal angle off the wind for speed?

3. When baring off I'm still sheeting in hard (locked-in with the gap closed). While this feels where most of the power is, it confuses me, because I keep thinking that logically the more off the wind I sail the more I should be sheeting out to keep the sail square to the wind (in yachting it's called gull wing)... but in practice this doesn't feel as powerful or fast. I suspect this has something to do with "apparent wind"?? Is this where the top twisting off really helps (and thus more downhaul)?Can you guys please explain this for me and how apparent wind works when baring off for a speed run.

4. Yesterday I tried sailing with my mast track in the furthest back position. It felt good, but even in my inexperience I could tell it caused me to force more weight onto the back foot and load-up the fin way too much, resulting in a lot more spin out. So I moved it back to dead centre, which felt much better and controllable. How does mast track effect speed and heading?

5. My last few sessions I've been rigging one size bigger than I would normally be comfortable with because I've been told that bigger sails = more speed. However, yesterday, in just 20-25kts I decided to rig my 6m because I wanted to practice gybing, but in doing so I felt in perfect control and managed to get 4 PBs, including beating my 2 sec by >1 knt, which I previously achieved in exactly the same conditions only with a 7.1 (same sail make and model btw). I was also going faster than guys on 7.5 sails. So I'm now thinking that size doesn't matter... it's about control? What's you're take on this?

6. last question, do smaller fins have less drag and therefore go faster? I imagine they're more susceptible to spinout, but if I can figure out the answer to question 1, maybe I can use a smaller fin (assuming smaller is faster).

Thanks in advance of your sage advice.

Peace to ya,
Nige

You beat me to it . I was going to ask some similar questions re bearoff angles + stance..

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Windxtasy said..
listen to the audio feedback from the GT-31 Genie. (It beeps at you as your average speed is increasing and stops when it is not
How do you get the GT 31 to do that? I have never heard mine make a sound while sailing even though the alarm is set to go off at 30 knots.

Yep I'd like to know that too. I think I set the alarm for 31kts but I'm sure it goes off at 21..
Sailquik those angles 115 - 135 degrees -I'm assuming they are the same as the wind angles we'd have on our wind instruments on the boat where zero is at 12 oclock and 180 at 6pm possy's? If so 115 is nowhere near as much off the wind as I would have expected!
For those that know peel st ( and pref sailing terminology) what sort of angles do you find are best for bearaways?
Also Sailquick I'm using a much larger sail than a lot of the heavier guys ( and suffering after ) but feel I need that much just to try and get powered up and over 25kts.. Could that just be the bigger drag because I'm on a slower freemove 75cms wide board and they are on slaloms? Yesterday I was fighting the rig to get upwind and yet only got c < 28kts off the breeze.. ( board PB is 29.05 with me)

Sorry to hijack your thread Nigel..

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Windxtasy said..
listen to the audio feedback from the GT-31 Genie. (It beeps at you as your average speed is increasing and stops when it is not
How do you get the GT 31 to do that? I have never heard mine make a sound while sailing even though the alarm is set to go off at 30 knots.

Hi Anita. Turn it on like this (from Tom at Mtbest.net):

"Speed Genie Sound: GT31 Speed Genie provides bio-feedback sound/light indicators: acceleration, max n-second average speed increase and also audio-announces the max avg speed result. Sounds are designed for GT31 mounted inside the helmet to provide sailors audio-feedback so that they can focus their eyes on sailing to improve safety and maximize speeds. LED bio-feedback is designed for arm-mounted GT31. Set (ALERT>SPEED GENIE>ON) to enable Speed Genie helmet bio-feedback. If you need sound, set (ALERT>BUZZER>ON). The bio-feedback is delayed about ~2 seconds, due to the limited bandwidth of the GT31 Doppler system. Please see README file for details."

It may not be so easy to hear if you have the GPS arm mounted, but you may be able to see the LED flash. I have been using my GPS inside my helmet for a long time so it is easily audible. The only issue there is that with two GPS inside my helmet I have to make sure the sound is turned off on one of them or the messages are totally confusing! The speed readout at the end of the run is nice too, but I still have a strong urge to look at the display the moment I pull up for some reason! . If you are doing gybes and sailing straight back, depending on the threshold Genie setting, you can hear you top speed after every run before you accelerate through the Genie threshold again. I am pretty sure you would hear the genie pretty clearly with external helmet mounting as well.

One of the things on my wish list for a new, 'do it all, upgraded' GPS for speedsailing is the availability of audio feedback via waterproof bluetooth earphones!

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sboardcrazy said..
Yep I'd like to know that too. I think I set the alarm for 31kts but I'm sure it goes off at 21..
Sailquik those angles 115 - 135 degrees -I'm assuming they are the same as the wind angles we'd have on our wind instruments on the boat where zero is at 12 oclock and 180 at 6pm possy's? If so 115 is nowhere near as much off the wind as I would have expected!
For those that know peel st ( and pref sailing terminology) what sort of angles do you find are best for bearaways?
Also Sailquick I'm using a much larger sail than a lot of the heavier guys ( and suffering after ) but feel I need that much just to try and get powered up and over 25kts.. Could that just be the bigger drag because I'm on a slower freemove 75cms wide board and they are on slaloms? Yesterday I was fighting the rig to get upwind and yet only got c < 28kts off the breeze.. ( board PB is 29.05 with me)

Sorry to hijack your thread Nigel..

Hi Sue. Yes. The angle of the true wind in relation to your heading. So when sailing directly across the wind you are at 90 degrees. 115 degrees would be a rare optimum angle in marginal planing conditions. It been said before, but bears repeating, that the optimum angle is often deceptive. Many novice speed sailors don't sail broad enough to reach optimum speed because they feel like it is slower as pressure often feels less in the sail and on the fin. This is where watching you GPS while on the run, or good audio feedback can really help!

The type of board will make a very big difference to drag. Slalom and Speed rocker lines are very slippery and take less power to drive them. Feemove and Wave boards are often very draggy in comparison as they are optimised more for manoeuvrability and control in rough water where speed is a disadvantage. It is not always a blanket rule though as some older style wave boards could be very fast on flat water when you have enough wind to get them up on the short, narrow flat section of the tail.
Ditch the wide Freemove and get a smaller Slalom board! Then take a smaller sail and go faster!

Awesome feedback... thanks guys. Lots to think about and lots to improve upon, which is all part of the fun!

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sailquik said..

sboardcrazy said..
Yep I'd like to know that too. I think I set the alarm for 31kts but I'm sure it goes off at 21..
Sailquik those angles 115 - 135 degrees -I'm assuming they are the same as the wind angles we'd have on our wind instruments on the boat where zero is at 12 oclock and 180 at 6pm possy's? If so 115 is nowhere near as much off the wind as I would have expected!
For those that know peel st ( and pref sailing terminology) what sort of angles do you find are best for bearaways?
Also Sailquick I'm using a much larger sail than a lot of the heavier guys ( and suffering after ) but feel I need that much just to try and get powered up and over 25kts.. Could that just be the bigger drag because I'm on a slower freemove 75cms wide board and they are on slaloms? Yesterday I was fighting the rig to get upwind and yet only got c < 28kts off the breeze.. ( board PB is 29.05 with me)

Sorry to hijack your thread Nigel..

Hi Sue. Yes. The angle of the true wind in relation to your heading. So when sailing directly across the wind you are at 90 degrees. 115 degrees would be a rare optimum angle in marginal planing conditions. It been said before, but bears repeating, that the optimum angle is often deceptive. Many novice speed sailors don't sail broad enough to reach optimum speed because they feel like it is slower as pressure often feels less in the sail and on the fin. This is where watching you GPS while on the run, or good audio feedback can really help!

The type of board will make a very big difference to drag. Slalom and Speed rocker lines are very slippery and take less power to drive them. Feemove and Wave boards are often very draggy in comparison as they are optimised more for manoeuvrability and control in rough water where speed is a disadvantage. It is not always a blanket rule though as some older style wave boards could be very fast on flat water when you have enough wind to get them up on the short, narrow flat section of the tail.
Ditch the wide Freemove and get a smaller Slalom board! Then take a smaller sail and go faster!

Planning too ( although I'll keep it for Coal Pt chop)... meantime I've told Milsy he can use the freemove for a session to show me it's top possible speed while I use his Falcon .. I haven't seen his answer yet but I think I know what it will be as he tried it one day and wasn't impressed..

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sboardcrazy said.

Planning to ( although I'll keep it for Coal Pt chop)... meantime I've told Milsy he can use the freemove for a session to show me it's top possible speed while I use his Falcon .. I haven't seen his answer yet but I think I know what it will be as he tried it one day and wasn't impressed..

Sue, I think of my Sonic 85 slalom board as slow, because I struggle to get over 30 knots on it, but another member of my team, Snake, has the same board and fin and has done over 38 knots on it. He is a very efficient and skillful sailor.
I'm not saying you won't go faster on a slalom board but even on a slalom board sailor skill is a huge factor.

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sailquik said..

Windxtasy said..
listen to the audio feedback from the GT-31 Genie. (It beeps at you as your average speed is increasing and stops when it is not
How do you get the GT 31 to do that? I have never heard mine make a sound while sailing even though the alarm is set to go off at 30 knots.

Hi Anita. Turn it on like this (from Tom at Mtbest.net):

"Speed Genie Sound: GT31 Speed Genie provides bio-feedback sound/light indicators: acceleration, max n-second average speed increase and also audio-announces the max avg speed result. Sounds are designed for GT31 mounted inside the helmet to provide sailors audio-feedback so that they can focus their eyes on sailing to improve safety and maximize speeds. LED bio-feedback is designed for arm-mounted GT31. Set (ALERT>SPEED GENIE>ON) to enable Speed Genie helmet bio-feedback. If you need sound, set (ALERT>BUZZER>ON). The bio-feedback is delayed about ~2 seconds, due to the limited bandwidth of the GT31 Doppler system. Please see README file for details."

It may not be so easy to hear if you have the GPS arm mounted, but you may be able to see the LED flash. I have been using my GPS inside my helmet for a long time so it is easily audible. The only issue there is that with two GPS inside my helmet I have to make sure the sound is turned off on one of them or the messages are totally confusing! The speed readout at the end of the run is nice too, but I still have a strong urge to look at the display the moment I pull up for some reason! . If you are doing gybes and sailing straight back, depending on the threshold Genie setting, you can hear you top speed after every run before you accelerate through the Genie threshold again. I am pretty sure you would hear the genie pretty clearly with external helmet mounting as well.

One of the things on my wish list for a new, 'do it all, upgraded' GPS for speedsailing is the availability of audio feedback via waterproof bluetooth earphones!

Thanks Sailquick.
I don't have Speed genie as a choice under the alert heading. Only buzzer, over speed, altitude and target...

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Windxtasy said..

sboardcrazy said.

Planning to ( although I'll keep it for Coal Pt chop)... meantime I've told Milsy he can use the freemove for a session to show me it's top possible speed while I use his Falcon .. I haven't seen his answer yet but I think I know what it will be as he tried it one day and wasn't impressed..

Sue, I think of my Sonic 85 slalom board as slow, because I struggle to get over 30 knots on it, but another member of my team, Snake, has the same board and fin and has done over 38 knots on it. He is a very efficient and skillful sailor.
I'm not saying you won't go faster on a slalom board but even on a slalom board sailor skill is a huge factor.

One of the big issues with slalom boards is that they tend to be designed for big heavy world cup sailors in mind. So an 85 litre slalom board is probably designed to be used by a gorilla in 'victory at sea' conditions! That said, many of the newer designs are more small sailor friendly, although I still can't get any top speed out of my Isonic 110, the same board AA uses in 25 knots to wind races. For me it is a 12-16 knots board and therein lies the problem! It's a shame we can't get Polyurethane windsurfing blanks anymore as a small slalom for a lightweight sailor would be very easy and inexpensive to build. It would be very interesting for us to find out what boards some of the smaller girls on the World Cup Slalom use. I know Lena used Patrik boards and I am sure they are specifically designed for her weight and size just like her speed boards are. She does very well indeed on them. Second at Noumea and looked very well in control! . I am sure some of the local girls would have been using normal production boards. (All boards used must be registered production boards, but what I am saying is that some designers may bias their smaller boards more towards their smaller female sailors).
I was having a good look at a newish IS80 the other day and it looked like it would suit a smaller rider very well. I have not had a chance to ride it yet though.

Nice discussion. I am just starting to bear off downwind but have been very unsuccessful. What I find happening is that I start off on a broad reach, when comfortable, I see a bit of a gust, and start turning downwind. I then start to bend my back leg and keep my front leg straight, whilst keeping the body low. Then I feel the acceleration and so I keep low to counteract the power. Before I know it, the sail has lost any weight at all and I fall in backwards.

I've heard suggestions that I need to stand up, or point back upwind. But I just don't get it.

ps. I am a very low level gps sailor (27knot 2 sec is my pb).

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GrumpySmurf said..
Nice discussion. I am just starting to bear off downwind but have been very unsuccessful. What I find happening is that I start off on a broad reach, when comfortable, I see a bit of a gust, and start turning downwind. I then start to bend my back leg and keep my front leg straight, whilst keeping the body low. Then I feel the acceleration and so I keep low to counteract the power. Before I know it, the sail has lost any weight at all and I fall in backwards.

I've heard suggestions that I need to stand up, or point back upwind. But I just don't get it.

ps. I am a very low level gps sailor (27knot 2 sec is my pb).

That means you are bearing away too much for the wind strength and sail size. Sailing at Melville there isn't a lot of wind most of the time, and the gusts are short. You need to be really powered up to go deep off the wind for any distance.
You will increase sail pressure as you bear away and that is where you lean back to counteract the forward pull. Try bearing away just before you hit the gust so that it won't unsettle you as much. After you bear away, you will lose sail pressure. If it goes too light, square up a bit, and don't bear away as much next time. Try pulling down into the boom so the mast foot takes your weight rather than outward against the sail. Try not too fall in backwards. If you are going at speed and still holding onto the boom it can damage your shoulder.
I had the same problem with losing sail pressure at Safety Bay last Monday, and JJ said he did too - so it's not your experience but the lack of decent wind!

Wow... I nearly deleted my original post because I was worried about sounding like a kook (novice... which I am), but glad I didn't. Some really relevant feedback. Again, thanks guys!

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GrumpySmurf said..
>>>> Before I know it, the sail has lost any weight at all and I fall in backwards.

>>>>

What's probably happening is the sail is stalling because the angle of the leading edge of the sail is at too much of an angle to the apparent wind, so the air is not "clinging" to the sail but shooting out passed it.
I've got a sail that's very easy to do this with, it's got a fairly sharp leading edge and not a lot of shape above the boom. It often dumps me on my bum in the water if I'm not careful. The trick is to sheet out a bit as you bear off to keep the leading edge aligned with the apparent wind.

This effect can be much worse on non cambered sails, especially those that "switch off" hard. They need a fair bit of wind pressure to shape them up, as you go downwind, you always loose some wind pressure, if this falls below the amount needed to shape the sail, the leading edge will straighten up, causing instant stall.
The easiest sails to go deep downwind with are those with a cambered "knuckley" leading edge, they are much harder to stall.

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Windxtasy said..

GrumpySmurf said..
Nice discussion. I am just starting to bear off downwind but have been very unsuccessful. What I find happening is that I start off on a broad reach, when comfortable, I see a bit of a gust, and start turning downwind. I then start to bend my back leg and keep my front leg straight, whilst keeping the body low. Then I feel the acceleration and so I keep low to counteract the power. Before I know it, the sail has lost any weight at all and I fall in backwards.

I've heard suggestions that I need to stand up, or point back upwind. But I just don't get it.

ps. I am a very low level gps sailor (27knot 2 sec is my pb).

That means you are bearing away too much for the wind strength and sail size. Sailing at Melville there isn't a lot of wind most of the time, and the gusts are short. You need to be really powered up to go deep off the wind for any distance.
You will increase sail pressure as you bear away and that is where you lean back to counteract the forward pull. Try bearing away just before you hit the gust so that it won't unsettle you as much. After you bear away, you will lose sail pressure. If it goes too light, square up a bit, and don't bear away as much next time. Try pulling down into the boom so the mast foot takes your weight rather than outward against the sail. Try not too fall in backwards. If you are going at speed and still holding onto the boom it can damage your shoulder.
I had the same problem with losing sail pressure at Safety Bay last Monday, and JJ said he did too - so it's not your experience but the lack of decent wind!

I think you're right that I have beared away too much, and maybe too quickly.

Also, there is a point just after turning downwind where the board with almost squared on to the wind chop and starts bouncing - is there a way to manage this?

My 2nd best run of today was following Darryl who had just overtaken me and I could follow his line. WHAT A BLAST!! Then my best run was straight after that - unfortunately my outhaul rope broke then. I think the best thing to do would be to follow a better sailor in front and try and copy his/her technique. So I will be stalking you soon :)

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decrepit said..

GrumpySmurf said..
>>>> Before I know it, the sail has lost any weight at all and I fall in backwards.

>>>>

What's probably happening is the sail is stalling because the angle of the leading edge of the sail is at too much of an angle to the apparent wind, so the air is not "clinging" to the sail but shooting out passed it.
I've got a sail that's very easy to do this with, it's got a fairly sharp leading edge and not a lot of shape above the boom. It often dumps me on my bum in the water if I'm not careful. The trick is to sheet out a bit as you bear off to keep the leading edge aligned with the apparent wind.

This effect can be much worse on non cambered sails, especially those that "switch off" hard. They need a fair bit of wind pressure to shape them up, as you go downwind, you always loose some wind pressure, if this falls below the amount needed to shape the sail, the leading edge will straighten up, causing instant stall.
The easiest sails to go deep downwind with are those with a cambered "knuckley" leading edge, they are much harder to stall.

Yes, I think sheeting out as I'm bearing away is what I missed. I found that as I'm losing power in the sail, I naturally sheet in. I am using 08 vintage Code Red full race sails, so they have plenty of power.

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GrumpySmurf said..
Also, there is a point just after turning downwind where the board with almost squared on to the wind chop and starts bouncing - is there a way to manage this?

The best way to manage it is to avoid chop. That is why I am always telling the team where to go to find the flattest water?

My 2nd best run of today was following Darryl who had just overtaken me and I could follow his line. WHAT A BLAST!! Then my best run was straight after that - unfortunately my outhaul rope broke then. I think the best thing to do would be to follow a better sailor in front and try and copy his/her technique. So I will be stalking you soon :)

Definitely follow a better sailor (I find the main problem is keeping up!) You want to stalk someone better than me!


Yes, I think sheeting out as I'm bearing away is what I missed. I found that as I'm losing power in the sail, I naturally sheet in. I am using 08 vintage Code Red full race sails, so they have plenty of power.

Don't sheet out too much or your sail acts as a brake

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Windxtasy said..

GrumpySmurf said..
Also, there is a point just after turning downwind where the board with almost squared on to the wind chop and starts bouncing - is there a way to manage this?

The best way to manage it is to avoid chop. That is why I am always telling the team where to go to find the flattest water?

My 2nd best run of today was following Darryl who had just overtaken me and I could follow his line. WHAT A BLAST!! Then my best run was straight after that - unfortunately my outhaul rope broke then. I think the best thing to do would be to follow a better sailor in front and try and copy his/her technique. So I will be stalking you soon :)

Definitely follow a better sailor (I find the main problem is keeping up!) You want to stalk someone better than me!


Yes, I think sheeting out as I'm bearing away is what I missed. I found that as I'm losing power in the sail, I naturally sheet in. I am using 08 vintage Code Red full race sails, so they have plenty of power.

Don't sheet out too much or your sail acts as a brake

Yes I need to do that . I'm either on the opposite tack or can't get as upwind as them to do the run....Only problem with following a faster sailor is your sailing in their bumpy wake..