Howdy all.

Some interesting conversation in the thread below regarding the benefits and integrity of all posts being submitted to the GPSTC via KA72. I thought that starting a new thread here where it would likely be seen by more GPSTC members, GPSTC Captains and the GPSTC Board Members would be smarter than us all chatting about it in the NSW forum.

Please add your thoughts and possible pros/cons in this thread after reading the contributions in the thread below.


www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/New-South-Wales/GPSTC-NSW-results-for-2015/

Personally I'm all for it although I know others will disagree. I think that all sessions should be posted via KA72 as this would resolve all the angst out there. Sailors could still run their sessions through preferred software (GPSResults, realspeed etc) and manually post but they would still be required to log it with KA72 (for ease of verification).

[EDIT - not one to get upset but instead of red thumbing how about offering an opinion]

I never intended for ka72 to replace other software out there that does a more detailed job of file analysis.

KA72 was always meant to be an easy way for files to be post-verified (and to make it easier for beginners to get into the sport.)

Although results are usually the same across different software, they aren't always the same, due to minor differences in the way different programs work. ka72 was intended to make it easier to check and verify files, and to ensure that they were all processed with the identical software settings.

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Dylan72 said..
I never intended for ka72 to replace other software out there that does a more detailed job of file analysis.

KA72 was always meant to be an easy way for files to be post-verified (and to make it easier for beginners to get into the sport.)

Although results are usually the same across different software, they aren't always the same, due to minor differences in the way different programs work. ka72 was intended to make it easier to check and verify files, and to ensure that they were all processed with the identical software settings.

Dylan,
As you are the developer and owner of the site I suppose firstly it would be prudent to check if you have an aversion to making KA72 the "one stop shop" for posting to GPSTC.

How about postings put through from www.gps-speedsurfing.com ?

At present they have a function to upload your file, after which it is analyzed and posted. It won't post if there's errors in the file, you then have to process it manually via GPSAR, GPSresults etc. Over 95% of the time you only have to upload the file.

If posting to GPSTC would require to upload via KA72, this would require considerable extra effort for GPSSS users.

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ned321 said..
How about postings put through from www.gps-speedsurfing.com ?

At present they have a function to upload your file, after which it is analyzed and posted. It won't post if there's errors in the file, you then have to process it manually via GPSAR, GPSresults etc. Over 95% of the time you only have to upload the file.

If posting to GPSTC would require to upload via KA72, this would require considerable extra effort for GPSSS users.

I'd have no concerns if international posters did it via GPSSS - there used to be links between the two sites (GPSTC & GPSSS) whereby you could post to the other site respectively but the links no longer work. To be honest though I don't believe it would require a considerable extra effort for you guys as I separately post to GPSSS occassionally and that adds a whole extra minute to the process.

Nothing against Dylan's work with KA72 but I've used it once for remote quick calculation but that's it

I've been doing my calc's with software since 2005 and I don't trust what I can't see with the data you can check.

I'm against it

I think it would be good if everyone uploads there files onto ka72 for verification if required but not necessarily post from there if they want to use other software. I generally upload through ka72 for ease of posting and then analyze my tracks through other software.

I'm with Elmo here, I've nothing against anybody using KA72, it's a great resource, but there's no way it should be mandatory!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If that happens I'm out of here.

There's a few cases where doddgy data gets by the filters in all the analysing software, I have to retain the right to post the data I think is the most accurate.

I'm with Decrepit and Elmo.

Its a NSW problem with just a very few stroppy, distrusting individuals. Sort it out among yourselves.

I like the ease of posting through ka72 as it is all I've got but several of my fastest alphas in different sessions have not shown up then when I sent my files on the gurus they were fine and the gurus in the GPSTC have used other programs to verify this as I'm no expert it's bad luck for me just the other day realspeed gave me a 27.5 alpha and ka72 gave me 27.0 so I just went with ka72 as we had a good team score as its all about fun and happy days! It's just a bit frustrating with the inconsistency!

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stroppo said..
I like the ease of posting through ka72 as it is all I've got but several of my fastest alphas in different sessions have not shown up then when I sent my files on the gurus they were fine and the gurus in the GPSTC have used other programs to verify this as I'm no expert it's bad luck for me just the other day realspeed gave me a 27.5 alpha and ka72 gave me 27.0 so I just went with ka72 as we had a good team score as its all about fun and happy days! It's just a bit frustrating with the inconsistency!

If anyone's had inconsistent results, I am always happy to take a look at the files and see if something needs tweaking.

Several times in the past the software has been adjusted as a result of this.

Alphas are one of the most difficult to calculate, but since they are relatively short (unlike 1hr, for example) they are usually easier to work out what is going wrong with.

Elmo, Decrepit and Sailquik,
I think what Vando et al have said ameliorates any of your concerns and as a compromise what if it was made mandatory to log any session that was within your top 5 results (not retrospectively) and any session that contributed to the teams score for any given month. I'm finding it hard to understand anyone's reluctance to implement this as it doesn't change the way any individual wants to post their numbers i.e. either through KA72 or their preferred software program.

Andrew, I don't believe this to be only "a NSW" issue alone.

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elmo said...
Nothing against Dylan's work with KA72 but I've used it once for remote quick calculation but that's it

I've been doing my calc's with software since 2005 and I don't trust what I can't see with the data you can check.

I'm against it

Same same. Ka72 for quick post. But our Team always puts Pb's through Realspead so they can be checked properly

I am with Brian and Mike.
Also its been brought up the captains of the teams or a team guru should check their members files if suss or unusual but my point is how do we do this as some GPS units put out files that are not readable on for instance realspeed which I have.
I am not a expert on reading files I often ask Mike for help if any need checking.
I think as the TC rules say if your results count you should be using the GT or GW
They say the TC is fun but people get upset when they are slower most are guilty of this so the TC needs to sort out any doubt not sure if KA can do this as people can manipulate files not sure if they do but I would say they would feel bad about themselves.
At the end of the day I think we have to just rely on people to be honest.

For the record, I don't agree with mandatory posting of files to a public area.

Back at the start we had some people go to secret spots to get good speeds, and not want those spots exposed for various reasons. A requirement to publicly post all files would stop people like this from posting altogether.

I do, however, agree with the rule that all files must be made available on request for verification. This doesn't mean that the file will be posted publicly for all to see, it just means that an administrator (or team captain) can then verify the numbers.

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nebbian said..

Back at the start we had some people go to secret spots to get good speeds, and not want those spots exposed for various reasons

Which was one of the reasons I set up ka72 to allow you to make tracks Private some time ago.

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nebbian said..
For the record, I don't agree with mandatory posting of files to a public area.

Back at the start we had some people go to secret spots to get good speeds, and not want those spots exposed for various reasons. A requirement to publicly post all files would stop people like this from posting altogether.

I do, however, agree with the rule that all files must be made available on request for verification. This doesn't mean that the file will be posted publicly for all to see, it just means that an administrator (or team captain) can then verify the numbers.

An administrator verifying numbers!





No I think open peer review is fundamental to the sport of GPS speed sailing. We can call it peer review as it's one off the most scientific sports about. 99.9 % of the time no one is going to bother, just take what KA72 or Gpsresults spits out. But it's essential that the extraordinary results are nitpicked by anybody and everybody. GPS devices can hiccup, and no amount of computerised if, then, elsing can match plural human brains for verifying the record runs.

Anyway how many secret spots are there? And isn't trekking half way across the country to meet up with mates at an oozy lagoon where someone did 49.9 knots last year one of the attractions of the sport?

KISS ..... Use whatever program is approved or you can access and let's keep it real folks. It's for fun remember.

I might be naive but I cant imagine anybody is actually cheating in GPS racing! I dunno but I imagine its not that easy to do either, I find the GPSs and uploading etc hard enough let alone trying to manipulating data in your favour.

I am guessing there is only a few with the brains to be able to do it and out of that select gene pool they are probably smart enough to know how to sail faster without resorting to cheating.

Guys like Megamind, (pictured) are pretty rare guys and dont generally wsurf.

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JustinL said..
I might be naive but I cant imagine anybody is actually cheating in GPS racing! I dunno but I imagine its not that easy to do either,

Used to be easy with the old Garmin Gecko. That Garmin didn't just log its satellite fixes. It did a fair bit of pre-processing. This was so the tracks looked reasonably smooth on download, not spiking off every time the bushwalker passed under a tree.

Glider pilots picked up on GPS for competition before windsurfers and they found out how to put this to advantage. In out and back races to a way-point they'd pop the GPS under alfoil a couple of hundred metres before the mark, do the U turn short of the mark and then re-expose the GPS to satellites. The GPs would extrapolate the original course, take in the beacon, rediscover the satellite fix quite a way from where it had guessed it was. Instead of admitting mistake the new track points are cleverly adjusted before being logged so as to merge into the new course.

I suspect I inadvertently took advantage of this down at Gerroa once where I set myself an open ocean 5 by 10 I've never got close to repeating. Keen to know how I was going I'd drop in the water at the start of each run to check the display. The gps then got wet and submerged during the water start. Before it collected its thoughts I was off on my next downwinder. The gps would say "Ah there he is" but instead of jumping to my location it would play catch up. Of course to catch up it had to fudge going faster. Hence my unrepeatable 5 by 10. (Still sitting on GPSSS )

I did a whole lot of experiments walking around an oval with a Garmin and a tin can. I walk at about 4 knots, but once I got the hang of it I could easily get 6-7 knot peaks. The later GPS are probably better, and satellites are logged, but does logging satellites get around this loop hole? It would have had full reception while playing catch up. Do we know what sort of pre processing goes on with later GPS?

Or you can just hitch a ride on a jet ski.

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Crasher said..

elmo said...
Nothing against Dylan's work with KA72 but I've used it once for remote quick calculation but that's it

I've been doing my calc's with software since 2005 and I don't trust what I can't see with the data you can check.

I'm against it

Same same. Ka72 for quick post. But our Team always puts Pb's through Realspead so they can be checked properly

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Crasher said..

elmo said...
Nothing against Dylan's work with KA72 but I've used it once for remote quick calculation but that's it

I've been doing my calc's with software since 2005 and I don't trust what I can't see with the data you can check.

I'm against it

Same same. Ka72 for quick post. But our Team always puts Pb's through Realspead so they can be checked properly

As a team captain I always check any of our members PBs through Realspeed and this has been the case since GPSTC conception.
KA72 is very good & convenient when traveling but I still find inconsistencies which may actually be in Realspeed but that's what we started with & will stick with.
We also like to be able to see our crashes tracks & analyse them, that's half the fun.

I think all PBs should be checked through visual software regardless how you post the times.

Hi All
I'm only new to GPS sailing and have only been sailing consistently for about a year.
I can see clearly by the comments and conversations that I have had with people that this something some people take very seriously and put a lot of time effort and money into achieving the best results possible, So I'm not saying we don't have a stake in the result. I love the concept and it is a lot of fun to record your session to see how you are progressing and develop your sailing. As a beginner I don't have a lot of money to put into an expensive GPS or even the most up to date racing/speed gear to be competitive yet(will come in time I'm sure).
I think in perspective though this was started with the idea of introducing a new challenge to the sport that we all love/or are obsessed with.

Personally I'm using a Cannmore and KA72 to upload my results because it was a reasonable price and easy to use and track the sailing that I've been doing.
I'm not at a speed that I'm contributing to the results of my team as yet and that will come in time. (I hope). I think there are rules that are in place to create a level playing field for all concerned and they are clearly stated on the site. If we are contributing to team scores we need to have files available for verification and be using a GPS that is of the standard required. When I improve I will look at investing in the right gear for the right job and level that I'm sailing at.

I don't think this is a difficult task as you just save the file and upload it to either Ka72 or other software if you are uncomfortable before posting.Then if required you submit the file for verification if not available the results don't stand. KISS as KATO said.
If this means that they aren't able to be verified you go out and try again and have the most fun doing it because you are on the water doing the sport that you love.
Lets not take away from the fact this is not for Sheep stations and we do it for FUN and the RUSH, Maybe some bragging rights also. So let's get out and enjoy the thrill I will be every chance I get. Bring on more wind!!!

Keeping it real for me is having one GT-31 on my arm, going for a sail, going home and putting the SD card
through KA.72 and that's it.....if its low on battery or I pressed the wrong button...stiff, there is always tomorrow.

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JustinL said..
I might be naive but I cant imagine anybody is actually cheating in GPS racing!

No I don't believe anyone is really cheating but they will gladly accept numbers from KA72 even if they look a bit suspect.
They can justify it in their own mind because KA72 says it's good.
Over the years people have actually program shopped to get the best results for a session
Some will accept KA72 over another if the results are better and vice versa.

Just be consistent with what you use, we are not playing for sheep stations, remember

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vando said..
I think it would be good if everyone uploads there files onto ka72 for verification if required but not necessarily post from there if they want to use other software. I generally upload through ka72 for ease of posting and then analyze my tracks through other software.

Ditto

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nebbian said..
For the record, I don't agree with mandatory posting of files to a public area.

Back at the start we had some people go to secret spots to get good speeds, and not want those spots exposed for various reasons. A requirement to publicly post all files would stop people like this from posting altogether.

I do, however, agree with the rule that all files must be made available on request for verification. This doesn't mean that the file will be posted publicly for all to see, it just means that an administrator (or team captain) can then verify the numbers.

I can't understand why a GPSTC sailor or team would want to keep a sailing spot secret!

I can think of a few reasons why making it widely known might not be a good idea. If the venue is likely to invite controversy from other interested parties like nut case bird watchers for instance, having the evidence online would be not a good idea.

Some places might be OK when used by a very small number of sailors, but the impact might not be predictable if more and more tuned up where access may be controversial or access through private or public land and may be lost to all through complaints.

I think there may also be a view some people take that if they go to a lot of trouble and expense to find a good spot, they should be allowed to reap the rewards with their mates for a while before it becomes too widely known. I don't really have too much of an issue with that as long as they are not silly about about trying to hide it indefinitely.

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Boombuster said..
my point is how do we do this as some GPS units put out files that are not readable on for instance realspeed which I have.

Which of the approve units cannot be viewed on Realspeed?
To my knowledge they all work fine.

With Elmo Decrepit and Nebs, no from me.
I did use the ka72 once or twice, but I have realspeed, and will continue to use same. Ka72 was a great idea, and I presume that was started out as a bit of a challenge for Dillon, to see how he could enhance what was already out there. From watching from afar, looks like he has the goods as well.

Couple of points re this subject that are showing up in the topics, and in my humble opinion, bloody bad sportsmanship.
What's the idea of red thumbs with anybody disagreeing with the trend "only" use ka72? That's just rubbish guys.

Lost in all this is the main reason a few good lads kicked this GPSTC off, way back.

This was for FUN, you know, that stuff we do to keep on the water, have a few laughs and not to be taken too serious, and a bit of sports mateship .
Should people want to get into the real serious stuff, how about going with the web sites that cater for that side of the sport.

For the admin guys, who do a great service with running the system.
Humans, being who we are, loveeeeee adding rules rules, and the catch is, not to implement too many that get thrown up at you.

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sailquik said..
I can think of a few reasons why making it widely known might not be a good idea. If the venue is likely to invite controversy from other interested parties like nut case bird watchers for instance, having the evidence online would be not a good idea.

Some places might be OK when used by a very small number of sailors, but the impact might not be predictable if more and more tuned up where access may be controversial or access through private or public land and may be lost to all through complaints.

I think there may also be a view some people take that if they go to a lot of trouble and expense to find a good spot, they should be allowed to reap the rewards with their mates for a while before it becomes too widely known. I don't really have too much of an issue with that as long as they are not silly about about trying to hide it indefinitely.

Your not doing anything illegal are ya daffy .