Someone mentioned the One Hour Classic results in another thread, but I think it deserves a separate topic. Foils beat the fins this year, with Jordy Vonk winning both disciplines. Jordy did 21 laps with the foil vs. 19 laps with the fin, so he was ~ 10% faster on the foil. According to www.windsurf.co.uk/rrd-one-hour-classic/, the foils "reached a peak of 33.59 knots against the 31.84 of the fin slalom and an average speed of 27.4 knots/h". That's an amazing 1 hour speed, which would rank him #32 in the GPSTC individual rankings. If you've ever surfed in Torbole in south wind, you know it is not flat! The top hour results on GPSTC that I looked at were all done at places with perfectly flat water like Lake George and Albany.

I've found in my flights (see the 30knot thread) that flat water helps with speed on a foil. but as I get more comfortable above 25kt I'm better able to handle swell and chop on the foil.
There are certain types of chop that make any speed sailing hard especially when you get multi-direction swells and rebounds off hard sea walls or boats merging.
Free sailing where you can choose a line along a swell channel often helps. But often in any kind of race you have to make a mark so less freedom to pick a path.
Before I started foiling in high winds I was regularly sailing with peak speeds of 30kts nearly every time I went out on slalom gear. But this was typically a well timed run down a speed channel.

on a foil I've only hit 30 twice!

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berowne said..
There are certain types of chop that make any speed sailing hard especially when you get multi-direction swells and rebounds off hard sea walls or boats merging.

Good point! At our local spot, the swell comes in from the south, with constraints on both sides (an island and a long seawall). In straight southerly wind directions, the swell and chop are mostly quite easy and fun. But on our frequent WSW days, the wind chop comes in at almost a right angle to the swell, which creates nasty chop. Add some boat and ferry waves to that, and a boat channel that turns almost 90 degrees, and it often turns into voodoo chop and standing waves that seem to come from all sides at the same time. Fortunately, foiling upwind towards the seawall is an easy way out.

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berowne said..
Before I started foiling in high winds I was regularly sailing with peak speeds of 30kts nearly every time I went out on slalom gear. But this was typically a well timed run down a speed channel.

I'll always remember how easy 30 knots seemed the first day I sailed on the flat water in Mandurah Bay. Speed channels or weeds usually mean you can go deep downwind on slalom and speed gear. The amazing thing about the 33 knot top foil speed (and the 27 knot hour average) is that is was done going back and forth between buoys, so it must have been at an almost right angle to the wind, where the fin is relatively slower.

app.metasail.it/(S(fenhkbdlrokzjtx54ng1psly))/ViewRecordedRace2021.aspx?idgara=15314&token=05XB
The tracker is amazing. I can only imagine the fitness to do fin for over 50km in the gusty breeze & chop, have a nice lunch, then concentrate hard for even more kms on the foil in worse chop & wash.

Foils have an advantage around buoys

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choco said..
Foils have an advantage around buoys

And across the wind board speed
And in any lulls
And on a tight reach
And on a very broad reach
And in rough water

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DarrylG said..

choco said..
Foils have an advantage around buoys

And across the wind board speed
And in any lulls
And on a tight reach
And on a very broad reach
And in rough water

I think it takes a higher skill level and requires more precise tuning to get speed foiling. On fin it's just a matter of holding on and going for it in reasonable wind and water conditions to get good speeds. Then again, maybe it'll feel the same once I've been foiling for 30yrs?

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Stretchy said..
I think it takes a higher skill level and requires more precise tuning to get speed foiling. On fin it's just a matter of holding on and going for it in reasonable wind and water conditions to get good speeds. Then again, maybe it'll feel the same once I've been foiling for 30yrs?

I don't know how fast you learned, Stretchy, but it is very easy to forget how hard it was for many of us to get to our current skill level. Every time I saw people struggle to learn how to use harness and footstraps (which happened quite often since I took 20+ multi-day windsurfing clinics), I wondered how I ever made it through this phase. Perhaps near-perfect conditions make it easier, and it certainly does not apply to everyone (Nina still thinks jibes are easy), but getting even to my mediocre level was a long, long road. On the foil, I often still feel like a beginner, after 3+ years.

But I think we'll see foiling to continue to change rapidly. At the Lake Garda 1 hour event, there were a lot of under-20 foilers in the top 10. One of the guys who figured out how to foil through the tack was a teenager. I think not having muscle memory from a long time of windsurfing can be an advantage; Nico Prien's video about trying to foil through tacks, and failing, is an example. He kept repeating the same "mistake" (putting the foot in front of the mast), even though he suspected that he should not do so. And that's just 2 or 3 years of foil tack practice burned in. I'm putting the "mistake" in quotes since I really, really would love to tack like he does in his "failed" attempts .

I agree With you Peter. My point was that it's easy to take for granted our fin sailing skills, when many of us have actually developed them (and our bad habits) over decades. I've been foiling about the same period as you and I'm a pretty slow learner and still a long way off the skill level of the good WA foilers. I think progress is often a series of steps as you reach skill barriers that you can't go past until you work out how to fix. My biggest one has been sorting out the rig transition in gybes (step gybing). Self analysis is so important.

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DarrylG said..

choco said..
Foils have an advantage around buoys

And across the wind board speed
And in any lulls
And on a tight reach
And on a very broad reach
And in rough water

Wow

foiling is foiling and fin is fin, it's 2 different things with some cross over but the sooner the comparison in terms of which is better/faster stops and everyone gets on with doing what they enjoy on the day the better off both disciplines will be. Having combined racing (PWA slalom) has been great for foil development in stronger/rougher conditions but that is all, they should stop it now and hold 2 disciplines with separate winners and an overall (combined) winner. The fact racing on a 7.7 in 20+ knots and a fin has been invalidated is detrimental to both sides

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cald said..
foiling is foiling and fin is fin, it's 2 different things with some cross over but the sooner the comparison in terms of which is better/faster stops and everyone gets on with doing what they enjoy on the day the better off both disciplines will be. Having combined racing (PWA slalom) has been great for foil development in stronger/rougher conditions but that is all, they should stop it now and hold 2 disciplines with separate winners and an overall (combined) winner. The fact racing on a 7.7 in 20+ knots and a fin has been invalidated is detrimental to both sides

I totally agree. Its evolving into 2 different disciplines. Thats why they held different classes for them at Garda.
In sailing you still have a lot of classes of boats, there isnt the idea of foiling skiffs are fastest so everyone races with those. But there is more money in sailing. Windsurfing is the poor cousin. Foil has the advantage for running competitions as if its light winds they can still race.
Hold a 1 hour event in Poole Harbour at mid to low tide and the foils would lose out carrying their boards over the shallows

I still use 8.5m for fin and foil (even when learning).
I've noticed XO sails have dropped larger 8.5m sails from their freeride/freerace range. I wonder if other brands will do the same. I hope not.
Just noticed Simmer's new 8.5m S-Max freerace fin/foil sail. Can be used with both but there must be compromises. A big compromise is foil sails look to be built very light to improve lightwind performance. But will durability suffer? I'm digressing here.

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boardsurfr said..
At the Lake Garda 1 hour event, there were a lot of under-20 foilers in the top 10. One of the guys who figured out how to foil through the tack was a teenager. I think not having muscle memory from a long time of windsurfing can be an advantage; Nico Prien's video about trying to foil through tacks, and failing, is an example. He kept repeating the same "mistake" (putting the foot in front of the mast), even though he suspected that he should not do so. And that's just 2 or 3 years of foil tack practice burned in. I'm putting the "mistake" in quotes since I really, really would love to tack like he does in his "failed" attempts .

I think you are correct. A local sailor here, Boris Shaw, was 2nd at the Youth Techno World championships last December in Oman. I think he had been doing a bit of foiling in his 'spare' time when not training on the Techno board. Now he is getting too old for Youth Techno I think he is concentrating on foiling. 2 months ago I was foiling on a 6.5m sail and he came flying past on his 8m IQ setup. He didnt touch the water at all on any gybe. A couple of weeks ago a video appeared on Facebook of him doing clean foiling though tacks. He must have been windsurfing since a very young age, his dad owns a windsurf shop, but being 17 years old must help a lot.

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cald said..
foiling is foiling and fin is fin, it's 2 different things with some cross over but the sooner the comparison in terms of which is better/faster stops and everyone gets on with doing what they enjoy on the day the better off both disciplines will be. Having combined racing (PWA slalom) has been great for foil development in stronger/rougher conditions but that is all, they should stop it now and hold 2 disciplines with separate winners and an overall (combined) winner. The fact racing on a 7.7 in 20+ knots and a fin has been invalidated is detrimental to both sides

+1
Shouldn't this post be in the foiling section?

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sboardcrazy said..

cald said..
foiling is foiling and fin is fin, it's 2 different things with some cross over but the sooner the comparison in terms of which is better/faster stops and everyone gets on with doing what they enjoy on the day the better off both disciplines will be. Having combined racing (PWA slalom) has been great for foil development in stronger/rougher conditions but that is all, they should stop it now and hold 2 disciplines with separate winners and an overall (combined) winner. The fact racing on a 7.7 in 20+ knots and a fin has been invalidated is detrimental to both sides

+1
Shouldn't this post be in the foiling section?

+2
Consider myself a weekend warrior speed sailor, light wind foiler. 2 different disciplines. Think it would be better for the development of both to separate at the pro level....

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boardsurfr said..

Stretchy said..
I think it takes a higher skill level and requires more precise tuning to get speed foiling. On fin it's just a matter of holding on and going for it in reasonable wind and water conditions to get good speeds. Then again, maybe it'll feel the same once I've been foiling for 30yrs?

I don't know how fast you learned, Stretchy, but it is very easy to forget how hard it was for many of us to get to our current skill level. Every time I saw people struggle to learn how to use harness and footstraps (which happened quite often since I took 20+ multi-day windsurfing clinics), I wondered how I ever made it through this phase. Perhaps near-perfect conditions make it easier, and it certainly does not apply to everyone (Nina still thinks jibes are easy), but getting even to my mediocre level was a long, long road. On the foil, I often still feel like a beginner, after 3+ years.

But I think we'll see foiling to continue to change rapidly. At the Lake Garda 1 hour event, there were a lot of under-20 foilers in the top 10. One of the guys who figured out how to foil through the tack was a teenager. I think not having muscle memory from a long time of windsurfing can be an advantage; Nico Prien's video about trying to foil through tacks, and failing, is an example. He kept repeating the same "mistake" (putting the foot in front of the mast), even though he suspected that he should not do so. And that's just 2 or 3 years of foil tack practice burned in. I'm putting the "mistake" in quotes since I really, really would love to tack like he does in his "failed" attempts .

I reckon windsurfing muscle memory is what's holding me back on the foil.

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boardsurfr said..
Someone mentioned the One Hour Classic results in another thread, but I think it deserves a separate topic. Foils beat the fins this year, with Jordy Vonk winning both disciplines. Jordy did 21 laps with the foil vs. 19 laps with the fin, so he was ~ 10% faster on the foil. According to www.windsurf.co.uk/rrd-one-hour-classic/, the foils "reached a peak of 33.59 knots against the 31.84 of the fin slalom and an average speed of 27.4 knots/h". That's an amazing 1 hour speed, which would rank him #32 in the GPSTC individual rankings. If you've ever surfed in Torbole in south wind, you know it is not flat! The top hour results on GPSTC that I looked at were all done at places with perfectly flat water like Lake George and Albany.

I was the someone, the windsurf.co.uk is a translation from www.4actionsport.it/water/windsurf/. Not so clear, or significant, about max speeds but impressive foil result in the medium wind Garda conditions. Missing in the boardsurfr report is that the record of the 1 hour is still in the hands of a fin, but the gap has clearly closed.

Most impressive is how fast these PWA level sailors, on fin or foil, go! I cannot imagine keeping a 27 knots average from one hour in the Garda chop! It's like they come from a different planet. For another example of the pace these people can keep one can look at Andrea Cucchi casual 500 meters 35-36 knots (on fin) in 7.5-7.8 in the same location.

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duzzi said..
Missing in the boardsurfr report is that the record of the 1 hour is still in the hands of a fin, but the gap has clearly closed.

In all fairness, I mentioned that the hour from Lake Garda would have gotten the 32nd spot on the GPSTC ranking, not the #1 spot. I also mentioned the names of some of places in Oz where many of the faster hours were done - Lake George and Albany. Anyone who's ever sailed there, or seen one of the incredible videos showing people planing on glassy water thanks to the weeds, knows that foiling at these spots is impossible. I don't know about the spots in Holland, though.

The place where they run Defi Wind would be another place to beat the 1 hour record. The races are supposedly 40 km, and the fastest times this year were 33 minutes for fin in race 1 (Albeau), and around 32.11 minutes for foil in race 2 (Nico Goyard). That would mean average speeds close to 40 knots, but I have the feeling that the actual distance is quite a bit less than the advertised 40 km. And keeping the speed up for almost twice as long may also not be trivial.

For the fins hanging on to the 1 h record, it may be a good think that the likes of Hans Kreisel and Jacques van der Hout have not taken up speedfoiling. They are quite competitive and often drive (or fly) long distances to get a decent speed session, and post on GPSTC. They might get the idea to do a downwinder on Lake Garda from Torbole to Limone in the morning, and/or the other way round when the wind turns in the afternoon. 5 km or more downwind and not having to worry about 80 other foilers doing the same back an forth runs should make it easy to get a few more knots with the foils.

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boardsurfr said..

duzzi said..
Missing in the boardsurfr report is that the record of the 1 hour is still in the hands of a fin, but the gap has clearly closed.

In all fairness, I mentioned that the hour from Lake Garda would have gotten the 32nd spot on the GPSTC ranking, not the #1 spot. I also mentioned the names of some of places in Oz where many of the faster hours were done - Lake George and Albany. Anyone who's ever sailed there, or seen one of the incredible videos showing people planing on glassy water thanks to the weeds, knows that foiling at these spots is impossible. I don't know about the spots in Holland, though.

The place where they run Defi Wind would be another place to beat the 1 hour record. The races are supposedly 40 km, and the fastest times this year were 33 minutes for fin in race 1 (Albeau), and around 32.11 minutes for foil in race 2 (Nico Goyard). That would mean average speeds close to 40 knots, but I have the feeling that the actual distance is quite a bit less than the advertised 40 km. And keeping the speed up for almost twice as long may also not be trivial.

For the fins hanging on to the 1 h record, it may be a good think that the likes of Hans Kreisel and Jacques van der Hout have not taken up speedfoiling. They are quite competitive and often drive (or fly) long distances to get a decent speed session, and post on GPSTC. They might get the idea to do a downwinder on Lake Garda from Torbole to Limone in the morning, and/or the other way round when the wind turns in the afternoon. 5 km or more downwind and not having to worry about 80 other foilers doing the same back an forth runs should make it easy to get a few more knots with the foils.

Well, I think is great how fast foils are now going in open water. But let's keep in mind that the 32-35 knots foil speed people are posting are basically the MAXIMUM speeds windfoils are currently achieving. Yes, they are now VERY competitive in open waters, in conditions where everybody is not crossing the 35-36 knots barrier. But I do not need to remind anybody that a windsurf can still go almost 20 knots faster, and that if we look at speed specific locations it is still unlikely a windsurf would loose. Take the nautical mile: the current windsurf world record is 10 knots faster than foil!

The world record hour is just over 30kts, recorded by Brad Anderson at Lake George in early March 2013. In the same session he also recorded a 2 sec of +47kts, although not while recording his hour. Wind that day was around 30kts. The lake while flat is not mirror smooth in those conditions. There have been attempts in both Australia and Europe to beat this record. Some have been close but as yet no cigar. However, I believe it's only a matter of time, before someone on a foil, in the right conditions, will beat this record.

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John340 said..
The world record hour is just over 30kts, recorded by Brad Anderson at Lake George in early March 2013. In the same session he also recorded a 2 sec of +47kts, although not while recording his hour. Wind that day was around 30kts. The lake while flat is not mirror smooth in those conditions. There have been attempts in both Australia and Europe to beat this record. Some have been close but as yet no cigar. However, I believe it's only a matter of time, before someone on a foil, in the right conditions, will beat this record.

GPSTC results and track from the world record session.

gpsteamchallenge.com.au/sailor_session/show?date=2013-03-01&team=11

www.ka72.com/Track/t/210848

My best hour on fin 26.68
My best 2s on a foil 26.72, I just need to maintain that for another 59 minutes 58 seconds to beat my Pb.
My best hour on a foil 20.12
I don't think my foil speeds will ever beat my fin speed. Maybe I might get a couple of knots closer.

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Swindy said..
I don't think my foil speeds will ever beat my fin speed. Maybe I might get a couple of knots closer.

I'm in the same boat. With the fin, I have not given up dreams of 40 knots (although that will likely require another long trip to Oz). On the foil, 25 knots seems very far away still (which makes the 27.4 knot hour on Lake Garda even more impressive to me). But the nerd in me loves to follow what's happening on the equipment level and in races, and the things we've seen in Israel last year and at multiple places this year is astonishing. Will it trickle down to recreational sailors? Maybe. Will it result in top speed records for categories that don't include jibes? Seems less likely, considering that foils don't mix with weeds or flat water, and few seem crazy enough to push foils to the limit at other 50 knot spots like West Kirby.

Boardsurfr - I saw your post on blogger.com about stuff you're selling - but can't figure out how to contact you. Can you let me know? I live on Cape Cod. Sorry for posting on this random blog, but I don't know what else to do...

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glauer53 said..
Boardsurfr - I saw your post on blogger.com about stuff you're selling - but can't figure out how to contact you. Can you let me know? I live on Cape Cod. Sorry for posting on this random blog, but I don't know what else to do...

Click on his name in the post above ( boardsurfr). That will take you to a page where you can email him..

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Swindy said..
My best hour on fin 26.68
My best 2s on a foil 26.72, I just need to maintain that for another 59 minutes 58 seconds to beat my Pb.
My best hour on a foil 20.12
I don't think my foil speeds will ever beat my fin speed. Maybe I might get a couple of knots closer.

Some very interesting comments on Croatia and fin vs foil from the Point-7 team here point-7.com/2022/07/14/pwa-crotia-point-7-gets-his-young-black-team-in-top-10/?v=7516fd43adaa

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duzzi said..

Swindy said..
My best hour on fin 26.68
My best 2s on a foil 26.72, I just need to maintain that for another 59 minutes 58 seconds to beat my Pb.
My best hour on a foil 20.12
I don't think my foil speeds will ever beat my fin speed. Maybe I might get a couple of knots closer.

Some very interesting comments on Croatia and fin vs foil from the Point-7 team here point-7.com/2022/07/14/pwa-crotia-point-7-gets-his-young-black-team-in-top-10/?v=7516fd43adaa

Awesome thank you. The mandating of one fin and one foil board idea kind of makes sense

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duzzi said..
Some very interesting comments on Croatia and fin vs foil from the Point-7 team here

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point-7.com/2022/07/14/pwa-crotia-point-7-gets-his-young-black-team-in-top-10/?v=7516fd43adaa

Great interviews and worth the read!
I assumed the 2 board 4 sail rule meant 1 small fin board and 1 foil board but seems riders can choose any board and some will obviously go 2x foil boards, 4x foil sails and no fins. Taty points out that only 1 foil mast is annoying to mount and set the rake angle accurately so swapping in a hurray won't be an option. Nor using a cady unless they relax the foil equipment limitations.

Will it kill the sport... well I do see a situation where fin slalom racers don't appear on the PWA.... but I don't think this will kill the sport.
2 boards 4 sails 1 foil set is probably about the same price as 3 boards 6 sails with fins. Maybe cheaper if you take less sail masts and booms.

No one races slalom with a dagger board anymore!