I have gotten some very promising results with a $50 sports GPS, the Canmore GP-102+. Sirf4-based, 1 Hz, .fit format files. Misses features that would be required for records, but seems more accurate than the GT-31 (no big surprise with the newer chip). I posted some initial results at boardsurfr.blogspot.com/2014/07/a-smaller-better-cheaper-gps.html

This is just a quick blurb, in case anyone else wants to test it. We cannot get any GT-31s in the US anymore, and this GPS seems a better choice than older "approved" Garmins. I have 2 more units on order for more testing.

Great article boardsurfr. just had a look at these here too www.canadagps.com/Canmore_GP-102plus.html
Hopefully one of the GPS gurus (Sailquik, Matthew et al) on here can shed some further light on their suitability and ability to have specific firmware written to suit windsurfing.

User manual (no Nm setting by the looks) http://file.canmore.com.tw/download/GP-102+%20user%20manual_English.pdf

GPS DATA LOGGER: records up to 300,000 waypoints with date, time, altitude and speed.

Bloody tiny too

How was the battery life?

Looks a nice bit of kit,good price too.

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Glynn Merrit said..
How was the battery life?

Don't quote me but I recall it mentioned 17hours in GPS mode (and much longer just in timer mode)

Great find!

Good to read your results as well!

One very nice thing about this GPS is that it actually records the Doppler speed data! That is a really good start!

Could you read the .fit files directly into GPS-Results? If not, how?

I look forward to hearing more about your testing and will see if I can get one to try.

It will be interesting to see if Canmore are open to firmware mods to get accuracy data and other useful functions. More memory would be a big priority too.

FYI

NZ Sailing have GT31s for $199 NZ a steal!!!

www.nzsailing.net

I got two more GP102+ units today, and tested them against 3 other GPS units (two GT-31s and a FlySight). Had to do this driving around instead of windsurfing since we had no wind, but the results are similar to what I saw before - the GP102+ GPS is at least as accurate as the GT-31s. It also is easily available, still being produced, and significantly cheaper than GT-31s and Garmins, and uses a newer Sirf IV chip instead of the ancient Sirf III chip in the GT-31. It is not perfect, but it does record doppler speeds to a binary file. Results and details (including how to find the data on ka72.com) on my blog at boardsurfr.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-5-gps-comparison.html

I suggest to add the Canmore G-Porter GP102+ to the list of approved GPS units for the GPS Team Challenge.

I contacted Alex Lee at Canmore a couple of months ago and they were happy to look at some modifications for us. But unfortunately I think one of my emails has got lost in the ether and there was no further progress. :-( Hopefully I have rectified things there and the Canmore units can be even more useful. Alex was talking about a new release unit (101 0r 102?) for this year as well.
I would also like to acknowledge Tony at Canadagps, who was really helpful.
Slightly off topic and my apologies to boardsurfr, but I am not sure whether this warrants a whole new topic - I have a gps logger (Qstarx BT818 XT 10hz) using a MTK chip that I happily connect via USB or Bluetooth but cannot download. If anyone has experience with MacOsx and mtk chips I would love to hear from you!! pm me on fangman Thanks guys and sorry once again for the mini hijack here.

Great to hear that Canmore is open to suggestions. Having data for HDoP, SDoP, and number of satellites would be great (although I have the suspicion that the values would pretty much always would be below thresholds, at least when windsurfing with undamaged units). Still, would be nice (but not essential) to have them.

What I'd think would be more useful would be a screen that shows the max speed larger. I wear contacts when sailing, and have a hard time reading the small numbers. Another thing that is missing is a speed genie function - it would be great to see the max speed from the last run.

I have tested one GPS unit with a 10 Hz MTK chip (not a Qstarx, though). It turned out the MTK chip does not record doppler speeds. It does records a speed that shows up as "doppler" in GPS Action Replay, and is different from the position-based speed. It's not really doppler, though. The dead giveaway was that I reached speeds above 100 and even 1000 knots several times while windsurfing. Seems the chip did not track position well, and sometimes needed to make big adjustments. Those were the biggest spikes I have ever seen. I never blogged about it, since this may have just been a bad unit. But I never tested any more MTK-based units because of the missing doppler.

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fangman said..

Slightly off topic and my apologies to boardsurfr, but I am not sure whether this warrants a whole new topic - I have a gps logger (Qstarx BT818 XT 10hz) using a MTK chip that I happily connect via USB or Bluetooth but cannot download. If anyone has experience with MacOsx and mtk chips I would love to hear from you!!

Problem solved and if anyone is contemplating one of these units (QSTarz 818) for windsurfing; my advice is don't. They're totally not suitable.

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fangman said..

fangman said..

Slightly off topic and my apologies to boardsurfr, but I am not sure whether this warrants a whole new topic - I have a gps logger (Qstarx BT818 XT 10hz) using a MTK chip that I happily connect via USB or Bluetooth but cannot download. If anyone has experience with MacOsx and mtk chips I would love to hear from you!!

Problem solved and if anyone is contemplating one of these units (QSTarz 818) for windsurfing; my advice is don't. They're totally not suitable.

One of these units.... does this mean the Canmore GP-102+ or another GPS. Sorry but I'm not sure what you are referring to.

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Mobydisc said..

fangman said..

fangman said..

Slightly off topic and my apologies to boardsurfr, but I am not sure whether this warrants a whole new topic - I have a gps logger (Qstarx BT818 XT 10hz) using a MTK chip that I happily connect via USB or Bluetooth but cannot download. If anyone has experience with MacOsx and mtk chips I would love to hear from you!!

Problem solved and if anyone is contemplating one of these units (QSTarz 818) for windsurfing; my advice is don't. They're totally not suitable.

One of these units.... does this mean the Canmore GP-102+ or another GPS. Sorry but I'm not sure what you are referring to.

Sorry for confusing the thread Mobydisc - the Canmore GP 102+ unit has great potential, I will be crash testing my own soon :-). The Qstarz BT818XT is the one not to look at - its a long and embarrassing story, but essentially its doesnt store data, its just a Bluetooth enabled 10hz receiver.

Hey Fangy don't test it to destruction before I get back, would love to see it in action.

So let me make sure I get this, can the canmore record doppler speeds and save them to binary for GPS Results? I make make this unit the recommended unit for a local speed event.

Thanks!
Kevin

Just a (sail)quick update....(apologies stealing your thunder too)

Sailquik has been working busily behind the scenes and has been in contact with Canmore regarding modifying the firmware and possibly the hardware to suit the windsurfing community's needs better. We hopefully will have some units soon to independently test their suitability. Sailquik has flagged some issues re: data format, lack of a speed genie function, battery life and data memory with some an easier fix than others. Anyway we hope to have some definitive feedback as soon as the GPS windsurfing brains trust completes their testing and analysis.

RE: GT-31
As an aside Sailquik noted that the test Boardsurfr did in the above did bring up an issue. The GT-31 should not be used on the low power setting. It destroys accuracy. Perhaps the captains can pass this on to their teams.

yeah go ahead red thumb the snagg for his update.... wtf ????

that green/red thumbs gets me... if someone disapproves a post, why not reply instead of cowardly hiding behind a red thumb ??

(I do admit I have used it a few times at the beginning when reading silly posts...but got over it )

Or else why not have a scroll down list with the names of the "thumbers"(green& red) that appears when you put the arrow/hand over it ? Could be interesting.....

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seanhogan said..
yeah go ahead red thumb the snagg for his update.... wtf ????

that green/red thumbs gets me... if someone disapproves a post, why not reply instead of cowardly hiding behind a red thumb ??

(I do admit I have used it a few times at the beginning when reading silly posts...but got over it )

Or else why not have a scroll down list with the names of the "thumbers"(green& red) that appears when you put the arrow/hand over it ? Could be interesting.....

Sean,
It's just my friendly red thumber - doesn't matter what's written, just that it's my post! I'm a big boy

I'm with Sean...
if we have to have "thumbs" lets only have positive ones
No Red thumbs
or
join the conversion !!!

Still love the site
great info..

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sausage said..
... Sailquik has flagged some issues re: data format, lack of a speed genie function, battery life and data memory ...

I've been emailing with Sailquik. Note that the issues he raises are things were improvements would be nice, but they are not absolutely necessary. Battery life is something like 14 hours, enough for a few sessions without recharging. 250,000 data points at 1 Hz means about 70 hours of sessions. For most windsurfers, that's enough to record all sessions in a 2-week vacation.

The data format means you have to use a separate program to convert to a text-based format. Not a big deal for many users, but an extra hurdle if you don't use computers much. The current format lacks satellite and accuracy data, meaning the unit is not suitable for record attempts. A firmware version that saves to SBP format would solve all these issues. Total recording time would go down a bit, but should still be >30 hours and thus sufficient.

The thing I miss most is the speed genie function. You can see your top speed for the session, but not the last run. For normal (non-record) use, I'd put speed genie on the top of my wish list. Support for knots as a unit (currently only km and miles) would be second.

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boardsurfr said..

sausage said..
... Sailquik has flagged some issues re: data format, lack of a speed genie function, battery life and data memory ...

I've been emailing with Sailquik. Note that the issues he raises are things were improvements would be nice, but they are not absolutely necessary. Battery life is something like 14 hours, enough for a few sessions without recharging. 250,000 data points at 1 Hz means about 70 hours of sessions. For most windsurfers, that's enough to record all sessions in a 2-week vacation.

The data format means you have to use a separate program to convert to a text-based format. Not a big deal for many users, but an extra hurdle if you don't use computers much. The current format lacks satellite and accuracy data, meaning the unit is not suitable for record attempts. A firmware version that saves to SBP format would solve all these issues. Total recording time would go down a bit, but should still be >30 hours and thus sufficient.

The thing I miss most is the speed genie function. You can see your top speed for the session, but not the last run. For normal (non-record) use, I'd put speed genie on the top of my wish list. Support for knots as a unit (currently only km and miles) would be second.

I can understand the desire for a new GPS to replace the GT11/GT31 that has been around since 2005 but why use obsolete technology. The Sirf IV chipset was released in 2009 and has already been updated with the Sirf V. Also using a 1hz recording rate doesn't improve the accuracy. The Sirf V is a 5hz chipset with binary output and the ability to log data to the memory on the chipset.

Roo

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Roo said..


I can understand the desire for a new GPS to replace the GT11/GT31 that has been around since 2005 but why use obsolete technology. The Sirf IV chipset was released in 2009 and has already been updated with the Sirf V. Also using a 1hz recording rate doesn't improve the accuracy. The Sirf V is a 5hz chipset with binary output and the ability to log data to the memory on the chipset.

Roo

I agree with regard the technology, but there are a few hurdles to jump first. For example, can you find a commercially available unit that is using the Sirf V Chip, second does the unit have the basic pre requisites with regard IPX rating etc, third, is it reasonably priced and finally is the manufacturer willing to make modifications for what is a relatively small market? At the moment Canmore was the only company that I could find that jumped all those hurdles and maybe in future they might even upgrade to a Sirf V chip.

Hey,
Looking for the Canmore 102+ I found this www.canadagps.com/loggerMain.html
Here I could see a lot of logger that can go for 5 or even 10hz. No information about Doppler speed.....do we really need to see the speed while riding? Cannot the Canmore 730 or 740 or the igotU watch or logger fit our needs? There is also qstarz eX1000 or the ski special.
What do you think?
Kind regards,
Plettil

Hey Plettil,
Tony at Canada GPS is really helpful. I was in contact with him about our requirements and the functionality of the units you suggest. If memory serves me correctly the Canmore 102 was the unit that ticked most of the boxes straight up and was an inexpensive unit. I wear a helmet mounted unit and don't really pay a lot of attention to the results on water and so not having a display was not a big deal for me either, but I thought the Canmore 102 came closest as being a direct replacement for the GT31. I am not saying the others are not suitable, just that the 102 is the unit I decided to try out. Also,I don't know if it applied to the models you mentioned, but some of them can update at 10 hz but still log at 1 hz. The other thing I found is that often there is a particular chipset used by lots of different GPS companies who have simply tinkered with the box it comes in. For example the Qstarz range and the iBlue range share the MTK chipset made by Transystems. And finally, the software that comes with some of the units is horrible!

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plettil said..
Hey,
Looking for the Canmore 102+ I found this www.canadagps.com/loggerMain.html
Here I could see a lot of logger that can go for 5 or even 10hz. No information about Doppler speed.....do we really need to see the speed while riding? Cannot the Canmore 730 or 740 or the igotU watch or logger fit our needs? There is also qstarz eX1000 or the ski special.
What do you think?
Kind regards,
Plettil

Its quite difficult to keep up with all the various loggers on the market. They seem to change all the time. But I have not seen any stand alone logger yet that can record Doppler speed data at better than 1hz. A number of UBlox based loggers and dongles can transmit 4, 5 and/or 10 hz data in the format we need, but they can't record it to internal memory.

Purely for data recording, a data logger with 5 or 10hz recording of the UBlox UBX binary data would be great. You can always use a GT-11/31 as well for the Genie functions or one of many GPS that will tell you speed and max speed (like the Canmore 102+).

If anyone comes across such a device, please let us know.

I did a bit of checking and confirmed that at least some versions of the Sitf4 GPS chip are capable of 5hz output.

This means that existing GPS loggers that otherwise may suit our needs like the Canmore 102+, may be able to updated for 5hz recording.

I vaguely recall the more recent SiRFStar chipsets are no longer outputting the SDOP values, which is why the U-Blox chip sets came into view. I'll have to check when I'm back from vacation.

I see Boardsurfr instructions for getting the data out of the Canmore G-Porter 102+ involves converting to GPX but I think converting from Sirf Binary to GPX files loses the last decimal of accuracy if my memory serves me correctly.

Yoyo, GPSBabel can read .fit files and then convert to .bin (Navitel binary track) which if I understand correctly maintains the accuracy and Doppler data. Happy to stand corrected tho

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dBA said..
I vaguely recall the more recent SiRFStar chipsets are no longer outputting the SDOP values, which is why the U-Blox chip sets came into view. I'll have to check when I'm back from vacation.

I had a look at the sirf binary protocol manual (http://www.usglobalsat.com/downloads/SiRF_Binary_Protocol.pdf) and I could not see any reference to SDOP. But then being a newcomber to this area, I then decided to research what SDOP actually stands for and it's significance. I found a good description here (en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilution_of_precision_(GPS) but no mention of SDOP. So can someone please tell me what it stands for and what it's significance is?

bioresonant.com/dl/dl.htm?name=SDOP.pdf

Basically a similar accuracy value as the HDOP, but then specifically for the Doppler based speed calculations. After scanning the PDF quickly I noticed that Tom says it's a new feature in the SiRFStar 3 chips, but I couldn't find it either in the binary protocol for the latest chip sets. It used to be a parameter in the MSG41 something which our SBN files consist of. Hope this helps...