Having recently upgraded to KA Koncepts (5.8, 6.6 and 7.5) I am now looking to improve the rigs with better masts (currently using Neil Pryde SDM freeride C30's).

My ideal would be new KA 75% SDM's but I'm not sure I can justify the expense.

I've seen a few demo/2nd hand masts advertised on Seabreeze but don't know how well suited they are for the Koncepts (although anything is likely to be an improvement over the C30's).

Therefore, if you've used Koncepts with non-KA masts I'd like to hear how it worked out.

Need more info on what year the sails are? ,but the best mast will be a constant curve. The extra expense is worth it

Thanks for the prompt Kato, I should have given more details. From memory the sails are as follows:
5.8 - 2010
6.6 - 2011
7.5 - 2009

NP X3's work well. SDM
I have one for my 5.8 and I know a few others who use them with Koncepts also. Very happy.

My 4.9 is on an old rushwind SDM and works very nicely on that.

Koncepts aren't too fussy but I did try my 6.4 on a gaastra mast I had and it didn't work at all, so I got a genuine KA mast. Such a difference! The Koncept works beautifully on it. If I was getting a new mast I'd look for a KA, failing that an X3.

My Koncepts are all 2010

Have to agree with Kato, the right mast is the best way to go.
however.. I use and like "Billows 100%" RDM on my 5.0, 5.8, 6.6.
08 KA Koncept sails

may be this is why I'm still just short of the Big 40
Naaa.. its just my skill level

go with the real KA masts if you can afford it, worth the extra.
if not.. look at Billows.. (and others) might work on your sails as well !

Thanks for the info Anita. My C30's are an earlier version of the X3 and I'm pretty happy with how the Koncepts rig on them (and how they feel). But, given your praise for the KA mast it suggests a move from the C30 will give the improvement I'm seeking.

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TerryF said...

Thanks for the prompt Kato, I should have given more details. From memory the sails are as follows:
5.8 - 2010
6.6 - 2011
7.5 - 2009

The 5.8 (09) i,ve used a North drop shape which works very well and continued to work with the 5.7 (10) untill i broke it. I now use it with a skinny (Killwell) which is even better. Favorite sail this one and won,t go untill its dead.

Never had a 2011,6.6 but used a NP X6 for a long time on an 08 mod and for a while on a 2012 mod but the Ka SDM worked the best as the NP was just too soft in the head for the latter sails. Might work for you if your a bit lighter.

The 7.5 (09) which i still have, worked well on an X6 for when the wind was increasing and i didn,t want to change sails. (increased its top end, softer head) but now i,m using a Ka SDM for that one too.

Had some success with using North gold masts too,but the best mast will always be the one the sail maker has designed the sail to suit. I wouldn,t go with any less carbon than 60%, and consider a skinny for the 5.8 as it makes it a much better sail. Constant curve mast is what you want. Put the best mast you can afford on the sail that you will use the most, and then save for the rest. A crap mast on a great sail is still just crappy

A nicely detailed response Kato. Agree about getting the best mast for the sail used most often. Luckily for me that would be the 6.6, meaning it will also be used for the 7.5. Leaving the 430 for the 5.8 as the second priority.

Hi Terry I have a few Koncepts as well.

2011 6.6
I currently use a a KA 55 bottom and a 100 top and is fantastic, actually are on my third bottom as have broke 2 ( not a good idea to use them in the surf ) have used a NP freeride 50% 460 on it at first but the cam rotation was shocking mast was just too thick.

2007 and 2011 5.8
have ran a NP X3 on the 2007 and was kind of ok if just cruising and will get you by for a while but just too loose in the leech and can be over downhauled and cause too much flapping and will damage to leech panels as the early models where weaker there. currently run a 70% KA mast and is sweet no trouble at all have run up to 40's ok. haven't used the 2011 yet but rigged great.

2007 5.0
I have never had the proper mast for this sail, currently use a cut down X3 430 bottom with a 400 fiberspar tidal wave top. this is my favoutie sail and the one I use the most and can't see a reason to change as have constantly ran good numbers in all divisions on gpstc. the rotation could be a bit better but evrything else is sweet. have a set of rdm cams and have rigged it with a ezzy 400 rdm and looked fantastic and rotated so easy but never sailed it just test rigged as I was thinking of taking it on my maui trip last winter. so spewing I didn't take it as it would have been sweet at kanaha and I could't find a cam sail to hire there at all.

So yes you can use another mast but make sure it's constant curve like Kato said as the flex tops dont cut it and I think gastra hard tops will be worse. I think naish masts are a close match but never see any around here.

Sailquick will know a bit more on the rdm's as he has done a fair bit of testing on them.

thanks Jamie.

Terry, I think you need an 8.3 as well.
I know a guy that has one for sale, cheap

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TerryF said...

Thanks for the prompt Kato, I should have given more details. From memory the sails are as follows:
5.8 - 2010
6.6 - 2011
7.5 - 2009

Hey Paul, an 8.3 sounds great. But given I'm struggling to work out which 430 and 460 to get its only going to complicate things if I need to get a 490 as well (especially when some reckon I can't walk and chew gum at the same time)

I'll be the odd one out and say I have used Ezzy RDMs for everything from a 6.6m up until a 8.5m Koncept. I was sick of breaking SDM 460s, so I thought I would try RDMs instead to see how they went.

I would use them for the 5.7m too, but it doesn't seem to get that windy...

The Ezzy's work fine in the 6.6m, and the 7.5m and 8.5m. The proviso is that the 7.5m and 8.5m have been retrimmed by a sail-maker as they were too loose in the leech when I ran them on a powerex and an ART speedstick. The same change made them rig well on the Ezzy 460 and 490 RDMs. (I really think they weren't cut that well from the factory, but I never had a genuine KA mast to compare with)

To make things even stranger I use RDM cams from Ezzy Infinities, but the correct KA RDM cam should work the same.

Rotation of the sails, and the shape of the sails, are both fine with the Ezzy RDMs.

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FormulaNova said...

I'll be the odd one out and say I have used Ezzy RDMs for everything from a 6.6m up until a 8.5m Koncept. I was sick of breaking SDM 460s, so I thought I would try RDMs instead to see how they went.

I would use them for the 5.7m too, but it doesn't seem to get that windy...

The Ezzy's work fine in the 6.6m, and the 7.5m and 8.5m. The proviso is that the 7.5m and 8.5m have been retrimmed by a sail-maker as they were too loose in the leech when I ran them on a powerex and an ART speedstick. The same change made them rig well on the Ezzy 460 and 490 RDMs. (I really think they weren't cut that well from the factory, but I never had a genuine KA mast to compare with)

To make things even stranger I use RDM cams from Ezzy Infinities, but the correct KA RDM cam should work the same.

Rotation of the sails, and the shape of the sails, are both fine with the Ezzy RDMs.

Oh dear! Not Ezzy RDM's!

No wonder the sails needed to be altered. These RDMs are too soft around the boom for Koncepts. Not a good match at all! I have only tried them personally on the smaller sizes but the AMac has the same view for all sizes.
Try the KA SDM's in the larger sizes and you will think you have just got a new
sail!
I have been using some RDM's built to my specs in the sizes up to 6.6m and they are great. Send me a PM if you are interested in them.

In general, the Earlier Koncepts work best on true Constant Curve SDM masts. (12%) From 2009 the smaller ones work great on CC KA RDM's.
The last couple of years work best with slightly more flex top masts around 13%.
You will get better results for speed sailing out of the 2012 smaller (6.6m and under) Koncepts with slightly stiffer RDM masts. From this years proto testing I expect the 2013 smaller sails to work perfectly on KA's new RDM's.

Just another punter here on NP X3s on Koncept 5.0 and 5.8. I know it's not ideal, but it's good enough for me, looks good rigged and is quick enough (for me, at least).

I've got a 5m Koncept which seems to set OK on an Excel SDM 400, albeit a little hard to pop the bottom cam on, no idea what the bend curve is.
........ but has anybody tried it on a Loft RDM 400 ? May be similar to your Billows 400 David ?

The Koncepts do certainly seem to be incredably mast tolerant !

edit - sorry Daffy, just read your post, I'll check what year the sail is.

I got one of Daffy's RDM's for my 5.9 Koyote this season. Its not a koncept, (pretty much the same just without the cams), after having used a 400 KA 55% SDM in this sail forever and thinking 'it works well/fine' having now gone to Daffy's mast - 430 RDM specific for KA Koncepts it feels unbelievable!!!! Like a brand new sail and sooooo responsive!!!

Moral - get the right mast for the sail you have and you wont know yourself... or your sail.

Terry
Next time your up for a sail, i'll let you rig them on my KAs. If i'm not going out (likely :)) you can call by and grab them if you want.
They were a vast improvement on my 2000 NP RacePro 100% carbons, only downside was i noticed the additional weight of the 75% over th e100%, but not worth worrying about.
Cheers

Hiya Wayne - hows things? I should have thought to give you a call and get your input. I'd forgotten which masts you were using so getting to try a KA would be great. Not sure when my next sail will be but I've just taken the gear out of the shed (after packing it away at the end of summer). Just need wind and free time to align.

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sailquik said...

Oh dear! Not Ezzy RDM's!

No wonder the sails needed to be altered. These RDMs are too soft around the boom for Koncepts. Not a good match at all! I have only tried them personally on the smaller sizes but the AMac has the same view for all sizes.
Try the KA SDM's in the larger sizes and you will think you have just got a new
sail!
I have been using some RDM's built to my specs in the sizes up to 6.6m and they are great. Send me a PM if you are interested in them.

In general, the Earlier Koncepts work best on true Constant Curve SDM masts. (12%) From 2009 the smaller ones work great on CC KA RDM's.
The last couple of years work best with slightly more flex top masts around 13%.
You will get better results for speed sailing out of the 2012 smaller (6.6m and under) Koncepts with slightly stiffer RDM masts. From this years proto testing I expect the 2013 smaller sails to work perfectly on KA's new RDM's.

Hi Andrew, I agree, they won't be the optimal masts for those sails, but for me, they are good enough.

I am over having the exact mast to suit a particular sail, as I don't have the budget to swap that often, and my sailing is not that good where I need 100% performance. I envy the fact that you can swap your kit so often, and you are close enough to the source that you can get the right kit. In my experience, ordering from KA was a bit hit and miss, so I gave up.

I had the larger Koncepts rigged on a 460 ART speedstick and a 490 powerex, but they never rigged well, being too loose in the head. I couldn't justify two new masts.

Terry.
The SDM Powerex wave masts, which ranged from 45% up to about 55% work very well in the 400 and 430 length is the Koncepts. They were not too heavy and pretty hard to break (for anyone exceptt Kato anyway!). They were true constant curve and normal curve, unlike the RDM's. Also good in the longer high carbon SDM racing masts but they are probably a lot rarer and less bulletproof. Those wave masts are probably everywhere in WA. The 430 would work well on the 2010 5.7 I recon. Actually, the 2010 5.7 was the first one that size I ran on an RDM and it was an instant success for me on a CC Triana 430 RDM!
For the other two sails you need a good Constant Curve 70% 460 SDM. 12% curve is the best number to look for. The lower % ones are a bit too heavy and dead in these sizes and the 100% SDM's are a bit too fragile for my liking. Some also tend to be a bit too stiff in the bottom.

PM sent.

A big thanks to all for the input - a lot of useful info that will help me better assess whether that 2nd hand /demo mast is a good option for my Koncepts (and if I can't find any suitable ones then I might have to stretch it to a new KA mast).