Hi all - just wondering for wondering sake what the average speed difference would be between:

1 - a freeride board with freeride fin and RAF sail

versus

2 - a slalom board with slalom fin and cam sail

cheers

1. 30 - 40 knots
2. 35 - 45 knots

So much depends on the user and location. Put 99.99% of drivers in a formula one car and they wouldn't get off the start line, let alone take the car to the limits of it's capabilities.

Similarly put almost any modern compatible windsurfing kit together and give it to a professional windsurfer and they will be able to sail it to it's limits.

I'm not trying to rehash an old thread about RAF versus slalom but for my personal use I get plenty of enjoyment (and speed) from a combination of freeride & slalom setups.

If you are purely chasing top speed perhaps consider other things first like your fitness and strength, your weight, how big of a set of balls you have. Speed is so much more than what gear you use.

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Belly25 said..
So much depends on the user and location. Put 99.99% of drivers in a formula one car and they wouldn't get off the start line, let alone take the car to the limits of it's capabilities.

Similarly put almost any modern compatible windsurfing kit together and give it to a professional windsurfer and they will be able to sail it to it's limits.

I'm not trying to rehash an old thread about RAF versus slalom but for my personal use I get plenty of enjoyment (and speed) from a combination of freeride & slalom setups.

If you are purely chasing top speed perhaps consider other things first like your fitness and strength, your weight, how big of a set of balls you have. Speed is so much more than what gear you use.

All true, but I think it's more dependent on conditions, if you've got 30kts and mirror smooth water any reasonable sailor can go fast on most gear. It's when chop enters the equation that real ability starts to show. And where equipment also has a greater difference.

You have to keep in mind that freeride boards have more rocker and slalom boards are generally a lot flatter, which typically equates to a greater top end, chop permitting.

All things being equal (rider skill, conditions etc), I reckon in nicely powered up to over powered conditions, slalom kit is about 15% faster. Doesn't sound like much, but when some overtakes you doing even just 3 or 4 knots more, it looks/feels like they left you for dead!!!!!

Kind of depends on skill level and conditions... a pro will be faster on slalom gear in ideal conditions because they can control it. I think the lumpier it becomes the less the advantage. I point to Guy Cribb who came 6th in the Lancelin Ocean Classic using a borrowed freeride board with a RAF rig, beating many VERY capable sailors on slalom gear. If you sail in less than perfect conditions and have less than perfect skills - I reckon freeride gear will give you a better outcome.

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paddymac said..
Kind of depends on skill level and conditions... a pro will be faster on slalom gear in ideal conditions because they can control it. I think the lumpier it becomes the less the advantage. I point to Guy Cribb who came 6th in the Lancelin Ocean Classic using a borrowed freeride board with a RAF rig, beating many VERY capable sailors on slalom gear. If you sail in less than perfect conditions and have less than perfect skills - I reckon freeride gear will give you a better outcome.

Patrick - I reckon because Guy Cribb is such a good sailor he can go as fast on freeride gear.

I think non-professional sailors will do 35 knots in chop more easily on slalom gear than freeride gear.

Freeride boards will do 35 knots in chop with fast small fins but it will be a pretty twitchy ride

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azymuth said..

paddymac said..
Kind of depends on skill level and conditions... a pro will be faster on slalom gear in ideal conditions because they can control it. I think the lumpier it becomes the less the advantage. I point to Guy Cribb who came 6th in the Lancelin Ocean Classic using a borrowed freeride board with a RAF rig, beating many VERY capable sailors on slalom gear. If you sail in less than perfect conditions and have less than perfect skills - I reckon freeride gear will give you a better outcome.

Patrick - I reckon because Guy Cribb is such a good sailor he can go as fast on freeride gear.

I think non-professional sailors will do 35 knots in chop more easily on slalom gear than freeride gear.

Freeride boards will do 35 knots in chop with fast small fins but it will be a pretty twitchy ride

I find slalom boards in chop require me to be fitter than freerides as you have to be prepared to be committed and go for it and not ease off..

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paddymac said..
Kind of depends on skill level and conditions... a pro will be faster on slalom gear in ideal conditions because they can control it. I think the lumpier it becomes the less the advantage. I point to Guy Cribb who came 6th in the Lancelin Ocean Classic using a borrowed freeride board with a RAF rig, beating many VERY capable sailors on slalom gear. If you sail in less than perfect conditions and have less than perfect skills - I reckon freeride gear will give you a better outcome.

Yep, it all depends on the specific circumstances. Wind, water state, whether your are powered up or not, the combination of fin and sail, etc.

But, there are some 'Freeride' boards I have ridden that are actually faster on flat water off the wind than full on slalom boards. Example: The two 110L boards, of the same brand, we were testing had very different characteristics in different circumstances. The slalom board maintained speed better in gybes and accelerated better out of gybes. It was also faster upwind. They were about even directly across the wind, but the Freeride was noticeably faster off the wind. This was all on pretty flat water. So the slalom board was faster around a figure 8 slalom course. But the Freeride board was faster on a downwind speed run on flat water.

The reason was the board shape. The Slalom board was wider tailed and had a flatter rocker for longer. Both things help it accelerate fast and plane early. The Freeride had a slightly shorter rocker flat at the rear and a narrower pinny tail, which enabled it to have less wetted area and drag when fully powered at speed off the wind.

Both riders the same weight, we had the same Slalom sails and fins, and we swapped boards a number of times.

These were 2010-11 models.

What are called 'Slalom' boards and 'Freeride' boards can vary quite a lot too. I have ridden some 'Freeride' boards that were very slow and draggy for speed, but they were unreal in maxed out windy, massive chop as they don't go as fast and stay on the water in control. It's always a tradeoff.

It is interesting to see that the most of the latest Slalom designs with their cutaways are trying to find a balance of the best of both worlds. The eternal quest!

There is no magic 'stance' secret that highly experienced sailors have that makes them faster. Their advantage is knowing exactly how to select and tune their board, fin and sail combination to get the optimum out of them in any given conditions. I think that would have been a big factor in Mr Cribb's great result.

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Stuthepirate said..
1. 30 - 40 knots
2. 35 - 45 knots

Well the speed difference is about right, but the peak speeds are very optimistic.

I've never heard of anyone, even Antione Albeau doing 45 knots with a slalom fin (which usually come no smaller than 28cm these days. They're just not designed for it. Most small slalom fins will crack 40 knots if sailed by freaks but the average sailor would do well to hit 35-36knots with a small slalom fin.

Now stick a quality symmetrical speed fin in a small slalom board, like a KA23 or Tribal 21 for instance (I have a KA23 for sale at a bargain price of $600 ;) ) and 40-42 knots is within reach of good sailors.

Don't forget , more down haul, straps out, mast base in the right place, small fin, sheet in, bear off and hang on.

Thanks all.
I have 2 freeride boards and a quiver of RAF sails. I thought long and hard whether to go a slalom / cam combination but when it all boils down to it the majority of my sailing is in choppy conditions so stuck with the freeride / RAF combo.

Sailed flat water a couple of weeks ago and cracked a 2 sec PB and felt comfortable - should have put more sail up.
The very next day sailed in some very choppy conditions (wind was about the same strength) on the same kit and was out of control - 2 knots slower though.
2 very different sailing experiences but thoroughly enjoyed both.

So I know roughly how much slower I am going to be in chop compared with flat.

I am just interested to know how much I would gain in the same conditions on a slalom / cam combination the same size.

cheers

There is just no simple answer to that question. It would depend on many things, highest among them being the actual model of boards and sails. Then there is fins and optimising the size of the equipment to the conditions.

It's a bit of a "how long is a piece of string" question.

All you will get are unqualified opinions which are not based on your conditions are equipment.

I agree Andrew, there is no "answer" but I'll give a personal example, as a rough guide.

While on the last stage of recovering from an ankle injury, I decided to take it easy on myself and use my wave gear at one of our flat water spots.
I managed 33kts that I was very pleased with, on my speed gear I'd probably have done 35/36kts, and I expect my wave gear would be slower than modern freeride equipment.

That's a good example Mike. I have done 40 knots on my old Acid 74 wave board, but that was in 35 knots of wind on flat water. Normally, that is quite a slow board, but when soooo fully lit it was riding on the last few inches of it's quite narrow pinny tail. In that mode it was not far off the shape of a lot of speed boards.

Hey spanish wog, why not pick up some second hand full on slalom gear of your favourite size. No reason you cant have both the great thing about slalom racer guys is they upgrade their gear every year so they sell lots of hardly used gear cheap. Personally i really like fully cambered sails because they have a big wind range and where i sail is often fairly variable. Ive got free race, free ride and slalom boards and love them all. Nearly all of them fairly new second hand. My excuse is ive got five sailers in my family so ee need extra boards

Thanks guys.
Piv - that would be the plan - just need a bigger shed!!

10 years or so back the pilot who sailed slalom on the river bought a Naish free ride board to go with his slalom sails etc.

It lasted only two sessions before he traded it back in on a Starboard Sonic

I raced him back from the 4kms or so from Point Walter - and I can confirm he was a good bit slower

Over the 4kms, i guess he was around 200 metres slower,which is only around 50m for each km or 5 percent slower.

But in windsurfing five percent is huge.

Tabou 3S 106 240X64.5X106 liters, Tribal Powermax 30, KA Race 6.3, best speed I could achieve on Port Phillip Bay just under a 29 knot 2 second.
KAGPS 64(prototype built by Carbon art) 240X64.5X103 liters, Tribal Powermax 30, KA Race 6.3, best speed at the same venue 36.1 knot 2 second.
Conclusion, Slalom Boards do go faster than Freeride boards.

I usually sail at Queens beach which is the rough end of Moreton Bay. A few weeks ago I was pretty surprised to get very close to a 30 knt 2 sec peak on my FSW 101 in the rough stuff and it felt effortless. Its a bit of a water shed moment for me and has reset my perspective on windsurfing gear. I have been making very small tuning adjustments and also being more selective about my sailing line when bearing off. So before looking at changing gear I'm looking at getting the best out of my existing kit first and loving both my slalom and FSW.

True Glenn,

Its proving how much more I need to focus on tuning my gear when out sailing with you

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mr love said..
Tabou 3S 106 240X64.5X106 liters, Tribal Powermax 30, KA Race 6.3, best speed I could achieve on Port Phillip Bay just under a 29 knot 2 second.
KAGPS 64(prototype built by Carbon art) 240X64.5X103 liters, Tribal Powermax 30, KA Race 6.3, best speed at the same venue 36.1 knot 2 second.
Conclusion, Slalom Boards do go faster than *Freeride* Freestyle wave boards.

mr love, a comparison with a Tabou Rocket (their Freeride board) might show less of a gap. I go about 10%-15% faster on my Freeride than my FSW. Love your boards BTW

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paddymac said..

mr love said..
Tabou 3S 106 240X64.5X106 liters, Tribal Powermax 30, KA Race 6.3, best speed I could achieve on Port Phillip Bay just under a 29 knot 2 second.
KAGPS 64(prototype built by Carbon art) 240X64.5X103 liters, Tribal Powermax 30, KA Race 6.3, best speed at the same venue 36.1 knot 2 second.
Conclusion, Slalom Boards do go faster than *Freeride* Freestyle wave boards.

mr love, a comparison with a Tabou Rocket (their Freeride board) might show less of a gap. I go about 10%-15% faster on my Freeride than my FSW. Love your boards BTW

Yep, maybe a bit unfair.

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paddymac said..

mr love said..
Tabou 3S 106 240X64.5X106 liters, Tribal Powermax 30, KA Race 6.3, best speed I could achieve on Port Phillip Bay just under a 29 knot 2 second.
KAGPS 64(prototype built by Carbon art) 240X64.5X103 liters, Tribal Powermax 30, KA Race 6.3, best speed at the same venue 36.1 knot 2 second.
Conclusion, Slalom Boards do go faster than *Freeride* Freestyle wave boards.

mr love, a comparison with a Tabou Rocket (their Freeride board) might show less of a gap. I go about 10%-15% faster on my Freeride than my FSW. Love your boards BTW

Yep, my 2 second peak on a 115 rocket versus the Patrik 115 are pretty much identical (low 30s). I regret selling the rocket... it gybed better and was nicer in chop. Fantastic boards.

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sailquik said..
That's a good example Mike. I have done 40 knots on my old Acid 74 wave board, but that was in 35 knots of wind on flat water. Normally, that is quite a slow board, but when soooo fully lit it was riding on the last few inches of it's quite narrow pinny tail. In that mode it was not far off the shape of a lot of speed boards.

MM so I should keep my 68 ltre acid?

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N1GEL said..

paddymac said..

mr love said..
Tabou 3S 106 240X64.5X106 liters, Tribal Powermax 30, KA Race 6.3, best speed I could achieve on Port Phillip Bay just under a 29 knot 2 second.
KAGPS 64(prototype built by Carbon art) 240X64.5X103 liters, Tribal Powermax 30, KA Race 6.3, best speed at the same venue 36.1 knot 2 second.
Conclusion, Slalom Boards do go faster than *Freeride* Freestyle wave boards.

mr love, a comparison with a Tabou Rocket (their Freeride board) might show less of a gap. I go about 10%-15% faster on my Freeride than my FSW. Love your boards BTW

Yep, my 2 second peak on a 115 rocket versus the Patrik 115 are pretty much identical (low 30s). I regret selling the rocket... it gybed better and was nicer in chop. Fantastic boards.

Really? I thought the Patrick would be better..

How much faster is slalom kit over freeride kit for average sailors over an hour if you throw some gybes into the mix?

It is well an good to say slalom is so many metres ahead of freeride over a long blast, but if the slalom board is hard to gybe the freeride sailor is going to cover a lot more distance in an equivalent session because he isn't doing any swimming at each turn.

I think only a genuinly expert slalom sailor will reap the speed benefits of a slalom board over the course of a days sailing. If you can't reliably gybe a slalom board (probs with a cammed sail too) your freeride and FSW buddy is going to flog you on the 1 hour.

Now there's an idea, maybe I should try a wave board next time I try an hour in the estuary chop.

Too many factors, like rider skill, state of the water, how powered.
But in general, slalom boards need more steady power to keep going thru lulls, while FAST freerace boards can get by with less power, having longer flats than dedicated slalom boards. This is in conjunction with the shorter rail lines of modern slalom boards.
However, different makers used different criteria. RRD and new JP's are supposed to use exactly the same shape, only difference is construction and weight.
Tabou '16 seems to use longer flats on the Speedster, and more slight rocker on the Manta's.
Rough water speed sailing favors fast freeride, while flatter waters and more skill favors slalom boards.