After Green Island my GW60 watch decided to totally malfunction...must have been too much speed for it
Bought the watch early 2017 so is out of warranty. I've always looked after it. Going to cost $150 for Locosys to check it out and maybe replace it with a 2nd hand one. This all seems a bit steep to me for something that isn't that old and loads of people seem to be having problems with them.
Anyway I invested in a Garmin Fenix 5 late last year (pretty heavy investment too, but love it). Please GPSTC/KA72 somehow work out that we can use these watches to log our sessions.

This is what you need:

www.motion-gps.com/motion/index.html

Noooo, no more gps devices, I just want to be able to use my Garmin

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sailquik said..
This is what you need:

www.motion-gps.com/motion/index.html

I could be wrong but isn't there a very long wait time on the Motion . ??

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Kazza said..
Noooo, no more gps devices, I just want to be able to use my Garmin

Sorry Kazza we've tried, but there's just no way to validate their accuracy. Garmin just don't answer any emails about it.

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sailquik said..
This is what you need:

www.motion-gps.com/motion/index.html

I know people who ordered one 5 months ago and can get one.
Also John340 lost his on water.

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Kazza said..
After Green Island my GW60 watch decided to totally malfunction...must have been too much speed for it
Bought the watch early 2017 so is out of warranty. I've always looked after it. Going to cost $150 for Locosys to check it out and maybe replace it with a 2nd hand one. This all seems a bit steep to me for something that isn't that old and loads of people seem to be having problems with them.
Anyway I invested in a Garmin Fenix 5 late last year (pretty heavy investment too, but love it). Please GPSTC/KA72 somehow work out that we can use these watches to log our sessions.

You can upload to KA72 with Garmin.
You just can not post it to TC.

Send it in Kazza. I sent mine in with their return form and they sent me a refurbed one which was like new. Cost of postage to Taiwan.

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Cocky2 said..

sailquik said..
This is what you need:

www.motion-gps.com/motion/index.html

I know people who ordered one 5 months ago and can get one.
Also John340 lost his on water.

Motion is replacing it under warranty. Julien fully supports his product.

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John340 said.. >>>>Motion is replacing it under warranty. Julien fully supports his product.

And he's changing his design completely, I think that's part of the current delay. The move is to a completely sealed, inductive charging, blue tooth download, with strap fixed to device.

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Bradman said..
Send it in Kazza. I sent mine in with their return form and they sent me a refurbed one which was like new. Cost of postage to Taiwan.

Hmmm, maybe I will then. I sort of didn't like to trust the refurbed one either. Can't believe that a watch GW60 that cost $260 or $360 (can't remember) only lasted 2.5 years and others have the same problem with them.
So what's the problem with Garmin and GPSTC, surely an app can be developed? Garmin should become a sponsor for GPSTC, think of all the Garmins that people would buy........

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Kazza said..

Bradman said..
Send it in Kazza. I sent mine in with their return form and they sent me a refurbed one which was like new. Cost of postage to Taiwan.

Hmmm, maybe I will then. I sort of didn't like to trust the refurbed one either. Can't believe that a watch GW60 that cost $260 or $360 (can't remember) only lasted 2.5 years and others have the same problem with them.
So what's the problem with Garmin and GPSTC, surely an app can be developed? Garmin should become a sponsor for GPSTC, think of all the Garmins that people would buy........

I've got three failed GW60's, Kazza. (I had to borrow one for Green Island!) I've given up trying to get them repaired. They were never fit for purpose. I use a Fenix 5 now and post to KA72 only. The GPSTC honchos have made it quite clear, on these forums, that they will not accept Garmin data, even for the most unremarkable sessions. It's just not going to happen.

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John340 said..

Cocky2 said..

sailquik said..
This is what you need:

www.motion-gps.com/motion/index.html

I know people who ordered one 5 months ago and can get one.
Also John340 lost his on water.

Motion is replacing it under warranty. Julien fully supports his product.

How can he replace it if people have been waiting 5 months and still do not have one.

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Cocky2 said..

John340 said..

Cocky2 said..

sailquik said..
This is what you need:

www.motion-gps.com/motion/index.html

I know people who ordered one 5 months ago and can get one.
Also John340 lost his on water.

Motion is replacing it under warranty. Julien fully supports his product.

How can he replace it if people have been waiting 5 months and still do not have one.

Because as Mike said above, there is a new design coming and I'd think most are happy to wait, John340 doesn't seem too worried anyway

Hello, yes the waiting list is huge sorry, yes I replaced the silicone holders by something more sturdy, yes I replaced USB by wireless, yes I'm replacing John's device asap and yes, I asked everyone if they would rather wait for the new version and except twenty users or so, everyone said yes. If anyone wants to cancel for any reason, no problem, just warn me. I'm now only waiting for thinner batteries to roll out the wireless version.

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Boston! said..

Kazza said..

Bradman said..
Send it in Kazza. I sent mine in with their return form and they sent me a refurbed one which was like new. Cost of postage to Taiwan.

Hmmm, maybe I will then. I sort of didn't like to trust the refurbed one either. Can't believe that a watch GW60 that cost $260 or $360 (can't remember) only lasted 2.5 years and others have the same problem with them.
So what's the problem with Garmin and GPSTC, surely an app can be developed? Garmin should become a sponsor for GPSTC, think of all the Garmins that people would buy........

I've got three failed GW60's, Kazza. (I had to borrow one for Green Island!) I've given up trying to get them repaired. They were never fit for purpose. I use a Fenix 5 now and post to KA72 only. The GPSTC honchos have made it quite clear, on these forums, that they will not accept Garmin data, even for the most unremarkable sessions. It's just not going to happen.

I know of at least a dozen sailors who have dropped out of gpstc because their watches have failed it seems to me that for the sake of accuracy that is way over the top we have lost the original idea of team challenge being an inclusive fun activitiy.
From website
philosophy of the Challenge:Inclusiveness: That everyone in the windsurfing community be included from fun and social sailors, to the serious including Pro's. Participation: That it is important to participate, to be involved, to develop skills and improve Personal Best Times. Be involved all season, not just summer. Fun: That most importantly we have fun, and however you get it, from stacking it on a 15 knot run, to doing 40+ knots, or just having a beer/bourbon/wine with your friends after a session. Building relationships: That we connect people with the same passion, meet new people, create connections intra, inter-state, international and generally just build relationships and grow our community

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Cocky2 said..

sailquik said..
This is what you need:

www.motion-gps.com/motion/index.html

I know people who ordered one 5 months ago and can get one.
Also John340 lost his on water.

Go and look for John's... that's a cheap solution to your problem.

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firiebob said..

Cocky2 said..

John340 said..

Cocky2 said..

sailquik said..
This is what you need:

www.motion-gps.com/motion/index.html

I know people who ordered one 5 months ago and can get one.
Also John340 lost his on water.

Motion is replacing it under warranty. Julien fully supports his product.

How can he replace it if people have been waiting 5 months and still do not have one.

Because as Mike said above, there is a new design coming and I'd think most are happy to wait, John340 doesn't seem too worried anyway

Thanks Firie, I couldn't have said it better myself. I'm grateful I'm getting a replacement unit. I still have my GT31, so I don't mind waiting.

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Kazza said..
>>>> Can't believe that a watch GW60 that cost $260 or $360 (can't remember) only lasted 2.5 years and others have the same problem with them.
So what's the problem with Garmin and GPSTC, surely an app can be developed? Garmin should become a sponsor for GPSTC, think of all the Garmins that people would buy........

Aside from the batch of poor straps, I think the main problem with the GW60 is that the buttons "vent" when pressed.
The instructions do say not to press buttons when under water, but this isn't enough. If the watch has cooled down once you are sailing, pressing the buttons with wet fingers will suck in salt water, only a small amount, but enough to eventually corrode the contacts. Then the buttons stop working. This is fixable with contact cleaner, but it's a fiddly job. I think the GW60 fiasco was down to the locosys marketing department, they thought a watch would sell better, and ignored all our advice that a watch wasn't the way to go.

Kazza, the Garmins don't output any accuracy data, and there's no way we can make up for that.
It's a pity because they would possibly be approved if they did.
Windsurfing is an extremely small market for Garmin, they just aren't interested in us.

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Kazza said..

Can't believe that a watch GW60 that cost $260 or $360 (can't remember) only lasted 2.5 years and others have the same problem with them.

In fairness to Locosys, I think 2.5 years is reasonable for Australian conditions. I never was able to get the datasheet for the LP552425 LIPO, but I'm betting the absolute max temperature limit for the battery wouldn't be that good (50C ?.. 40C before the capacity starts derating ?). I've seen guys stick their GW60s on the dashs of their car in the middle of summer to dry them.

I'm no expert on GPS architecture, but I'm betting Locosys designed the GW60 to draw more current in order to trade off better sensitively (ie: better GPS reception). They did this because we Windsurfers want accuracy over everything. A device that draws more current from a battery is going to put more strain on it and will require more charging. LIPOs only have a finite number of charge/discharge cycles. It's a small battery that is being asked a lot from it IMO.

I just think Locosys should've been more honest with themselves and ask: How long is our product going to last under harsh environment like Australian Windsurfing ?. Would customers be happy with the product life ?

Me personally, I think the watch is a fantastic idea. It's the first time I've been able to see my speed in real time during a bear away.

Let me ask a simple question to the proponents of using other watches:
Would a two-tier posting system where most GPS watches could be used for posting, but only approved devices count for monthly rankings, be acceptable?

This would be somewhat similar to gps-speedsurfing.com, where separate rules exist for "record" rankings. If would mean you can post speeds from your every-day sessions from your Suuonto etc. watches, but if you want jelly beans, you'll need to use a Motion or Locosys unit.

I had a longer post written to explain why I'm asking, but the wrong-click monster ate it.

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Kazza said..

Kazza, the Motion is worth the wait. It complies with GPSTC, has a large easy to read display, long battery life, provides real time feedback on all 6 GPSTC disciplines, is fully supported by the designer/manufacturer who responds to user feedback and improves and warrants his product.

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jn1 said..

Kazza said..

Can't believe that a watch GW60 that cost $260 or $360 (can't remember) only lasted 2.5 years and others have the same problem with them.

In fairness to Locosys, I think 2.5 years is reasonable for Australian conditions. I never was able to get the datasheet for the LP552425 LIPO, but I'm betting the absolute max temperature limit for the battery wouldn't be that good (50C ?.. 40C before the capacity starts derating ?). I've seen guys stick their GW60s on the dashs of their car in the middle of summer to dry them.

I'm no expert on GPS architecture, but I'm betting Locosys designed the GW60 to draw more current in order to trade off better sensitively (ie: better GPS reception). They did this because we Windsurfers want accuracy over everything. A device that draws more current from a battery is going to put more strain on it and will require more charging. LIPOs only have a finite number of charge/discharge cycles. It's a small battery that is being asked a lot from it IMO.

I just think Locosys should've been more honest with themselves and ask: How long is our product going to last under harsh environment like Australian Windsurfing ?. Would customers be happy with the product life ?

Me personally, I think the watch is a fantastic idea. It's the first time I've been able to see my speed in real time during a bear away.

I recon two years is ok my first watch lasted over two years and I sail i lot. I like the watch on my wrist it's so easy to see im not sold on the motion its price is higher than the GW-60 which is fair but you can just buy a new GW-60 for less plus the Motions have been failing also.
Having said this my newish GW-60 fogged up the other day when I took it out of the hot car and put it on my wrist in the cool wind but it came good after sailing.
Like Decrepit said don't play with the buttons while on the water.
The GW-60 is lighter and better in my opinion

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John340 said..

Kazza said..

Kazza, the Motion is worth the wait. It complies with GPSTC, has a large easy to read display, long battery life, provides real time feedback on all 6 GPSTC disciplines, is fully supported by the designer/manufacturer who responds to user feedback and improves and warrants his product.

So how is Kazza going to post while waiting months for a motion to be built depending on how far down the waiting list ? Any bright ideas John, maybe you could lend one!!!

Wow, thanks for all the replies. Thank god I still have my GT31 which has never let me down. Be good just to have something else as back up so I think I'll send the watch back and get it checked out.
I never press the buttons in the water. I wash the watch in fresh water after every use (well after most uses). It's weird, over the last month since GI I've plugged the watch onto the charger and sometimes it will come on and every button works expect the gps button and then it just flutters out and won't come on again. It was plugged into Kaleb's computer on GI to get data off it, maybe it caught Buzzy disease

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boardsurfr said..
Let me ask a simple question to the proponents of using other watches:
Would a two-tier posting system where most GPS watches could be used for posting, but only approved devices count for monthly rankings, be acceptable?

This would be somewhat similar to gps-speedsurfing.com, where separate rules exist for "record" rankings. If would mean you can post speeds from your every-day sessions from your Suuonto etc. watches, but if you want jelly beans, you'll need to use a Motion or Locosys unit.

I had a longer post written to explain why I'm asking, but the wrong-click monster ate it.

Sounds like a good idea. I used to enjoy the banter with some of the sailors who use to post but have dropped out.

2 years and going strong on my Garmin watch. Worn 24/7 and I swim with it 3 times a week and press the button while in the water. Still on original band also!

Hi Kazza,

I assume you did not see the previous many threads about the Garmin and Suunto GPS sports watches on Seabreeze.

The subject has been explained at length by GPSTC and argued over by the same small group of individuals who continue to choose not get it I'm afraid.

In a nutshell, the issue with those devices about consistency and verification.

The decision was taken long ago to only allow posting from GPS deviced that record the Doppler speed error data so as to make it possible to very effectively verify the results as being real. We have seen some exceptionally false results from many devices in testing, even some of the approved ones, but at least with the approved ones we can verify that they are indeed false. No way to do that with any confidence in those other devices unfortunately.

But there is a factor of accuracy here as well. Virtually all the 'watch' type devices (except the GW-60) do not have room for an decent antenna and this does affect accuracy, consistency and error significantly. Even the smaller patch antenna in the GW-60 is marginal in it's reception and there are instances where in low satellite number availability, and with the less than ideal, compromised position on the wrist, it has ceased to get data during sessions. This did not happen with the GW-52 and GT-31's used at the same time, and certainly not the Motion which used up to 3 satellite systems concurrently (up to 27 satellites at any one time).

Many people do like the user convenience of the GW-60 in spite of it's shortcomings, and accept that it may have a limited lifespan (not unlike sails, masts , wetsuits and boards etc??) Others have found that theirs have lasted for hundreds of sessions and are still going well. I must say I have been very disappointed in the warranty backup and service attitude of Locosys re the GW-60.

The new Motion GPS is by far the best device for windsurfing we have seen, tested and used so far. It is a one man initiative by a very clever enthusiast in Belgium and he is very keen to solve any issues and is great on warranty and backup service. Because it is a one man operation he has been somewhat overwhelmed by the volume of orders and is taking steps to streamline and speed up his production. There have been almost no issues reported on the reliability or functioning of this GPS, but a few other issues that have led to improved wearing security, hence the redesign of the arm strap holder. There is a comprehensive report on it somewhere on Seabreeze from about a year ago when we went through the approval process.

In theory, it 'may' be possible to test enough (at least half a dozen) Garmin watches side by side, for hundereds of hours and 1000's of kilometers, to write firmware for them which would give us the vital information we would need for approval, but the manufacturer has shown zero interest in this and nobody else has the resources or access to the firmware to do it. It is extremly unlikely to ever happen, and is certainly beyond the ability and resources of anyone associated with the GPSTC.

I hope this helps.

My watch has worked well ( I care for it like its my child) and the only problem I have encountered is sometimes it won't connect to the utility. My simple fix is- clean the 4 stainless terminals on the back of the watch with a little stainless appliance cleaning powder (for cleaning stainless sinks and kitchen utensils) and a cotton bud. 20sec and problems with connectivity solved.
Might be of help to some.

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sailquik said..

The subject has been explained at length by GPSTC and argued over by the same small group of individuals who continue to choose not get it I'm afraid.

I've seen no evidence of anybody not getting your explanation. We just don't agree with it and like to point out that it seems at odds with the above quoted philosophy of the GPSTC (perhaps you need to update that?).

Just because you have explained it previously does not mean that we will stop presenting better options that would keep more GPSTC users happy such as the two tiered system mentioned above. In fact if you could take the time to point out any problems with a two tiered system, that would be appreciated.