I seem to have reached a plateau where I can't improve any of my stats, if you look at some of my recent stats the only thing I seem to be improving is my Alpha's (as my gybes improve) where as my speeds don't seem to be improving. You can see some of them here:
www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=user&smnu=personalbest&uid=5072
www.gpsteamchallenge.com.au/sailor/view/2765

and I'm wondering whether it is down to:

My equipment:
I currently use a JP freestyle 100l board and larger wave sails most of the time or a 120l starboard carve with freeride sail. Now I don't expect to get record speeds but I would have guessed I would be able to get past the 25knot mark. Maybe that's not realistic?

Where I sail
I generally sail on lake Macquarie in NSW which isn't the best spot for flat water, so I do have to negotiate with chop and when a southerly hits there's generally some fairly large wind swell. But there are flatter spots and I think i'm alright at picking lines through the chop.

My technique:
I try to sail quite powered up, I'm comfortable in the straps etc.. I definitely think I'm not the slowest person out, but not the fastest too.

Anyone have any ideas? I'm not trying to break records, I just want to know if the speeds I've achieved are all I can expect given the points above?

Try sailing as deep off the wind as possible, on a windy day be sailing across the wind, then when you sea a darker patch of water signalling a stronger gust, bare-off down wind and hold on for at least 10 sec's , count 1001, 1002.........1010

Riggning tips, would be, have your sail reasonably full, not flat, use at least half a metre bigger than you think, and try moving mast track a centremetre back at a time...

The 2 biggest things that hold me back from reaching my potential are psychological being too timid, and always rigging too small, coz I'm timid

Freestyle boards don't have a great top speed,so don't compare your speeds to other people who are on different types of equipment.
Your speed is good for what you are using and you probably can out accelerate those that have faster top end. The windier it gets the more a freestyle board will struggle,so you will actually go slower because of the rougher water.
You alpha's are still improving,thats great,you are not plateauing .

But if you put a 30cm slalom fin in you will gain a few knots instantly,it changes the freestyle board completely ,you will also be able to hammer upwind allowing you to get more deep bearaway runs in ,in a session.The board will ride higher and handle chop far better. And as a bonus your jumping height will be much higher.But that is not comparing apples with apples.
The stock fin with the JP freestyle is a slug anyway.Nearly any other fin is better than that,too long for FS too thick for freeride.
You could always try (if you havn't already)higher boom,longer lines and mast track further back.
30 knots is not realistic for that board unless there are exceptional circumstances.

Agree with all the above.
3 things I think will make the most difference.
1. find flat water
2. go further off the wind
3. better fin
Good luck

Thanks for the info guys

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hardie said...

Try sailing as deep off the wind as possible, on a windy day be sailing across the wind, then when you sea a darker patch of water signalling a stronger gust, bare-off down wind and hold on for at least 10 sec's , count 1001, 1002.........1010

Good tips, I definitely think I try and bear away a lot, maybe I need to bear away more.

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hardie said...
Riggning tips, would be, have your sail reasonably full, not flat, use at least half a metre bigger than you think, and try moving mast track a centremetre back at a time...

I'll try rigging bigger, but the rest I think I am doing.

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hardie said...
The 2 biggest things that hold me back from reaching my potential are psychological being too timid, and always rigging too small, coz I'm timid

I'm definitely not psychologically challenged ... yet. I'm keen to go faster and don't feel near my limits ... yet!

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KA360 said...

Freestyle boards don't have a great top speed,so don't compare your speeds to other people who are on different types of equipment.

I'm not expecting too much, just a little more :-)

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KA360 said...
30 knots is not realistic for that board unless there are exceptional circumstances.

Thats good to know, I have something to aim for, unfortunately I'm only 2/3's of the way there.

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KA360 said...
But if you put a 30cm slalom fin in you will gain a few knots instantly,it changes the freestyle board completely ,you will also be able to hammer upwind allowing you to get more deep bearaway runs in ,in a session.The board will ride higher and handle chop far better. And as a bonus your jumping height will be much higher.But that is not comparing apples with apples.
The stock fin with the JP freestyle is a slug anyway.Nearly any other fin is better than that,too long for FS too thick for freeride.

That's great advice about the fins, I have generally been using the standard JP fin.

I also have a select Bump & Jump 33cm & a Prolimit 30cm freemove that I'll try and see if that makes any difference. If not, I'll see if I can source a slalom fin, a lot cheaper than a new board!

Hardie and Lao really know what they are talking about. I'm a relative beginner to speed sailing, but improving. My hint would be when you think you are bearing away you are not bearing away nearly enough. When you find a bit of flat water, bear away. When you think are bearing away, if you still have plenty of power in the sail bear away a bit more. You have to bear away a lot more than you'd think. If the sail is big enough for the conditions you should be almost over the end of the board 'cos you're pointing downwind so much. Flat water is critical to good speeds, or flying only on the fin so the water surface is irrelevant. Once the board starts bouncing around you've lost the chance of a top speed.
Look at your tracks on google earth and compare them to others who are getting good speeds. Compare the angle of the bear-away in particular.
Follow someone else who is fast and bear away at the same angle they do.

I guess I'd have to add get a cammed sail with plenty of power. Your only regret will be that you'll want more of them.

Hi, if you are looking for flat water in a southerly I'd recommend driving down to Canton Beach and going windsurfing there. You will need a weed fin as it is extremely weedy there. However the water is quite flat no matter how strong the wind is. The wind is quite consistent too as Canton Beach is at the northern end of a long lake.

I have similar issues so I am no expert, but I do notice that your distances are short. You might improve your chances of getting a stronger gust and higher 2sec if you stay out a bit longer. It's usually only one gust per session that gets you a new PB.

You'll also get more practice. Aim to get some Kms under your belt. Go for 40 and 50 (even more Kms) per session. If you're getting too tired to continue after 20Kms its a fair bet your setup is not right in some way.

There's nothing like doing heaps of GPS sailing to build your skills level.

IKW would know he goes out so much he has developed gills,webbed feet and hands

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ikw777 said...

I have similar issues so I am no expert, but I do notice that your distances are short. You might improve your chances of getting a stronger gust and higher 2sec if you stay out a bit longer. It's usually only one gust per session that gets you a new PB.

You'll also get more practice. Aim to get some Kms under your belt. Go for 40 and 50 (even more Kms) per session. If you're getting too tired to continue after 20Kms its a fair bet your setup is not right in some way.

There's nothing like doing heaps of GPS sailing to build your skills level.

Unfortunately time is one of the things that I don't have lots of, with two kids under 4. Most times I'm only able to get out for an hour (or two if I'm lucky).

30.04 kn on a 2 sec, flat water at PT Walter ( WA home of 2 sec) on a , wait for it, 2002 JP Freestyle Wave 94l. KA Koncept 2004 6.6m, 2nd year of windsurfing.

Secrets-
Flat water
fin Vector 30cm
someone to chase down the strip

Laoshi has a similiar story...37 knots ? i thinks

Toby there is a big difference between a freestyle wave and a freestyle.
Can you do 30 on a JP freestyle even though you now have more experience(even with a cambered sail)?

just agreeing with the experts on the essentials

"3 things I think will make the most difference.
1. find flat water
2. go further off the wind
3. better fin
Good luck"

could I do it on a freestyle board?- sounds like a challenge.
but one i wont take up, got an isonic 86 for the speed stuff,

you got a time machine so I can get on the water more often?
i think Adam wants one too!
(maybe a job for Neil pryde... )

removing your fin cover helps

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KA360 said...

.....But if you put a 30cm slalom fin in you will gain a few knots instantly,it changes the freestyle board completely ,you will also be able to hammer upwind allowing you to get more deep bearaway runs in ,in a session.The board will ride higher and handle chop far better....

......30 knots is not realistic for that board unless there are exceptional circumstances......

Agree absolutely. Get a fin oriented towards speed and bear off deep and try and push each run to the limit, you know, to the point where if you stack by catching a rail (or the like) you know it is going to turn out bad.

I dont know about JP freestyle, but my Freestyle board (2012 109L Fanatic Skate TE) moves! only sailed it 6 times but i love it. Here is one of those exceptional circumstances KA360 is talking about: 32.71kn 2sec 5 weeks ago at South West Rocks. 6.5m NP Firefly (yep, uncambered freestyle sail). Beam reach, real nice long flat/smooth section of water and 32cm freeride fin. I was purposely going for top speed and was hanging on giving it 110%, and on this particular run, overpowered (not grossly) but I let it run. I feel that was the limit on that gear, perhaps with a more slippery fin it would be a smidge quicker. Anyway, I would hammer upwind and just tack and hang on and go deep with the wind. try and do the same as KA360 mentions.

I have only used this board for gps in choppy water once (I usually rather sail it in the surf/ocean), and the best I have done on this one occasion on the same set up mentioned above is 27.82kn 2sec - may get to 30 (or closer to 30) with a more slippery fin in the choppier conditions. Not sure on the figure, but you can be sure i will be trying when the opportunity arises. KA360 is spot on, the freestyle board in chop requires a more upright stance to keep the width and shape and volume distribution under control, so the choppier it is the slower you go on any board, but perhaps it is accentuated more on freestyle due to the shape and the stance real choppy water requires on these boards.

I have been sailing 25 years but I am new to the GPS thing and focusing on speed when not fooling around at the beach, so I am learning lots of little speed hints from all of these threads on this part of the site.

Adam, you and I are the same height, but I must point out that have 15kgs on you, which on a wide tailed freestyle board is a big advantage to holding it down in the water on an overpowered PB run. Try the bigger fin as suggested and let us know how you go.

BTW in case anyone is interested, here is the review I did on my skate today: www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Review/Fanatic-Skate-109TE-2012-model/

Another reason a freestyle is handicaped is that it only has 3 straps. This makes you have a forward facing stance not the outboard stance of speed/slalom sailors.This also reduces the size of the fin that can be used and you don't have as much leverage to push against the fin .Because you can't get out board also can't hold as much sail area. Put too big a fin(what would be the normal size on the eqivelant volume slalom board) on a wide 3 straper and you can really get yourself in trouble
Still you might not be the fastest on the water,but your a freestyler which makes you the coolest

GO HARD,


OR


GO EARLY and get the hell out

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AJEaster said...
Agree absolutely. Get a fin oriented towards speed and bear off deep and try and push each run to the limit, you know, to the point where if you stack by catching a rail (or the like) you know it is going to turn out bad.

I dont know about JP freestyle, but my Freestyle board (2012 109L Fanatic Skate TE) moves! only sailed it 6 times but i love it. Here is one of those exceptional circumstances KA360 is talking about: 32.71kn 2sec 5 weeks ago at South West Rocks. 6.5m NP Firefly (yep, uncambered freestyle sail).

BTW in case anyone is interested, here is the review I did on my skate today: www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Review/Fanatic-Skate-109TE-2012-model/

Nice speeds, definitely gives me hope. Now to buy a better fin.

Good review too btw..

All good advice for you Adam. Keep at it. Realistically, if you whack a slalom fin in the otherwise same setup, follow all this sailing advice, you should be happy with 27-28 knots 10sec. Cracking 30knots in choppy water is a challenge - for anyone. The best I've managed is about 34knots 10sec. in one foot smooth chop in Port Phillip Bay, 25 knots of wind, but that was using a pro model Carbon Art Slalom, 23cm speed fin and 5.0 Koncept and sailing broadish.

My advice is change one thing at a time, try it, if it works, try the next thing and keep going. Don't try and change everything at once - it can hurt!

I agree with all the above, especially about the fin.

When you bear away *with less outhaul than usual), dont over-sheet the sail as this will slow you down. Let the sail out a bit as you are changing your angle to the wind so you need to change the angle of the sail - i.e keep as much of it showing to the wind as possible.

Keep the sail locked in across the wind and look for the gust, as you approach the gust shift your weight over your back leg kicking the nose of the board round slightly, and let the gust accelerate you (remember the sail should not be oversheeted, dont have your back hand too far down the boom, let the wind move the sail out a bit, if you pull in at this point you lose the power), maintain this heading for the next gust and repeat.

When you think and feel like you are going fast - you are slow. When it feels effortless and the sail goes light dont worry you are not slowing down....you are going fast. Its a strange experience and I would say one of the first stages of speedsurfing to get through.

What I mean is when the sail feels full of power and you are fighting it, it can feel like you are going really fast, which more often than not is not the case. When the sail goes light you feel like you are going slower due to the lack of pull but keep going and dont back off thinking you need to get upwind before the power dies, it could be your fastest run. Try counting as well, 500m count to 30, 10secs.....obviously count to......erm.....

When you experience it you will understand what I am trying to explain.

I am far from an expert, these are just my findings since starting myself a year ago (on a Kode112l which has inboard straps and is freestyle/wave.....32.12knot peak on it) and the wisdom of one of the fastest guys in the UK that I sail with, part through watching him.

I also agree with the statement ....... when you think you have bore off bear off some more.....but do it with the gust. A big learning point for me was playing around on the water and trying to not let him overtake me, I then understood how deep off the wind he goes and saw how he let the sail out a bit as the angle to the wind gets greater.

Hope that helps and good luck

I'd like to try and get some speed out of my Tabou Rockets but I find I spend half my life just trying to get upwind enough to beam reach.I lose a lot on each gybe.I rarely get to really go off the wind..[}:)]. I think I'd be really slow..

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sboardcrazy said...

I'd like to try and get some speed out of my Tabou Rockets but I find I spend half my life just trying to get upwind enough to beam reach.I lose a lot on each gybe.I rarely get to really go off the wind..[}:)]. I think I'd be really slow..

With my Rockets I can get about 26 knots out of the 140, it seems to have a bit of a top end limit for me though its very comfortable to ride. My best speed so far for the 105 is just under 29 knots over two seconds. I think it could easily get over 30 knots with the right sailor and the right conditions.

In regards to whats holding me back? The water state is a huge factor. This week I windsurfed on very choppy water with a reasonable swell at Port Stephens. It was a lot of fun but much more difficult to go faster.

I have a JP FSW 92L. I regularly get it over 30 knots in medium chop (but it gets scary!!), but I recently had a sail in a very flat water location. Straightup, first run I was doing 33 knots with a best peak in the day of just under 34. If the wind was a little stronger, I am confident I could have gone faster, as I was not fully powered up and was wanting for more power. This was with a FO 28cm weedfin, and a N Hellcat 6.2 freeride sail. Typcially the guys on speed gear (speed/slalom boards/sails) go around 2 (+/-1) knots quicker than me. I don't think these types of boards are the best for speed, but they are not bad, and will hold their own.

Flat water makes all the difference. Then just gear tuning, technique, and a lucky gust!! But I would definately suggest practise... My typical session is 60-110kms. Get out there and resist the urge for a rest. Just keep going. I did 72kms in a 2.5 hour session the other day.