For example if nose fly too much,what would I first set up?

move mast foot forward
reduced downhaul
put footstraps forward
or
lower the boom

Every of this changes ,change everything else,so what is correct order when tunning?

(e) None of the above.

PEBEB - problem exists between boom and board.

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mathew said..
(e) None of the above.

PEBEB - problem exists between boom and board.

Something clever?

I think the question itself is a bit too reductionist. It implies that every rigging situation can be mathematically described and variables ranked in importance.
I like to think of rigging as a multivariate problem without one single optimal solution but several discrete solutions (or sweet spots) that may work for different people or different situations. As a consequence, changing one variable as you suggest can have very different impact, depending on your starting point.
I'm 198cm tall and weigh 90kg, my wingspan is 212cm. I have never been able to just pick up someones "well adjusted" rig and feel comfortable with it. Friends would say the same about trying to use my gear.
With different gear I have found various solutions that help me control the board. With my speed board and a large sail (7.1m) I found that dropping the boom by 5cm gave the desired result. When I tried the same approach for a 6.3 or a 5.6 there were adverse consequences in the way I loaded up on deep bearaways. For these sails I found that moving the mast forward a few cm and simultaneously raising the boom a few cm to account for the change in reach has been the optimal solution, especially at speed in choppy conditions.

Short answer, you should try all those approaches and see what works best for "you".

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hotlap said..
For example if nose fly too much,what would I first set up?

move mast foot forward
reduced downhaul
put footstraps forward
or
lower the boom

Every of this changes ,change everything else,so what is correct order when tunning?

A few things:

1. Only ever change one thing at a time, otherwise you may fix your problem but you won't know what it was that fixed it.
2. Seemingly tiny adjustments can make a big difference, particularly mast-base position
3. If the nose if flying up it may be that your fin is too big

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AUS1111 said..

1. Only ever change one thing at a time, otherwise you may fix your problem but you won't know what it was that fixed it.

Yes but if I can fix problem with more options,which one to choose?
for example if I must put nose down ,I can do it with moving mast base forward or with lower boom, which change I must choose FIRST?etc ...

Do whichever one you want first, if that doesn't work do the other one. If that doesn't work do both... or combination... and so on. That's the great thing about this sport there is no perfect formula!!

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Mr Keen said..
Do whichever one you want first, if that doesn't work do the other one. If that doesn't work do both... or combination... and so on. That's the great thing about this sport there is no perfect formula!!

Yes but allways exist posibility that even if I fix the problem I change wrong thing,so tunning is not ideal as it could be.

It never is ideal... things change... wind, water state, attitude. Don't overthink it!! Keep a note of what works given the situation. TOW

This thread is pretty much the same question.



www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Gps/Tuning-question?page=1#11

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hotlap said..
Every of this changes ,change everything else,so what is correct order when tuning?

I think this is a very valid question. Judging by the responses so far, though, there is not really an easy answer.

Even the pros, with lots of tuning and racing experience, spend a lot of time tuning when they get new gear (like several hours for a board-sail combo). That's often done racing against someone with similar skills so the the effect of tuning on speed. Sometimes, what feels better may be slower - although at amateur level, that's less likely to be the case.

A lot of it is based on experience - in other words, lots of trial and error until you start understanding the patterns. As AUS1111 said, change one thing at a time in small increments, and see if you feel the change. Keep changing until things get worse, then dial the change back.
Then go back to the starting position, and change something else (e.g. boom height instead of mast foot) the same way. Finally, fix one in the "best" position, and try changing the other again a bit to see if that improves things further.

One thing that can be really helpful is to sail the gear of a better windsurfer who has the tuning right. That can show you how things should feel. Even just sailing with better windsurfers, and getting feedback on your trim and sailing, can be very helpful. If you don't have others around you, plan on a trip to Lake George next summer .

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boardsurfr said..

Sometimes, what feels better may be slower - although at amateur level, that's less likely to be the case.

Lots of time I hear it is hard to sail etc..
Who cares if its faster!!
Slalom board is harder to sail than freeride,but that doesnt mean you must stick with easier one.
You cant win slalom race with freeride board.

There is no progression without inovation even with price for harder sailing..

If no inovation we will still be on 3.5 long narrow slow boards from 1970s!
So keep pushing regardless of comfort.
There is no progress without hard work.

I would go from the quickest tweak to the most time consuming:
easiest is boom height, then outhaul, mast foot, downhaul and last footstrap position.
Consider also eating more chips
There you go !

Last week, out in a typical Gold Coast gusty westerly, 5 to 35kts, I rigged the 6.2 and 115 ltr board. The board was lifting badly in the gusts. After raising the boom 15mm, adding 10mm downhall and moving the mast base forward 15mm, it settled down nicely. Like Mr Keen said, these adjustments are now stored in the memory bank for the next gusty westerly.

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John340 said..
. After raising the boom 15mm, adding 10mm downhall and moving the mast base forward 15mm, it settled down nicely. Like Mr Keen said, these adjustments are now stored in the memory bank for the next gusty westerly.

After raising the boom 15mm-that help nose to fly more
, adding 10mm downhall and moving-that aslo helop nose to fly more
moving the mast base forward 15mm-this adjustment fix your problem


So baiscly your first two adjustment was not neccesary?
so if you have "correct order",than you will fix problem at first try and without changging other settings

Pardon my dyslexia, I lowered the boom 15mm.

Adding downhaul increases control (as long as you don't overdo it)

My order is
1 Lower boom
2. Increase downhaul
3. Move mast base forward
4 Reduce fin

I never touch my foot straps.

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John340 said..
Pardon my dyslexia, I lowered the boom 15mm.

Adding downhaul increases control (as long as you don't overdo it)

My order is
1 Lower boom
2. Increase downhaul
3. Move mast base forward
4 Reduce fin

I never touch my foot straps.

But if you just move mast base forward enough you will again fix the problem?

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hotlap said..

John340 said..
Pardon my dyslexia, I lowered the boom 15mm.

Adding downhaul increases control (as long as you don't overdo it)

My order is
1 Lower boom
2. Increase downhaul
3. Move mast base forward
4 Reduce fin

I never touch my foot straps.

But if you just move mast base forward enough you will again fix the problem?

He didn't just want to get the nose down, john tuned his gear to increase the range of his gear. Try sailing that day ,beginners shouldn't even be on the water.5 kn to 35kn not kidding. The best way to learn to tune is not here in a forum, get out on the water and sail with or behind someone who is similar speed. One sailor doesn't change anything the other does to see or feel any differences .everyone one is different.

You simply adjust gear to conditions ...I reckon John knows what he is talking about .his adjustments are simular to mine when sailing overpowered ,and increasing control in those conditions .

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hotlap said..

So baiscly your first two adjustment was not neccesary?
so if you have "correct order",than you will fix problem at first try and without changging other settings

If you were to map out all of the controls we have at our disposal (eg. downhaul, outhaul, mast position, boom height, harness length, fin size etc) against the performance attributes we're trying to optimise (ie. nose height, location of COE, fin pressure, power, sensitivity to sheeting angle) you will see that there are NO ONE-TO-ONE RELATIONSHIPS. You change one control, you mess with several performance attributes.

For example, if I move the mast base forward without adjusting anything else, I am also moving the COE forward and the sail is also further away from me. The end result is that I end up with more front leg pressure and tire quickly as I'm using a lot of core strength to manage the fact that the COE is not squarely between my feet anymore. The harness lines will feel the wrong length as well. This can be counterbalanced by raising the boom a bit and raking the rig a bit further. Suddenly the rig is not so far away and the COE comes back into place. The nett effect is still an decrease in nose lift, but we've had to use other controls to manage characteristics that were upset by this change.

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Jetlag said..

For example, if I move the mast base forward without adjusting anything else, I am also moving the COE forward and the sail is also further away from me. The end result is that I end up with more front leg pressure and tire quickly as I'm using a lot of core strength to manage the fact that the COE is not squarely between my feet anymore. The harness lines will feel the wrong length as well. This can be counterbalanced by raising the boom a bit and raking the rig a bit further. Suddenly the rig is not so far away and the COE comes back into place. The nett effect is still an decrease in nose lift,

If you do that, your c.g. comes back again at initial postion- didnt move more forward ,so how nett effect is decreasing nose lift?
You end up with more raked sail compare to initial position,which reduce lift slope(reduced sail power) and lower COE,which gives less pitching moment (using external forces freebody diagram ,thrust force x COE lever arm )so nett effect is increase nose lift..

Hotlap, check out this video. It pretty much answers all your questions