Am in process of (finally) adding an adjustable outhaul for my race sails. (Duotone Warp- 5.4 to 7.7) question is, "What is the travel at the clew eye between MAX and MIN outhaul if using for speed sailing?" 2, 4, 6cm?

On my 4.7m to 6.2m sails it no more than 3-4cm at the clew is the range I use when speed sailing, probably less (2cm?) most of the time. Between fully bagged and flattened at the clew it could be up to 5cm but that would be exterme I think.

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sailquik said..
On my 4.7m to 6.2m sails it no more than 3-4cm at the clew is the range I use when speed sailing, probably less (2cm?) most of the time. Between fully bagged and flattened at the clew it could be up to 5cm but that would be exterme I think.

Thanks Andrew. Was guessing 2-3cm. Sometimes I have let out a lot more... maybe too much.

Naturally, course racing would require more range adjustment....bigger sails, upwind flattening and downwind bagging.

Sorry, I have course racing on my mind and this section is for speed sailing. Sorry.

Usually you tend to let it go on one tack, jibe and pull it on the other tack. If you don't want to stop at every run you need much more than that range

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powersloshin said..
Usually you tend to let it go on one tack, jibe and pull it on the other tack. If you don't want to stop at every run you need much more than that range

Yes. If you have it set up on both sides like for course racing, the line thends to get asymmetric after a few adjustments. If you go for the super simple setup of adjustment on one side only as I do, this is not an issue. Then the issue becomes remembering to adjust before changing tacks as it is only available on one side. Nevertheless, that works well for me at Lake George. Let it out just before the bearaway and pull it on just before the gybe at the end of a speed run. It's a bit more complicated if I do speed runs on the other tack.

Thanks for all responses, but back to original question..."How much clew eyelet movement between pulled flat and bagged out on Duotone Warps, 5.4 - 7.7?"
...and just for the record, I am using one-sided adjustment. Cheers.

DEPENDS!
Around 4 cm, but personal preference and angle of attack make it like asking....how long harness lines?

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mikey100 said..
Thanks for all responses, but back to original question..."How much clew eyelet movement between pulled flat and bagged out on Duotone Warps, 5.4 - 7.7?"
...and just for the record, I am using one-sided adjustment. Cheers.

The 7.7m will require the most, probably about 8cm at a guess.
Why not just rig it & see.

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AUS 808 said..

mikey100 said..
Thanks for all responses, but back to original question..."How much clew eyelet movement between pulled flat and bagged out on Duotone Warps, 5.4 - 7.7?"
...and just for the record, I am using one-sided adjustment. Cheers.

The 7.7m will require the most, probably about 8cm at a guess.
Why not just rig it & see.

WOW...up to 8cm. Ok, will try. I thought 4cm was going extreme.

I run 8 cm on all sails, big and small.

8 cm might mean, when fully loosed for power or downwind, your clew control is floppy like a loose steering wheel and pumping is slack imprecise at best.
Didn't work for me in Formula. I used around 4cm on 7-9.5 meter sails.
But I was a terrible Formula sailor.
If 8 works for you, keep with it.
Just like I still use 24" harness lines. Not for everyone.

Ok. Will set up with 8cm clew eyelet movement... that means 32cm movement on the end of the outhaul rope (Using a 4:1 pully setup). Man, that's going to be a LOT of negative outhaul.
Note: I am still thinking Daffy's 3-4cm max range is closest to the mark, but... nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Mikey, you want let out enough outhaul so your sail touches / bag out over your boom to at least the rear harness line. For me this is about 20cm of outhaul line which translates to 2.5cm of movement at the eyelet.

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John340 said..
Mikey, you want let out enough outhaul so your sail touches / bag out over your boom to at least the rear harness line. For me this is about 20cm of outhaul line which translates to 2.5cm of movement at the eyelet.

Have just measured a couple of booms with 8:1 outhaul systems.... and all are in the 2 to 3cm difference at the clew eyelet. There is absolutely no way I can get 8cm as some of the above posters are recommending.
Interestingly,, Duotone are recommending 2cm difference on their Warp Race sails, for slalom usage.

Mikey,
Interesting that there are so many different answers. For my 2018 Warps I set the adjustable outhaul so that when it is fully cranked on with the sail clew touching the boom it gives me +2 cm of outhaul, this is the setting for heading upwind over powered. I ease it by 2cm for general cruising around and then fully bag it out by another 2 cm for speed runs. So 4cm total movement (This is for my 6.2, its probabaly less on the 5.4 and more on the 7.0). My older Maui sails required more perhaps 6cm.

If you use plenty of travel adjustment you can then set the full bag setting with a knot in the line. Works great, pull it tight for the upwinder, then when you're on the downwind just let the line go and the knot jamming in the cleat limits the bag setting. Works great when you're 3 parts out of control and can't do any fine trimming anyway.

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tbwonder said..
Mikey,
Interesting that there are so many different answers. For my 2018 Warps I set the adjustable outhaul so that when it is fully cranked on with the sail clew touching the boom it gives me +2 cm of outhaul, this is the setting for heading upwind over powered. I ease it by 2cm for general cruising around and then fully bag it out by another 2 cm for speed runs. So 4cm total movement (This is for my 6.2, its probabaly less on the 5.4 and more on the 7.0). My older Maui sails required more perhaps 6cm.

Cool, about 4cm in total then(2cm + to 2cm-). This falls in with approximately what many others are saying. My original question posed was because I was wondering how much negative outhaul was too much. thanks all.

On a speed run in moderate conditions (Like Lake George most of the time) you can almost not have the outhaul too loose. A few years ago I experimented on a pretty consistent day at Sandy Point in about 26-30 knots using my 5m Koncept on the speed board. Every run I let it looser I went faster. Even when it was bagged out so the batten was reversing over the boom and the sail was starting to wrap over the boom right up the the front harness lines. Of course, it was horrible if I tired to sail back upwind like that. . It was also pretty hard to control on the reach run in to the run.
Part of this is probably because I choose to sail on a slightly smaller sail than I could get away with a lot of the time. I find this is faster for me in most conditions as it lets the board fly better.
In the end, I settled for letting the sail touch the boom about 2/3rds along towards the front. But in winds like a couple of weeks ago well into the high 30's and gusting well over 40, I was on the edge of loosing control in the big squalls, with the batten just touching where it crosses the boom on my 4.7m KA Speed. I was definitely not thinking I would bag the sail any more! . But in these conditions it is very difficult to sail upwind, and mostly not worth trying. It's faster, safer and less energy sapping to walk back at least 1/2 to 2/3rds of the way. If the angle is good, I walk all the way back. In winds where you have to sail back upwind, it is a big advantage to be able to flatten the sail, because is you are powered up to the max at 135 off the wind on the speed run, you will be waaayy overdone for sailing upwind and will need to dump as much power as possible.

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sailquik said..
On a speed run in moderate conditions (Like Lake George most of the time) you can almost not have the outhaul too loose. A few years ago I experimented on a pretty consistent day at Sandy Point in about 26-30 knots using my 5m Koncept on the speed board. Every run I let it looser I went faster. Even when it was bagged out so the batten was reversing over the boom and the sail was starting to wrap over the boom right up the the front harness lines. Of course, it was horrible if I tired to sail back upwind like that. . It was also pretty hard to control on the reach run in to the run.
Part of this is probably because I choose to sail on a slightly smaller sail than I could get away with a lot of the time. I find this is faster for me in most conditions as it lets the board fly better.
In the end, I settled for letting the sail touch the boom about 2/3rds along towards the front. But in winds like a couple of weeks ago well into the high 30's and gusting well over 40, I was on the edge of loosing control in the big squalls, with the batten just touching where it crosses the boom on my 4.7m KA Speed. I was definitely not thinking I would bag the sail any more! . But in these conditions it is very difficult to sail upwind, and mostly not worth trying. It's faster, safer and less energy sapping to walk back at least 1/2 to 2/3rds of the way. If the angle is good, I walk all the way back. In winds where you have to sail back upwind, it is a big advantage to be able to flatten the sail, because is you are powered up to the max at 135 off the wind on the speed run, you will be waaayy overdone for sailing upwind and will need to dump as much power as possible.

Andrew, I think you will find the main reason your board flys better is that when let your outhaul out the leech of your sail opens allowing you to sail faster and deeper. The same sort of effect as a sailboat easing out the boom vang to go down wind.

Andrew, I think you will find the main reason your board flys better is that when let your outhaul out the leech of your sail also opens allowing you to sail faster and deeper. The same sort of effect as a sailboat easing out the boom vang to go down wind.

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AUS4 said..
Andrew, I think you will find the main reason your board flys better is that when let your outhaul out the leech of your sail also opens allowing you to sail faster and deeper. The same sort of effect as a sailboat easing out the boom vang to go down wind.

Quite possibly a bonus effect, but the effect, and benefits, of using a 'smaller' sail is very well established in my experience, bagged outhaul or not.

That said, I am not convinced, after many experiments trying extreme twisted sails, that the twist alone makes any difference to being able to deeper and faster on a speed run, especially where there is a low wind speed gradient. I know this superficially goes against 'conventional accepted' wisdom, so it will be hard to accept for many people. IMHO, we build, and rig, twist into sails for a lot of good reasons, but not always the ones that many people think.

I will leave it there though, as it would take more time and brain power than I can muster right now to do the topic justice.