Hey GTC Community, i HAVE BEEN ADVISED by someone that the legal waver everyone signs to join the GTC may not be worth the paper its written on.

This is potentially very troubling for Nebbs & Myself, as we could be sued and lose all of our assets? Most unlikely hopefully in the community we have, however still a possibility?

Does anyone have relatives that could give our document a look over and see whether it has any legal standing, or we may need to consider taking out indemnity insurance which is very expensive?

Any help would be appreciated!!!!!!

what could you be sued for ?
Making us go too fast ?

Loss of earnings due to time spent sailing rather than working.

Hi Hardie, my wife (used to be a lawyer by trade) just had a look at the form. Any form like that doesn't absolve you of responsibility if a court can prove you were negligent, and that negligence resulted in an injury or death. However the nature of the GPSTC, and the fact that you basically administer it by collating results on a website, and have made it clear to potential members that it's a potentially dangerous activity, means it's extremely unlikely that you would be found responsible for someone else having a windsurfing accident miles away from you. You'd be extremely unlikely to be sued particularly if you are just individuals with not many assets (which means a lawyer who is thinking about suing you on behalf of an injured or dead person would think twice as even if they were successful they may not win enough to cover the legal fees). On the other hand, if you organised a speed event, had direct control over the participants, made the course over shallow reefs, the tide was low, someone catapults head first into a rock and dies, then you'd probably be seen to be negligent in setting the speed run in that area, and in that case the form doesn't mean anything and you might be sued regardless of whether the participant signed the form.
Having said that its worth getting participants to sign the form for GPSTC purposes and parts of the form are important, particularly the bit that states that windsurfing is an inherently dangerous activity with particular risks and that participants acknowledge this by signing the form. Bits are also worth fixing up if you decide to use the form - the bold bits will probably be viewed by a court as just being headings so paras g and h will need a bit more work (plus there's no paras c, d, or e). Hope that helps. PS my wife says to remind you that she is no longer a practising lawyer (now a domestic engineer) and this shouldn't be seen as legal advice but just information which should be checked by an actual lawyer.
The bill is in the mail.

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LeStef said...

what could you be sued for ?
Making us go too fast ?

injury to self if they're selfish bastards or started by a family member seeking compensation when someone breaks their neck etc- probably protected by waiver but still an inconvenience.

Bigger risk is that if someone else is injured and they find out you participating in a challenge they could seek compensation from the challenge organisers also.

AWA style insurance would probably be a good way to go, it is relatively inexpensive and many of the participants would already have it (very inexpensive when you consider worst case scenario).

Unfortunately it's the country we live in now- most things you would say thats just stupid. The majority of participants would never consider legal action but many others affected by an incident would.

i think its absolutely diabolical if anyone should raise any kind of lawsuit due to injury while taking part in a sport they themselves chose to do, there is no financial gain from taking part and as this sport is governed by the weather and sailors ability if an accident were to happen it would be at sailors own risk at all times, only in the instance where another sailor where to be involved either as the cause of injury or recipient of injury would there be any cause for concern and all legal suit claims would be against the active party who caused injury. this is where personal liability insurance is required and being a member of a recognised organisation that supplies insurance for membership is the best course of action.

ie: i sail, i crash, i break my neck. MY FAULT ENTIRELY
or i sail, joe bloggs crashes into me through no fault of mine, i suffer injury and can be proved as their fault, their insurance will cover the accident

the latter is something we have to deal with at a venue here in the UK even on the big wind days we still have freestylers searching for the same stretch of flat water and tend to perform their tricks right in your planned path just as your about to slingshot down the course, who would be at fault, them for failing there trick and wiping out to suffer a speedsailor on the edge of control at 40+knots hitting them

in this instance we need to form a level of respect for everyones form of the sport and where they are likely to colide

personally i dont think there is anything to worry about as in all instances where injury has been caused due to a sole participant injury, it has been stated the participation is done at own risk and only where insufficient safety protocols or support havent been supplied at "sanctioned events" ie: rescue craft at say the Barrum Windfest.

if participant just turns up to go sail on a windy day with the intention to post results on the site then this isnt organised, or sanctioned and therefore all done solely at own risk.

i am not a lawyer, i have no legal training, this is solely my own personal opinion.

true but-

in aus not many sailors have insurance, it's not required.

as said 99.9% of participants probably wouldn't. But that doesn't stop your disgruntled housewife from taking action when hubby dies doing something she didnt approve of, since she's left income-less as a result.

it is stupid, and mostly wrong but it's the way of life we chose

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K567 said...


personally i dont think there is anything to worry about as in all instances where injury has been caused due to a sole participant injury, it has been stated the participation is done at own risk and only where insufficient safety protocols or support havent been supplied at "sanctioned events" ie: rescue craft at say the Barrum Windfest.

burrum windfest has had between 3-4 rescue craft at the last 2 events and the one prior to that had 2, we also have spotters and cover rescue signalling during briefing, we also use a sign on and sign off procedure plus mandate the use of bouyancy vests.

we also use waivers and require all competitors to have current insurance plus seek all authority approvals which for burrum means maritime safety, department of fisheries and department of environment and recource management plus this year local council permits for the local park.

i also usually carry a first aid kit and contact numbers for water police, volunteer marine rescue qld, ambulance service and maritime safety.

so we take safety very seriously including asking competitors to stay closer to shore etc if needed.

edit* we also cover expected weather conditions and course conditions as well as any additional authority conditions placed on the event at briefings which are held each day of competition.

mk's right, a waiver can't waive 3rd party persons is my understanding. you need insurance which will hopefully protect you if you need it.

Gestalt
just wanted to say I wasnt pointing a finger at Barrum Windfest I was just using it as an example of an organised/sanctioned event thats all

sorry if it sounded like i was.....

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hardie said...

Hey GTC Community, i HAVE BEEN ADVISED by someone that the legal waver everyone signs to join the GTC may not be worth the paper its written on.

This is potentially very troubling for Nebbs & Myself, as we could be sued and lose all of our assets? Most unlikely hopefully in the community we have, however still a possibility?

Does anyone have relatives that could give our document a look over and see whether it has any legal standing, or we may need to consider taking out indemnity insurance which is very expensive?

Any help would be appreciated!!!!!!

The other problem is that if you are sued or need to have legal representation...who pays for it. You may have to fight a case and even if you win or lose you will still be out of pocket for legal expenses. I'm not sure if you can buy insurance to cover your legal costs or if it would be covered by an umbrella liability policy that would cover all your assets. It is something you need to look very carefully at to make sure both you and Nebs are covered whatever the circumstances.

For resource: www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/SportsLeJ/2005/1.html

Have some case law judgements for sports event injuries.

However "online sporting events" such as GTC has another set of rules that need to be applied/ defined!

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Roo said...

hardie said...

Hey GTC Community, i HAVE BEEN ADVISED by someone that the legal waver everyone signs to join the GTC may not be worth the paper its written on.

This is potentially very troubling for Nebbs & Myself, as we could be sued and lose all of our assets? Most unlikely hopefully in the community we have, however still a possibility?

Does anyone have relatives that could give our document a look over and see whether it has any legal standing, or we may need to consider taking out indemnity insurance which is very expensive?

Any help would be appreciated!!!!!!

The other problem is that if you are sued or need to have legal representation...who pays for it. You may have to fight a case and even if you win or lose you will still be out of pocket for legal expenses. I'm not sure if you can buy insurance to cover your legal costs or if it would be covered by an umbrella liability policy that would cover all your assets. It is something you need to look very carefully at to make sure both you and Nebs are covered whatever the circumstances.

I agree with Roo, should a case arise wether anyone is liable or not it's still going to cost money to get legal representation,the Law system is setup so the party with the most money wins! you only have to look at past case judgements.
Have you asked the same question on the GPSS site? it would be interesting to see what they have in place if anything.

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choco said...
the Law system is setup so the party with the most money wins!

Spot on (in civil law anyway).

You might find that gpsss avoids it by being a collaboration of results- say no different to guiness book of records.

GTC is a "challenge" indicating some form of competition takes place, unfortunately the terminology can make all the difference.

Hard's you probably find no one will want to put their name to it (especially when it's something they normally earn $ for), if someone does then the gtc is very lucky. All windsurfing clubs are in the same boat hence the awa affiliations.

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K567 said...

Gestalt
just wanted to say I wasnt pointing a finger at Barrum Windfest I was just using it as an example of an organised/sanctioned event thats all

sorry if it sounded like i was.....

it's alll good, i realised you were making an analogy, figured i'd make the point none the less as not everyone realises these things when they read posts 1-2 years down the track.

Well I'm a member of the UKWA which gives me £3 million third party cover on the water in or out of competition and up to 30 days anywhere in Europe.The cost for this is £45 a year which i think is priceless.

I also have accident, fatality insurance with my mortgage so i'm covered Hardie.

Is there nothing over there like this?

cheers.

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Roo said...
The other problem is that if you are sued or need to have legal representation...who pays for it. You may have to fight a case and even if you win or lose you will still be out of pocket for legal expenses.

You can have all the signed waivers, tons of insurance & know all the "case law" that may apply to the matter that may arise, however as Roo said legal representation cost is what will take you out!

Roo's comment is spot on.
After giving lots of money to some lawyers, just to get to the point where the insurer paid up, cost me a house deposit. Even before it was decided who was in the wrong!
Professional indemnity insurance might be best, such as one taken out by an incorporation- GPSTC might think about incorporating. Its not a big process badminton clubs, cycling clubs, people do it everyday.
Even if we are card carrying windsurfing association members, nice guys at beer time, a broken head brings out the worst in people, ambulance chasers live on it and it will cost-just to get yourself out of it.
PM me for a contact with some sound sporting related insurance advice, here in Perth.

Thanx 4 all the advice so far including the PM's, I will make a summary, including some of the legal advice that people are seeking on the GTC's behalf, then go see one of the recommended lawyers.

Be pretty sad if Nebbs & I were finacially ruined for trying to do something for the windsurfing community!!

"Nebs and Hardie- dont know them, never heard of them, i am sure that the website is run by trained monkeys in the outer regions of Timbuktoo!".....pass it on.....

don't they make hoses or something like that?

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tobyhodgso said...

i am sure that the website is run by trained monkeys in the outer regions of Timbuktoo!

Surprisingly enough this isn't very far from the truth!

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nebbian said...

tobyhodgso said...

i am sure that the website is run by trained monkeys in the outer regions of Timbuktoo!

Surprisingly enough this isn't very far from the truth!

Hey I resemble that remark! Even if this isn't the website you were talking about...

nebs and hardie, hmmmm never heard of them, the blokes your looking for are just down the road, take a left and second house on the right....