2nd season speedsailing and I still have much to learn. I recently got my hands on some race sails, which certainly seem less work than my speedfreak, but not really seeing a big bump in speeds yet (only 2 sessions in though)



This above interview with Jordy Vonk was pretty interesting and made me realize I need to experiment with different settings. Seems like the goal is to tweak settings so that you are "flying on the edge" and various settings affect the propensity for the board to fly or not.

Is my understanding of the impact of various changes below accurate?

Assumptions: flying on the edge is just the right amount of lift that you don't tail walk.
Question: He mentions control at the 9min mark and it seems to be the opposite of lift

Mast base forward = less lift
Boom lower = less lift
Harness lines longer = less lift
More outhaul = less lift
Move straps forwards = less lift

According to Jordy Downhaul is a bit tricky cause less downhaul equals less lift but also less mast foot pressure which will increase lift

Theres a lot of variables there, any suggestion on which to focus on first?

My last session on 6.2 and 62 cm wide board

Your on the right track. Check out the TWS Technique Series Episode 5 How to Fly.

Nice alpha

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John340 said..
Your on the right track. Check out the TWS Technique Series Episode 5 How to Fly.

Nice alpha

cheers

I don't think the alpha above is legit cause that session on gps-speed has my alpha racing at 11knots

I must admit that I gave up following those "rules" some times ago, and now I just go for the set up that makes the board feel as stable and "self-adjusting" as possible in a straight line. The interaction of those five adjustments, plus your body position, is complex, and it is not always clear, to me at least, if I need more or less lift to correct what I think is a problem. I just move things around until I find a nice spot, and I use a sort of bi-section method to get there. When the navigation feels effortless I am good. With a new board and sail it takes half dozen tries or more. I did notice that my new boards, the Futura and especially the AV Modena, "jump" on the rail very easily, point my toes a bit and off they go stable as rocks.

[PS Straps after a few runs are fixed in their position, and have been using 30 cm harness lines for years. I am also using small sized Point-7 ACX, or ACZ, 6.0-6.5-6.8, which are much less technical than AC-ONE (gasp!). I maybe touch the outhaul 1-2 cm in navigation]

I agree, the most important thing is to have your kit balanced and feel that you are not fighting it. To go fast you need a slalom board, move the straps all the way back and then play with boom height and mast track. Try to move the mast as far back as possible and to get more control move the boom lower. Harness lines should always be long to keep your body away from the board.
Push on the fin laterally when you have power, and sheet in hard, the board will start flying on the fin, then bear away and enjoy the feeling !
Flat water is ideal to feel the effect of your trim.

How big of a difference do you think it makes top end on a freeride board like the Blast OR and Xcite ride vs. a dedicated slalom board? Or, will fin matter more?

Re downhaul, Rig it based on the wind and trim the gear from there. Pros are lucky to have all the kit so they pretty much have a fixed downhaul for each size. If you need more range from your sail then you won't have that luxury.

Then trim the gear with boom height and mast foot position, higher boom mast back = more weight to the back, lower boom mast forward=more weight to the front. Make it tail walk then detune it a bit by moving either boom down or mast forward, rinse and repeat until you have the level of comfort you need to not back off.

I disagree on downhaul. More shifts the power lower, there's less overall lift, but it's decreasing from the top of the sail, so there's less leverage over the nose of the board. More downhaul can make the board fly better.

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powersloshin said..
I agree, the most important thing is to have your kit balanced and feel that you are not fighting it. To go fast you need a slalom board, move the straps all the way back and then play with boom height and mast track. Try to move the mast as far back as possible and to get more control move the boom lower. Harness lines should always be long to keep your body away from the board.
Push on the fin laterally when you have power, and sheet in hard, the board will start flying on the fin, then bear away and enjoy the feeling !
Flat water is ideal to feel the effect of your trim.

Agree with this. Your board is the biggest drag factor, you need as much of it out of the water as possible so everything back (assuming adequate wind). If using weed fins, your mast track can go close to the back of the track. You need to practice pushing it to the edge of control if you want to go faster. With practice your comfort zone will become much more lively and faster.

Appreciate all that info.

Follow up questions.

1) Kind of struggled to get into my seat harness with the boom high today, so I had to lower it. adjustable harness lines were at max length.

2) Seems like my fastest runs are on port, but I felt much more control on starboard. Is this likely a wind/water condition thing or something to do with dominant right foot

3) I do get the sense there is very little weight on my front foot and if I relax that leg I feel it would fly out of the front strap. Not sure if it technique or kit set up. This is particularly noticable on port

I'm a very asymmetric sailor, harness lines usually end up offset by around 10cm. Could be right hand bias, but I'm not sure.
front foot too light could be a geometry thing. Ideally you want the centre of effort of the sail in between the foot straps, if it is behind the centre, it will try to pull you backwards, lifting the front foot. Both boom height and mast track position will affect this. So in your case you maybe running the boom too high, with the mast base too close.

Swell/chop lines don't always run at 90deg to the wind/. The runs that are more parallel to the wind are usually faster. In some extreme cases running along the chop/swell is about the ideal angle, but only in one direction. the other direction you are crashing into it.

Aerodynamic lift is another factor, good lift from the fin will raise the windward rail, allowing wind to get under the nose and lift it. windward rail down will mean the wind is mainly on top of the board pushing nose down.
If you don't have enough lift from the fin, lifting the windward rail with your ankles (push down with toes, lift with heel), will help

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decrepit said..
Swell/chop lines don't always run at 90deg to the wind/. The runs that are more parallel to the wind are usually faster. In some extreme cases running along the chop/swell is about the ideal angle, but only in one direction. the other direction you are crashing into it.

100% agree. I sail in a harbour where its shallow in places, so where the swell/chop is running with the wind and it hits a shallow area (at low tide) the swell/chop slows down, which causes it to bend slightly. It means in a westerly wind I can sail at a deeper angle between the chop lines.

I've simplified and exaggerated it below, but you get the idea.

Not sailing downwind enough is a major reason for not going fast. You need plenty of wind to sail deeper as you are sailing away from the wind. If you can comfortably sail back upwind, then you havent got a big enough sail or its not windy enough.

Elsewhere in the harbour there are a lot of little sandbanks which affect the swell. Its a case of sailing along, spotting the flatter water and timing it with a gust. Thats why speeds in Poole harbour are slower than at Weymouth harbour with regulation flat water.

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decrepit said..
I'm a very asymmetric sailor, harness lines usually end up offset by around 10cm. Could be right hand bias, but I'm not sure.
front foot too light could be a geometry thing. Ideally you want the centre of effort of the sail in between the foot straps, if it is behind the centre, it will try to pull you backwards, lifting the front foot. Both boom height and mast track position will affect this. So in your case you maybe running the boom too high, with the mast base too close.

Swell/chop lines don't always run at 90deg to the wind/. The runs that are more parallel to the wind are usually faster. In some extreme cases running along the chop/swell is about the ideal angle, but only in one direction. the other direction you are crashing into it.

Aerodynamic lift is another factor, good lift from the fin will raise the windward rail, allowing wind to get under the nose and lift it. windward rail down will mean the wind is mainly on top of the board pushing nose down.
If you don't have enough lift from the fin, lifting the windward rail with your ankles (push down with toes, lift with heel), will help

the mast track was nearly all the way back.

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thedoor said..
Appreciate all that info.

Follow up questions.

1) Kind of struggled to get into my seat harness with the boom high today, so I had to lower it. adjustable harness lines were at max length.

2) Seems like my fastest runs are on port, but I felt much more control on starboard. Is this likely a wind/water condition thing or something to do with dominant right foot

3) I do get the sense there is very little weight on my front foot and if I relax that leg I feel it would fly out of the front strap. Not sure if it technique or kit set up. This is particularly noticable on port

Not that I am an expert but ... regarding 3) your straps might be too far back, or you body position might be to much toward the rear. Rotating your hips a bit forward, like we do on a foil but much less, might help.

And kind of related, I noticed that the strap position on my AV help with body position. My third time out with the board, just a couple of days ago, powered up with 6.0, hinging the hips just a tiny bit forward corrected the lift I was getting out of chop. Doing so with the rear foot slightly angled feels very natural, and made the position felt nicely "planted", very stable.

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duzzi said..

thedoor said..
Appreciate all that info.

Follow up questions.

1) Kind of struggled to get into my seat harness with the boom high today, so I had to lower it. adjustable harness lines were at max length.

2) Seems like my fastest runs are on port, but I felt much more control on starboard. Is this likely a wind/water condition thing or something to do with dominant right foot

3) I do get the sense there is very little weight on my front foot and if I relax that leg I feel it would fly out of the front strap. Not sure if it technique or kit set up. This is particularly noticable on port

Not that I am an expert but ... regarding 3) your straps might be too far back, or you body position might be to much toward the rear. Rotating your hips a bit forward, like we do on a foil but much less, might help.

And kind of related, I noticed that the strap position on my AV help with body position. My third time out with the board, just a couple of days ago, powered up with 6.0, hinging the hips just a tiny bit forward corrected the lift I was getting out of chop. Doing so with the rear foot slightly angled feels very natural, and made the position felt nicely "planted", very stable.

As you said so many variables that are very subtle then add rider experience.....I will try shifting my weight around a bit to see how it affects that front foot stability.

Damn that board looks nice. You had trouble with straps on your other board correct? Subtle difference or easy to spot by looking at it?

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thedoor said..

duzzi said..

thedoor said..
Appreciate all that info.

Follow up questions.

1) Kind of struggled to get into my seat harness with the boom high today, so I had to lower it. adjustable harness lines were at max length.

2) Seems like my fastest runs are on port, but I felt much more control on starboard. Is this likely a wind/water condition thing or something to do with dominant right foot

3) I do get the sense there is very little weight on my front foot and if I relax that leg I feel it would fly out of the front strap. Not sure if it technique or kit set up. This is particularly noticable on port

Not that I am an expert but ... regarding 3) your straps might be too far back, or you body position might be to much toward the rear. Rotating your hips a bit forward, like we do on a foil but much less, might help.

And kind of related, I noticed that the strap position on my AV help with body position. My third time out with the board, just a couple of days ago, powered up with 6.0, hinging the hips just a tiny bit forward corrected the lift I was getting out of chop. Doing so with the rear foot slightly angled feels very natural, and made the position felt nicely "planted", very stable.

As you said so many variables that are very subtle then add rider experience.....I will try shifting my weight around a bit to see how it affects that front foot stability.

Damn that board looks nice. You had trouble with straps on your other board correct? Subtle difference or easy to spot by looking at it?

Large difference, the Futura has a relatively recognized "problem" with straps put too much inward. The front ones can easily use another 3-4 cm outward. Compare with my old Isonic ... I still have to do the surgery necessary to take the straps out ...

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duzzi said..

thedoor said..

duzzi said..

thedoor said..
Appreciate all that info.

Follow up questions.

1) Kind of struggled to get into my seat harness with the boom high today, so I had to lower it. adjustable harness lines were at max length.

2) Seems like my fastest runs are on port, but I felt much more control on starboard. Is this likely a wind/water condition thing or something to do with dominant right foot

3) I do get the sense there is very little weight on my front foot and if I relax that leg I feel it would fly out of the front strap. Not sure if it technique or kit set up. This is particularly noticable on port

Not that I am an expert but ... regarding 3) your straps might be too far back, or you body position might be to much toward the rear. Rotating your hips a bit forward, like we do on a foil but much less, might help.

And kind of related, I noticed that the strap position on my AV help with body position. My third time out with the board, just a couple of days ago, powered up with 6.0, hinging the hips just a tiny bit forward corrected the lift I was getting out of chop. Doing so with the rear foot slightly angled feels very natural, and made the position felt nicely "planted", very stable.

As you said so many variables that are very subtle then add rider experience.....I will try shifting my weight around a bit to see how it affects that front foot stability.

Damn that board looks nice. You had trouble with straps on your other board correct? Subtle difference or easy to spot by looking at it?

Large difference, the Futura has a relatively recognized "problem" with straps put too much inward. The front ones can easily use another 3-4 cm outward. Compare with my old Isonic ... I do not know what they were thinking, you have to be on the rail. I still have to do the surgery necessary to take the straps out ...

oh wow. Should at least have had a more outboard option

Talking of straps, and light front foot. Moving the front strap back may help. Especially if you're a bit short.
R&D on slalom/speed boards are usually done by big guys. There's been cases here where shorter guys have gained 2kts by shifting front strap back. They made up aluminium spacers, that screwed into existing holes, with strap attachments further back.

This will get you further back from the rig, and relieve that light front foot thing. Also gets your weight further back, letting the nose come up more.

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decrepit said..
Talking of straps, and light front foot. Moving the front strap back may help. Especially if you're a bit short.
R&D on slalom/speed boards are usually done by big guys. There's been cases here where shorter guys have gained 2kts by shifting front strap back. They made up aluminium spacers, that screwed into existing holes, with strap attachments further back.

This will get you further back from the rig, and relieve that light front foot thing. Also gets your weight further back, letting the nose come up more.

This year at Lake George I felt like my front foot wanted to come out at times.I really had to curl up the toes and pull on the footstrap.
I think I was on my 90 litre well powered going upwind or across.
I haven't had the issue before and felt like I'd opened the sail a bit and swung my body back so the pull was backwards. I figured it was just my stance but I might check settings next time.

All that's true, but each has other effects that need to taken into account. For example one of the questions that he could not answer was if he preferred using the mast foot or the boom height to control nose lift.

Being tall but skinny i like to use the boom height in combination with harness lines to get a low as required to hold onto a sail. I tend to use the mast foot when I want the adjustment to be less dependant on my stance. But I still do both at the same time.

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sboardcrazy said..

decrepit said..
Talking of straps, and light front foot. Moving the front strap back may help. Especially if you're a bit short.
R&D on slalom/speed boards are usually done by big guys. There's been cases here where shorter guys have gained 2kts by shifting front strap back. They made up aluminium spacers, that screwed into existing holes, with strap attachments further back.

This will get you further back from the rig, and relieve that light front foot thing. Also gets your weight further back, letting the nose come up more.

This year at Lake George I felt like my front foot wanted to come out at times.I really had to curl up the toes and pull on the footstrap.
I think I was on my 90 litre well powered going upwind or across.
I haven't had the issue before and felt like I'd opened the sail a bit and swung my body back so the pull was backwards. I figured it was just my stance but I might check settings next time.

Kind of interesting that we are saying the opposite? ... I think that having too much of a light front foot is related to weight too much backward, and I'd be tempted to move the back footstrap forward, or hinge my weight forward. Now I have to find a way to reproduce a light foot on my set up

But there has been plenty of discussion on the topic www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/Front-foot-issues?page=1 and there is this too:

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duzzi said..>> Kind of interesting that we are saying the opposite? ... I think that having too much of a light front foot is related to weight too much backward, and I'd be tempted to move the back footstrap forward, or hinge my weight forward. Now I have to find a way to reproduce a light foot on my set up

But there has been plenty of discussion on the topic www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/Front-foot-issues?page=1 and there is this too:

Depends if you want more control or more speed. In this case we're trying to fly the board to get more speed.
So moving weight back is the objective.
The front foot problem here was caused by moving the rig right back to achieve this. So moving the sailor back underneath the sail centre of effort should be the best solution.

Yesterday I did move my front foot strap back one hole. Today was an underpowered session on a different sail 7.8m but the foot felt much better (boom and mast track were the same). Not sure how it will feel when fully powered up.

Eventhough I slogged 90% of the time, I still considering it a good day. Super flat water at that spot

Some footage I found from the same lake

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decrepit said..

duzzi said..>> Kind of interesting that we are saying the opposite? ... I think that having too much of a light front foot is related to weight too much backward, and I'd be tempted to move the back footstrap forward, or hinge my weight forward. Now I have to find a way to reproduce a light foot on my set up

But there has been plenty of discussion on the topic www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/Front-foot-issues?page=1 and there is this too:

Depends if you want more control or more speed. In this case we're trying to fly the board to get more speed.
So moving weight back is the objective.
The front foot problem here was caused by moving the rig right back to achieve this. So moving the sailor back underneath the sail centre of effort should be the best solution.

You are oversimplifying, and putting your weight back is not the objective, the objective is to have a stable ride. Moving the weight back, or moving the straps back, will not necessarily make you go faster. It that was true we would all have the rear foot strap at the end of the board. As an experiment, just try to see what happens to your speed if you put your weight too much back (like in the youtube above).

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thedoor said..
Yesterday I did move my front foot strap back one hole. Today was an underpowered session on a different sail 7.8m but the foot felt much better (boom and mast track were the same). Not sure how it will feel when fully powered up.

Eventhough I slogged 90% of the time, I still considering it a good day. Super flat water at that spot
Some footage I found from the same lake

ah! San Louis reservoir! I never sailed there, it is a two hours car ride, but I should check it out this summer!

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duzzi said..

decrepit said..

duzzi said..>> Kind of interesting that we are saying the opposite? ... I think that having too much of a light front foot is related to weight too much backward, and I'd be tempted to move the back footstrap forward, or hinge my weight forward. Now I have to find a way to reproduce a light foot on my set up

But there has been plenty of discussion on the topic www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/Front-foot-issues?page=1 and there is this too:

Depends if you want more control or more speed. In this case we're trying to fly the board to get more speed.
So moving weight back is the objective.
The front foot problem here was caused by moving the rig right back to achieve this. So moving the sailor back underneath the sail centre of effort should be the best solution.

You are oversimplifying, and putting your weight back is not the objective, the objective is to have a stable ride. Moving the weight back, or moving the straps back, will not necessarily make you go faster. It that was true we would all have the rear foot strap at the end of the board. As an experiment, just try to see what happens to your speed if you put your weight too much back (like in the youtube above).

that's a bit dismissive. Decrepit is a very experienced speed sailor who has cracked 40kts. Have you?
moving your weight back IS the objective, but not indefinitely. You have to see how far you can take it until control issues come into play. This is the balance point you need to to find and it will be variable depending on rider skill and water conditions.

Thanks Stretchy,

The original question was how to get the board to fly.
Earlier good advice was to move weight back until tail walking occurred, then move forward until control is regained
The OP was trying to get his weight back to achieve this, and ran into the front foot problem.
So moving front strap back is the next step to try.
Moving back strap forward is totally counter productive, would be easier to move mast base back where it was.

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Stretchy said..

duzzi said..

decrepit said..

duzzi said..>> Kind of interesting that we are saying the opposite? ... I think that having too much of a light front foot is related to weight too much backward, and I'd be tempted to move the back footstrap forward, or hinge my weight forward. Now I have to find a way to reproduce a light foot on my set up

But there has been plenty of discussion on the topic www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/Front-foot-issues?page=1 and there is this too:

Depends if you want more control or more speed. In this case we're trying to fly the board to get more speed.
So moving weight back is the objective.
The front foot problem here was caused by moving the rig right back to achieve this. So moving the sailor back underneath the sail centre of effort should be the best solution.

You are oversimplifying, and putting your weight back is not the objective, the objective is to have a stable ride. Moving the weight back, or moving the straps back, will not necessarily make you go faster. It that was true we would all have the rear foot strap at the end of the board. As an experiment, just try to see what happens to your speed if you put your weight too much back (like in the youtube above).

that's a bit dismissive. Decrepit is a very experienced speed sailor who has cracked 40kts. Have you?
moving your weight back IS the objective, but not indefinitely. You have to see how far you can take it until control issues come into play. This is the balance point you need to to find and it will be variable depending on rider skill and water conditions.

I am not really sure what's dismissive, sorry if my reply sounds so. I was actually just "explained" that putting the strap backward increases speed and putting it forward increases control ... We all reply to this threads without knowing the level of expertise of the members we talk to, but I was not questioning anybody's expertise.

Anyway, sure, you don't fly, move the strap back, ops, now you tail-walk, well put them forward ... if you can, there is not an infinite number of positions to try. So other factors are at play, and that's all I am saying. Change sail, or fin, and things can change drammatically. My asset problems have never been solved by the strap position (at 70 Kg out of three I typically use rear-most, or second to rear-most.)

PS just to satisfy your desire for references: below is my first speed-slalom board, no real photos. I loved that board! And I have no photos of the Seatrend speed board I had in the very early 90s. (1991?) It was kind of a unsailable bronco, with everything in the wrong place. No GPS back then but I doubt I crossed 25 knots with it! And sorry, but no I never crossed 40 knots. As partial justification I doubt anybody has done so in the San Francisco Bay Area. There are no speed strips ... maybe we should try to go to the salt ponds. My top speed have been rather pathetic 36 and change 2" (35 10") with a Carbon Art 52 and HSM GPS race sails, about ten years ago, then I got tired of carrying a GPS because I was not ever crossing above that, and actually well below. Typical 28-32 knots.

All good Duzzi
CA52 and HSM GPS sails are a sweet combo, I used to have them. I still have my CA52, it's very used and abused now but still my all time favourite board.

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Stretchy said..
All good Duzzi
CA52 and HSM GPS sails are a sweet combo, I used to have them. I still have my CA52, it's very used and abused now but still my all time favourite board.

Yes, it was. I sold the CA 52 last year (one foot strap position by the way ), but I think I have found a new love with the AV Modena 88.

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duzzi said,
As partial justification I doubt anybody has done so in the San Francisco Bay Area. There are no speed strips

Well there's your difference. First thing you need for speed is flat water, that's what all my experience is and how my gear is tuned. I'm hopeless in chop and hate it, it's not good for this ancient back anyway.

In chop you need to bridge between the peaks, a board tuned my way just slams into the walls, and yes, will be slower than a board tuned for more weight forward, flattening the board out.