the three elements you need for speed: Wind, water and land.
A cross-section through a natural speed strip:

http://picasaweb.google.dk/Tilmann.Heinig/KnickRigg#5243193571128674274

Hi Dr Speed.

Nice to see some people from out of Australia coming to Seabreeze. How did you find this site?

Yes what you say is correct. Where I learned to windsurf, Nambucca Heads it was great to get some speed in the estuary. Unfortunately the river is now silted up with sand and the place is almost unsailable.

How fast have you been able to sail?

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Mobydisc said...

Hi Dr Speed.

Nice to see some people from out of Australia coming to Seabreeze. How did you find this site?

Yes what you say is correct. Where I learned to windsurf, Nambucca Heads it was great to get some speed in the estuary. Unfortunately the river is now silted up with sand and the place is almost unsailable.

How fast have been able to sail?

There's 1 element that Tilmann forgets to mention and that's Ground effect, and on the GPS-SS forum he has been very derogatory about windsurfing and his views on Ground effect. Check this post out : www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=forum&forum=1&val=8888

Lets keep the discussion to the technical elements of speed and not an opportunity to become anti-windsurfing.

I didn't realise that the governing body had reduced the minimum depth to 10 cm, or half the beam, whichever is greater.

This seems far more sensible than the 50 cm proposed before, and honestly I can't see how anyone would have a problem with this rule...

10 cm is pretty shallow!

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nebbian said...


This seems far more sensible than the 50 cm proposed before, and honestly I can't see how anyone would have a problem with this rule...

Tilmann does - although to do 50+knots in 3cm of water takes some balls even if the kite tends to lessen the impact if one fu#ks up.

then again watching the video of slowboat et al in Greece recently shows how talented these guys at the top really are (on GPSSS there's a thread with the video link)

So therefore the 3 elements of speed are
WIND,
WATER,
& BALLS

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Mobydisc said...

Hi Dr Speed.

How fast have you been able to sail?

Pretty f'n quick:



(If that video doesn't work then go here: )

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nebbian said...

Mobydisc said...

Hi Dr Speed.

How fast have you been able to sail?

Pretty f'n quick:

He's also pretty funny. Dr Speed on GPSSS

"Nobody forces you to use that bunch of booms and poles with unpredictable leverage and as a counterpoise long foils deep under water with permanent danger of sudden ventilation&cavitation. Against kiters you have no chance anymore with that old-fashioned and finally uncontrollable way of sailing. Everybody knows it.
So in the sense of the spirit of speedsailing: Why don’t you simply stop it?"

A good point I thought why do we sail these fully loaded giant planing rat traps?

His diagram of the 3 elements does show that from a philosophical point of view you can't really separate the advantages of solid land upwind from that of solid land down below.

Tilman,

On a sailboard we actually fly the board in air as a functional wing. I actually prefer to fly an advanced, wind-powered wing-in-ground effect plane/boat, than be dragged along on a plank.

I see your form of kiting like those nutcases on skim boards and finless surfboards being towed by cars along shallow beaches. Different game. Different feeling. Not that interested.

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slowboat said...



On a sailboard we actually fly the board in air as a functional wing. I actually prefer to fly an advanced, wind-powered wing-in-ground effect plane/boat, than be dragged along on a plank.

I see your form of kiting like those nutcases on skim boards and finless surfboards being towed by cars along shallow beaches. Different game. Different feeling. Not that interested.

Are you Qualified to respond here? What would you know about speed? What are your credentials? Have you ever done 50kts,....... oh yeh....... you have... oops...... I forgot Oh yeh, I forgot there was also vicious rolling chop at the end of that run too ........ and Oh yeh, and I forgot you can do over 40kts in wild choppy conditions too Oh well maybe you are qualified to respond afterall How embarrassment

I have been watching this 'debate' and while I understand what both sides are saying.... to be honest I dont really care

You cant compare Apples (kites) and Oranges (windsurfers). Thats why at the car races they have different categories.

All I care about is how fast I can go with the equipment I have. I dont give a rats a$$ about ground effect, wave effect, wind effect...for that matter any damn effect.

I have no interest in comparing what I do to what a kiter does as regard to speed. Good on him if he can break 50 knots. That speed record would have no bearing on what I consider to be a sailing record.

The debate is interesting but I cant help but feel that it becomes detrimental to the overall sport when people start getting a bit carried away and insults begin to fly.

If there are two of the very few people who have done over 50 knots here,and they are prepared to discuss their differences...then I would call that interesting.

I don't care how this argument goes either way. I do however remember back when Fred Heywood broke the 30knot barrier at Weymouth there was a kite powered craft even way back then. They were considered acceptable craft by the speed sailing governing body back then so I don't really see why they should be being singled out now. They've been around for ages and will continue to be. Whether they are considered sailing craft or not is always going to be open to debate. They both harness the wind to get their momentum and both travel on water. I say tomato you say tomato. My one comment I do want to make is seeing that 2 guys who will be competing at Luderitz Speed Challenge have both done ridiculous 2 sec max speeds, one guy a 57 knotter and the other a 56. No windsurfer as far as I know have popped that barrier yet. In anyones sailing language thems is mighty fast speeds.
Let the debate rage on!!!

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sick_em_rex said...

I don't care how this argument goes either way. I do however remember back when Fred Heywood broke the 30knot barrier at Weymouth there was a kite powered craft even way back then. They were considered acceptable craft by the speed sailing governing body back then so I don't really see why they should be being singled out now. They've been around for ages and will continue to be. Whether they are considered sailing craft or not is always going to be open to debate. They both harness the wind to get their momentum and both travel on water. I say tomato you say tomato. My one comment I do want to make is seeing that 2 guys who will be competing at Luderitz Speed Challenge have both done ridiculous 2 sec max speeds, one guy a 57 knotter and the other a 56. No windsurfer as far as I know have popped that barrier yet. In anyones sailing language thems is mighty fast speeds.
Let the debate rage on!!!

Sick em,
I don't think the debate is about whether a kite is an acceptable sailing craft but rather whether utilising ground effect constitutes sailing in the pure sense. Nothing stops a kiter going for the record as long as he /she is "sailing" in the required depth of water (where ground effect is not a factor).

Someone please correct me if this is wrong.

No probs Sausage. The spot where the two guys did their 56 and 57 knot peaks was at Luderitz in the required 50cm deep of water.

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sick_em_rex said...

No probs Sausage. The spot where the two guys did their 56 and 57 knot peaks was at Luderitz in the required 50cm deep of water.

Sick em,
My understanding is that with the recent rule amendment, technically if a kiteboard is 20cm wide then effectively they will be allowed to sail in 10cm of water to go for "official" world record. Likewise if a sailboard is 40cm wide the minimum depth is set at 20cm.

So maybe someone at Luderitz will claim new world record as recognised by the governing body - personally disappointing that a sailboarder may lose the outright record (because I'm so biased) but I suppose you've got to give credit where credits due.

I cannot understand Dr Speed's utter dismissal of the depth rule which appeared to be a fairly equitable resolution. Maybe I have missed something critical in his argument.

I agree, I am biased too and will be sad to see the record potentially go to a kiter. Remember too that the 2 riders I am talking about have only done peak speeds that high and not the recommended 500m distance so we'll have to wait and see what happens over the next few weeks of the challenge!
Luckily Bjorn Dunkerbeck is attending the event to at least try and uphold the Sailboarders flag and keep them in the mix of the record hunting.

The CSRIO was recently commissioned to develop a new strain of weed for the Mandurah estuary to help combat excess nutrients and tidal damage created by the rising sea levels. This new weed looks to have some HUGE benefits for the WA speed sailing community.

This new weed variation is designed to grow to the surface of the water (of depths up to 1.5m) and sit on the surface inhibiting chop.
The weed has a slimy coating giving it a lower coefficient of friction than ice which allows it slide by pointer fins with out obstructing them and will actually assist the board slide over the water.
An added benifit is that it inhibits Algae growth whilst removing the excess nutrients and provides increased oxygen in the water. It is also proving to be beneficial as a fish breeding ground.

The only draw back is that crabs can get trapped in it and die, although I personally don't see the problem with these fiendish little mongrels meeting their demise there.

We will keep you posted

Whatever happens in the future, whomever holds the record, whether ground effect is in or out, the thrill of windsurfing at speed will never change, it will always be exhilirating.

The most exciting feeling I've ever had (probably in my whole life) was doing 37kts in chop at Howard's Way,..... I can still feel the sensations in my body,........ I'm wondering whether I'll ever beat or experience that feeling again? Pushing your mind and body beyond what it has ever been capable of before?........ I know I'll probably go faster one day, in flatter/smoother water,.... but the the thrill and mastery of controlling a board at speed over chop, getting airborne from second to second, controlling it and most of all surviving it, it was like it took all of my 25 years of my windsurfing to come together for me to experience that moment. Nothing can take that moment away from me, yet most people in the speed world wouldn't be too impressed with a 37kt run. It's the personal experience that you own that is the key, only a few elites can go for the big prizes, the rest of us have personal experiences.

Hardie,
hear hear - I think you speak for the majority of us. This is the core principle of why we keep coming back for more, whether it be 20kn, 30kn, or for the select few 40+ knots.

Elmo,
So therefore the 3 elements of speed might just become WWW
Wind
Water &
Weed

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sick_em_rex said...


. . have both done ridiculous 2 sec max speeds, one guy a 57 knotter and the other a 56. No windsurfer as far as I know have popped that barrier yet.

. . .

I believe that these two 2 second maximum speeds are probably unsustainable for kites over longer distances. This is akin to waterskiing, where the boat "whips" you around when it changes direction. I would suspect that, soon after these high max. speeds were logged, there would be a a period where the recorded speeds would be quite low (or, relatively low). Somewhat like a pendulum, which is repeatedly accelerating from rest to the low point(is it called the nadir?), and then decellerating to rest at the opposite end of its swing.

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nebbian said...

I didn't realise that the governing body had reduced the minimum depth to 10 cm, or half the beam, whichever is greater.

Does that mean that Macquarie Innovation can't sail at Sandy Point anymore? I'm not sure of it's dimensions, but surely it's 30-40 feet wide?

Out of left field - what would happen if a small helium balloon with a manned pod/basket was launched from water in say 80 knts of wind (anchored, which is cut at appropriate time) with a fin (or two) in the water (very slightly steerable using fins) from the bottom of the pod - with an appropriate run up to the start of the measured run it would nearly approach the wind speed - would that count as a sailing speed record?

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TonyC said...

Out of left field - what would happen if a small helium balloon with a manned pod/basket was launched from water in say 80 knts of wind (anchored, which is cut at appropriate time) with a fin (or two) in the water (very slightly steerable using fins) from the bottom of the pod - with an appropriate run up to the start of the measured run it would nearly approach the wind speed - would that count as a sailing speed record?

Let's do it!

Who's in?

I was thinking of that priest in South America - helium balloons tied to a plastic chair - hmmmmmm, did he make the Darwin awards

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elmo said...

The CSRIO was recently commissioned to develop a new strain of weed for the Mandurah estuary to help combat excess nutrients and tidal damage created by the rising sea levels. This new weed looks to have some HUGE benefits for the WA speed sailing community.

This new weed variation is designed to grow to the surface of the water (of depths up to 1.5m) and sit on the surface inhibiting chop.
The weed has a slimy coating giving it a lower coefficient of friction than ice which allows it slide by pointer fins with out obstructing them and will actually assist the board slide over the water.
An added benifit is that it inhibits Algae growth whilst removing the excess nutrients and provides increased oxygen in the water. It is also proving to be beneficial as a fish breeding ground.

The only draw back is that crabs can get trapped in it and die, although I personally don't see the problem with these fiendish little mongrels meeting their demise there.

We will keep you posted

Ahhhh. the WEED effect! Ban it!
Oh wait. can I go faster on it? Yes? Nah forget banning. I want to just go reaaaal fast!!

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Bristol said...

sick_em_rex said...


. . have both done ridiculous 2 sec max speeds, one guy a 57 knotter and the other a 56. No windsurfer as far as I know have popped that barrier yet.

. . .

I believe that these two 2 second maximum speeds are probably unsustainable for kites over longer distances. This is akin to waterskiing, where the boat "whips" you around when it changes direction. I would suspect that, soon after these high max. speeds were logged, there would be a a period where the recorded speeds would be quite low (or, relatively low). Somewhat like a pendulum, which is repeatedly accelerating from rest to the low point(is it called the nadir?), and then decellerating to rest at the opposite end of its swing.

Good theory Bristol, but the top windsurfing speed guys say they can't do that. Watching David Trewern pulling 46-47 knots at sandy he was holding the kite very, very still.

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sailquik said...

. . . he was holding the kite very, very still. . . .

I suppose that I am just trying to rationalise why a kite might be clocked at 56 or 57 knots over 2 seconds, but not over 500 metres. Perhaps, I should have used a "slingshot" analogy.

Imagine the kite is travelling only horizontally (not flying in a figure 8 pattern), and it takes a massive hit. Imagine some of this hit is translated into extra horizontal motion, and some into vertical. The sailor will be accelerated by two forces now, including gravity, because gravity wants him to stay on the water. The sailor is, for a brief period, being slung. He is a pendulum bob, accelerating downwards. But the upward motion of the kite cannot be sustained, because the lines are fixed in length, and the kite becomes overhead.

If kiters wanted to capitalise on these pendular forces over 500 metres, they might try sailing with very long lines. This would require great skill, and an enormous amount of guts. If it went tragically wrong, those guts might become all too evident.

Personally, I define "fast" as somewhere in the mid twenties, and have respect for you who exceed that day in, day out. If I were to exceed my "fast", it would be accidental, and tears and pain would inevitably follow.

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I suppose that I am just trying to rationalise why a kite might be clocked at 56 or 57 knots over 2 seconds, but not over 500 metres. Perhaps, I should have used a "slingshot" analogy.

This has been discussed many time before on here and on GPSSS. The general consensus is that it would be rather simple to strap a GPS to the kite as well. Then use the average value from both GPS's to determine the speed.

Hey guys,

I want to add one thing. Kiters can effectively sail on mudflats and with water used as a lubricant can go fricking fast as well. Sailing? I guess not. Kitesurfing? Sure. Finally I had a discussion with Tilmann and for the first time in month at least he spoke out about certain things without calling me names and insulting people all the time. To me he lost all credibility as a competitor and all admiration I had for him and his effort before has vanished into thin air. I am not trying to set up a discussion once again, just want to share my thought and let it be.

The WSSRC rule isn't flawless but it's a workable soution which is fair to all. I love the feeling and for the kiters in Luderitz I hope they will succeed. I'm betting they will win, I ill aplaud them and get back to windsurfing.

Hey Martin,
good to hear your thoughts. I hope your leg is all better now and you will be very soon again breaking 50 knots.
By the way, if indeed as your profile says, you have moved to Australia may I invite you to join a little group of speedsailors called the Cockroaches. We're the ones wallowing midfield in the T1 GPS challenge. I'd welcome your posts anytime mate
And if you haven't moved to Australia I'm more than happy to make you an honorary Cockroach and let you post your speeds anyway I'm sure the organisers of the challenge won't mind a bit

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mvm said...


I want to add one thing. Kiters can effectively sail on mudflats and with water used as a lubricant can go fricking fast as well.

You cannot sail fast on a lubricant, because it does not provide sufficiant lateral resistance.