I have been sailing a Lorch Div S 83 speed board for a while now(225 x 49.5).
At first I hated it including a spin out crash at 35+knots. It would let go at random.
But as with so many boards a bit of tweaking has turned it in to a very versatile board despite its unusual shape.
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I found that moving the back strap forward cured the spin out problem but I have not been able to get the top end speed out of it I would like.
One of my earliest sessions got a 37.5 but recent sessions have been 36 ish max.

I checked the rocker and there was a slight negative in front of the fin. Refaired it and had a good session on Sunday where it felt like it was accelerating better. Wind was strong /gusty but I was topping out at 34.8 (4 runs) apart from one squall for a 35.5.

Looking at Realspeed the runs are very peaky which has always been my speed issue.





There was short chop but it was not bad. So finally getting to my questions for the gurus:

1. How do you make a small board/ small fin (49.5 wide, 24cm 45 degree weedy, 6.3 Loft Racing Blade on rdm) go faster across the wind to be able to benefit from the slingshot? As you can see from the images my fastest run had an entry speed before the bear away of about 28 knots(2nd 27)

2. How can you maintain board speed after the slingshot in chop? Six seconds after the peak I am down to sub 31 knots(2nd 30). Bear away is about 40 degrees by the end of the 10sec on fastest (2nd 35)

Looking for suggestions on fin type, size but still keeping the stability through the chop and any tuning tips. (Sail is bagged to touching the boom between the harness lines and mast position has been varied)

Thanks in advance for putting up with the long winded post and looking forward to the discussion.

Hey lao shi if you have your board fully tweeked are your spars stiff enough dont know what your specs are 4 your sails but loss of energy through execive spar flex will loose you transfer of energy and a stiff body posture helps [eg being as rock like] you may allready be onto it but worth a thought all the same !

He Lao there was no weed so i'm wondering why you used a weedy. i used my KA23sym. Perhaps a decent speed fin might give u a few more knots. My local on a westerly is really hard to get high peaks as you are sailing across the gusts not with them as its straight onshore so dont be too dissaponted.

Thanks, guys.
Stroppo, you could well be right. I run the Loft on an 85% skinny because it gives a great range and keeps the sail really light feeling. Maybe it is time to try it on a 430 SDM and see if it has more grunt.
Have used the KA23 before, Bender and it doesn't seem to make much difference to speed. I was not sure about the weed and so went safe and the Elmo 24 is so solid through the chop that it lends confidence where as I have had difficulties with the 23 on this board when it gets choppy.

Keep the thoughts coming.

Stronger wind may help, you were on the pace with most people apart from Strop and Crash

I also use a slingshot 23 when its choppy it feels bigger than the KA and is rock solid in chop. Ur most welcome to try mine next time you visit Lao

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lao she said...

:

1. How do you make a small board/ small fin (49.5 wide, 24cm 45 degree weedy, 6.3 Loft Racing Blade on rdm) go faster across the wind to be able to benefit from the slingshot? As you can see from the images my fastest run had an entry speed the discussion.

all jokes aside lao shi try a sdm on that sail , i brought one of those sails at the start of the season"new" used it twice and ordered a N/P 6.3 EVO 111 and hit 37 on the dial, honestly i was using a rs6.2 on a rdm and it softened the sail up heaps but the sail had enough balls to compensate i dont think the same for the loft

Milked about a 42 out of that board at the PiT. I used a KA23 Assy. It has a fairly wide tail so needs a bit of fin lift to unstick it, suspect a 24 45 deg weedy may not be generating enough. If there is no weed I would try a liftier fin and see how it goes.

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lao shi said...

Thanks, guys.
Stroppo, you could well be right. I run the Loft on an 85% skinny because it gives a great range and keeps the sail really light feeling. Maybe it is time to try it on a 430 SDM and see if it has more grunt.
Have used the KA23 before, Bender and it doesn't seem to make much difference to speed. I was not sure about the weed and so went safe and the Elmo 24 is so solid through the chop that it lends confidence where as I have had difficulties with the 23 on this board when it gets choppy.

Keep the thoughts coming.

Hey Lao I've started to use a Loft RacePro SDM mast in the 6.3 and it has transformed the sail in every way, even lighter feel in the hands, ultra stable, more shape down low and accerlerates lot harder love it!

Lao, I tend to agree w Elmo, You were on the pace, i wouldnt compare with Crasher & Stroppo. All the suggestions here, will help you tweak a little more speed, I was 4 knots off your pace you werent slow. In ideal conditions at shark bay I was always about 3 knots behind Crasher. It doesnt mean I cant improve, because I can, I'm no great speed sailor, we can all improve. However, the conditions at Australind suited 100kg+ sailors, who could keep a board weighted down on the chop, & last time I looked u looked in the 70 to 80kg bracket!!, If ya wanna go a lot faster either get fattter, or think weight jacket??

being fat hasnt helped me go any faster i feel ripped off....

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ratz said...

being fat hasnt helped me go any faster i feel ripped off....

you will blow you PB's away in 25knts on your CASP50 Ratz

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Bender said...

[bratz said...[/b]

being fat hasn't helped me go any faster i feel ripped off....

you will blow you PB's away in 25 knots on your CASP50 Ratz

that's what a friend said to me just wait till it blowing 25 to 30 and you'll love it "WTF" as choco said it needs a SDM because there just isn't any bottom end on a RDM

Let me clarify the weight issue

Individually the most important things in speed sailing are geting your skills and techniques right, and having the right gear set up perfectly, once you have that sussed, which I reckon Lao Shi is close to, then the only way to get dramatic improvement is weight. If you're a fat slob like me, and sail crap, with ya gear not tuned for the conditions, then it duznt matter how much you weigh. How many times have I sailed when others were doing 40kts, lighter than me, and i couldnt

Take Daffy for example one of Australia's most skilled and experienced speed sailors, he has a peak speed of 47kts. He is around the 75 to 80kg mark. If he was 110kg+, he would already be in the 50kt Club. He may still get there, but extra weight would be the only way he could dramatically improve speed. IMHO

Thanks guys for the comments.
I appreciate that I am holding my own out there but after 23K Km it is about still learning to try and go faster. I have not been using the weight jacket too much as we have had few properly windy days. I did put 5kg on at Glory Holes and it made no difference to my speed.
I would be interested to see Stroppo / Crasher's runs to see the speed profile they are getting and I bet they are carrying more speed in to the bear away. It can't just be weight. So how do the rest of us mere mortals that have to sail in average conditions achieve that?

Also do they continue to bear away or are they holding a line after the initial slingshot?
Hardie, I do not doubt that weight plays its part but look at the Snake. He is not heavy but he is fast! Ado is another. I know I fall in to the worst category for speed of not tall and light but keen to try and do better.

Hey Mark, I was on the same size sail and are 35kg heavier. Had a 23 slingshot in on the 55wide. 35 to 36 ave on all my runs most of the time. I watched you out there an thought you were going pretty quick. Is you boom carbon because that tranfers more energy. Next time we have a sail together will help with some tuning. Maybe you were going to broad? Across the wind there was not much of your board in the water! Looked good to me. Fins are a big player in my mind.

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lao shi said...

Thanks guys for the comments.
I appreciate that I am holding my own out there but after 23K Km it is about still learning to try and go faster. I have not been using the weight jacket too much as we have had few properly windy days. I did put 5kg on at Glory Holes and it made no difference to my speed.
I would be interested to see Stroppo / Crasher's runs to see the speed profile they are getting and I bet they are carrying more speed in to the bear away. It can't just be weight. So how do the rest of us mere mortals that have to sail in average conditions achieve that?

Also do they continue to bear away or are they holding a line after the initial slingshot?
Hardie, I do not doubt that weight plays its part but look at the Snake. He is not heavy but he is fast! Ado is another. I know I fall in to the worst category for speed of not tall and light but keen to try and do better.

WEll there is one other variable not mentioned so far, and I know how Stroppo & Crasher sail and have seen them use this variable, "and its the old" (balls of steel go for it and think of the consequences later) "variable", one i dont posses or more crudely as some would say HTFU Mr Shi, so Lao ask yourself this question (free therapy here) are you prpepared to do an injury to go faster?????/ Why do you think we call Crasher Crash Test Dummy?

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hardie said...

Let me clarify the weight issue

Individually the most important things in speed sailing are geting your skills and techniques right, and having the right gear set up perfectly, once you have that sussed, which I reckon Lao Shi is close to, then the only way to get dramatic improvement is weight. If you're a fat slob like me, and sail crap, with ya gear not tuned for the conditions, then it duznt matter how much you weigh. How many times have I sailed when others were doing 40kts, lighter than me, and i couldnt

Take Daffy for example one of Australia's most skilled and experienced speed sailors, he has a peak speed of 47kts. He is around the 75 to 80kg mark. If he was 110kg+, he would already be in the 50kt Club. He may still get there, but extra weight would be the only way he could dramatically improve speed. IMHO

Spot on Hard's.
I was right on 74K those 2 days I hit 47 peaks, with 5kg of extra lead in my vest. More weight would probably have helped, but on the big day 27th September. 2009, more weight between the thighs would have made more difference!

Thought I was going hard at Glory Holes
But don't know what I need to do to go harder(and risk crashing)
Boom is carbon. I do think the mast issue is worth exploring. Perhaps the extra flex of the rdm only gives a quick boost to speed and then flexes in the chop losing power as Stroppo mentioned.

If either of Crasher/ Stroppo are prepared to share your tracks I am happy to post screenshots to this thread dville123456 at yahoo.com same goes for Bender and Elmo.

It would be interesting to compare bear away angles and entry speeds.

So Sailquik, what was the rest of the set up for the 42knt run and conditions if you can remember?

just emailed my tracks Lao

Thanks Bender
Run 1 entry speed 31.65 bear away 35 degrees




Run 2 31.7 bear away 30 degrees

So coming in 3 knots faster than me!

Hey lao i use a early 90 carbon matrix 5 mast made in nz 1 piece same as decrepit with probably a 1000 hrs or more use in some extreem conditions its nothing fancy but the new sails wave or speed rig nice still remember energy only go,s through the mast and you being stiff and then the fin and stifF gear means less energy lost a stiff chassie gives you a more sencetive feel so you can tune your skill then sort of like a good car same princables there is some **** spelling here but i can spell **** i think!

Hi Lao
I think a good amount of twist and bag out the sail really helps with the slingshot but also be light on ya back foot and try and float off the gust.

I agree good speed across the wind will lead to a good slingshot effect off the wind but you really need to be well powered to a tad over powered to have a good amount of power off the wind.

RDM vs SDM for me there are more benefits for using RDM than SDM especially in the smaller sizes but prob depends where you sail flat or choppy to rough water and a person weight ect. by the way Lao how heavy are you.

some of the Blades I've seen rigged from other sailors lack cam spacers and battern tension so check those.

as far as Bottom end lacking on RDMs gee there wouldn't be much in it. I find RDM are easier to get going as they pump very well.
some of the guys I race and sail with are on other Brands with SDMs and I don't see they have any Advantage in bottom end.

For me its more about TOW tuning getting the best out of your gear but by all means try different things, everyone different.

Maybe it's the hat

The few times I have got over 46 knot peaks are all quite different.
eg:
Sept 27, 2009. 45-60 knots. A little bit of footage from it in the Quickly Go Mad video.
Extreme survival conditions for me. CA40, KA 20 assy fin, 2009 Koncept rigged with more downhaul and outhaul than I ever imagined I would use. For most of the run I was thinking I was going to get swatted any second. When I finally got broad enough that I could sort of hang onto the power, the chop/corrugations was extreme and the board was hammering so hard it was jarring my vision. I just ran out of bottle and backed off while I was still accelerating.

The next time on September 16th 2010 was much milder. I was on the 2009 5m Koncept with the same board and fin with 4-5kg of lead in my vest. The wind was WSW and around 30-35 with some nice, not too violent squalls, probably 35-40 knots. I was lucky enough to latch onto one of those just after a bit of a lull so the water was still fairly flat and it came on just as I got to the best angle on the course. It felt fast but nowhere near as violent as the other one and I actually felt quite comfortable. I was actually a bit surprised to see the speed. I stopped right next to Sam Parker who had also just done his fastest run and had a peak almost identical so I knew the display was right.

Both sails were rigged on RDM masts (the only option for the 4.4m) and they work just great on them, but this is very sail brand and design specific.

The common factor in almost all of my best runs is the conditions. A good gust of wind at just the right angle at just the right part of the run with the right angle where I was set up and ready for it and could manage the maximum power.
Too broad and you don't have the power, too tight and you can't use the power. Too much wind for the sail size and you can't get into the course to get the right angle without crashing out, and if you can survive that it can be waaaay too choppy to survive the high speed part. I am convinced that the best speeds for me come in less extreme winds. 35-40 knots is plenty! But everything else has to come together as well. Even the tide state can drastically effect the water state on the course.

Summing up:
-A great combination of gear that you are familiar with and is well tuned so you have full confidence in it.
-Water as flat as possible (it will never be really flat in 45+ knots conditions unless you are on Lake George )
- 30-40 knots of wind at just the right angle.

OK, Lake George is an exception:

-The water is very flat there no matter how deep you go or how far you go down wind (as long as you are over the weed).
-The SE high pressure thermal wind is very steady so you can't rely on a big gust for a big peak.
-It is actually quite easy to go too deep off the wind at LG!
-You need to have as much sail as you can handle efficiently because you aint gunna get a lucky gust.
-You really, really do need a weed speed fin!
-I am really disappointed that I missed the big day in February!

Oh, one more speed tip: use an adjustable outhaul and when you get off the wind, let it all go to the point the sail is touching the boom. (Not applicable in 45-60 knots! )

Disclaimer: This is what seems to work for me. Your milage might vary....

Thanks for starting the discussion Lao Shi, it is a very interesting read.
Combine it with watching the Sandy Point video on the Windsurfing - General forum and I'm bloody desperate to get on the water.
If only there was a whole lot more wind coming in the next few days.

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vando said...

Hi Lao
I think a good amount of twist and bag out the sail really helps with the slingshot but also be light on ya back foot and try and float off the gust.

RDM vs SDM for me there are more benefits for using RDM than SDM especially in the smaller sizes but prob depends where you sail flat or choppy to rough water and a person weight ect. by the way Lao how heavy are you.

some of the Blades I've seen rigged from other sailors lack cam spacers and battern tension so check those.

as far as Bottom end lacking on RDMs gee there wouldn't be much in it. I find RDM are easier to get going as they pump very well.
some of the guys I race and sail with are on other Brands with SDMs and I don't see they have any Advantage in bottom end.

Haven't really downhauled the 6.3 to being really loose leach as I have yet to feel overpowered on it but I will give it a try. Do bag out to touching the boom between the harness lines.

I am in the 73-75Kg range.

I have put spacers in and given the battens plenty of tension.

I don't feel that the sail is lacking in the bottom end on the RDM but I am hanging on to it after most have changed down which makes me wonder if it is flexing too much in the gusts for pure speed. Makes for great comfortable sailing and a big wind range but I am specifically discussing top end speed.

OK so the question I am still asking is how do you trim or what technique pointers to go fast 30+ across the wind?

I don't think 'flexing too much' would be holding you back, as long as the sail feels stable and still has drive. It is a good thing if the top is twisting off, power is down low where you can use it and the

One think that seem evident with RDM v's SDM is that although they bend the same in the IMCS test with 30 kg, it looks like they bend more if you add more weight to the test (or more load ont he sail), whereas the SDM's tend to resit further bend more. The RDM's have a 'softer' more 'springy' feel and the SDM's feel more 'rigid'.

This can be a good thing if the sail is designed to take advantage of this.

To your question about trimming for 30+ square to the wind:

That is a completely different animal altogether. Square speed needs a flatter foil for a start. When I did my best 1 hr, I was using a 2012 5m Koncept rigged very differently from broad speed runs. The main difference is much more outhaul! The drag part of the 'Lift to Drag' ratio becomes much more important as the apparent wind over the sail (drag) is higher and the lift in the direction you want to go is lower.

The fin needs are different too. You need a more efficient foil. More upright and larger to support a higher load. The importance of high speed resistance to cavitation which requires some compromise for pure speed fins is not present at 30-35 knots.

A wider tail board also help support that fin pressure and be more efficient at lower speeds.

Even the foot strap placement could need to be different. Off the wind you have your back leg more bent and your front leg stretched forward, virtually straight.
Square to the wind you back leg is straighter, usually just slightly bent and the front leg is similar. I can use a wider stance for square but need to pull the front foot strap back for deep off the wind speed.

Like I said, a different animal.

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mr love said...

Milked about a 42 out of that board at the PiT. I used a KA23 Assy. It has a fairly wide tail so needs a bit of fin lift to unstick it, suspect a 24 45 deg weedy may not be generating enough. If there is no weed I would try a liftier fin and see how it goes.

I have Mr Love's old board and agree, it can or does seem to stick a bit, slightly more fin seems to help.
I have only managed a 39 on mine and I'm 10K heavier ! (don't wear Lead)
Always feel like there is more in the board/sail combo but I lack the Balls to get hurt to prove it !!
(yes I know ... I'm old and soft)
love my sport and want to keep doing it.. I'm usually 3-5 Knots off the pace compared to the good speed sailors on the same day ! Want that 40+...
Live to Play another Day

Thanks, Sailquik.
I have been bagging out the sail at the start of the run. Maybe I need to get it set so that I can release just before the bear away?
S018, what fin have you found best? Are you using the straps all the way back?
What position do you have the track in? (I moved the back straps forward, have used up to a 32 goldwing but no magic fin, best speed on a 23/4 raked fin so far and have found the centre of the base at 3 on the track to be best)

My previous best was with a C3 Venom 26
the current best was at Lake George and that's weed fins only ! used a 26 choco weed speed
always run the track fully back on the speed board (haven't used it with a sail bigger than a 5.8, normally a 5.0 KA Koncept)
front straps all the way back
rear strap I like to adjust for my stance (which is a bit narrower than most)
usually come forward one or two holes on the rear strap position
Love the board but can't ride it in chop !! way too hard on the body
hope that can help