Nicely said Dezza

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Dezza said..

If you want to post your speed sailing results with an unofficial device you can do that on gps-speedsurfing, the site used by the European speedsailers. Why don't you sign up for that? You have to pay a small subscription to do so. It's worth noting though all of the competitions they run via that site all need to be posted with the same approved devices as gpstc, but you can still post for social interest with garmins etc.

GPS Speedsurfing has no subscription and is free to use.

Yes you're able to post with a non approved device but all files uploaded to GP3S are checked before you can post your session. GPS Speedsurfing has Manfred Fuchs his software built into the site. The moment you upload your track it's automatically verified by the GPS Speed software and all spikes are removed. You will not see spikes from non-approved devices as shown in the first post.

Besides that all sessions posted with non-approved devices are clearly marked in the daily ranking. A session posted with an approved device has a green GPS logo whilst a session with a non-approved device has a yellow GPS logo.

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Dezza said..
Hey guys most of us posting on gpstc understand all the issues with non-approved devices, it's been very well documented over the last couple of years. Adrian not sure why you continue to battle away on here, gpstc is run by volunteers who give their time, we don't really need any more arguing and debating clever points. It's been said already the person who set up Gpstc website doesn't have time to make changes to it. There is no one putting their hand up to collect subscriptions and organise a software developer to do it.

If you want to post your speed sailing results with an unofficial device you can do that on gps-speedsurfing, the site used by the European speedsailers. Why don't you sign up for that? You have to pay a small subscription to do so. It's worth noting though all of the competitions they run via that site all need to be posted with the same approved devices as gpstc, but you can still post for social interest with garmins etc.

Time to just leave it and have fun windsurfing rather than post stuff on seabreeze.

Hey Dezza,

I hear you. The reason I come up is simply because there was a plan to make changes and as far as I know the detail of the changes was never released. Also as far as I know, the plan to make changes has not been revoked. If the changes are nolonger being made, it would be good to know this.

A poll done some time ago suggested a two tier system was desired by a significant majority. If it is too much effort for the developer to implement or the significant minority hold all the cards and choose not to want to make the GPSTC better for the majority, so be it.

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sailquik said..
Thought it might help if we post up some examples of GPS posts that are seriously erroneous and, of course, from 'non GPSTC approved' GPS's.

Here is the latest:

www.ka72.com/Track/t/435170

It is assumed this is a windsurfer, but it may not be. In any case, even if it was a kite or a foiler, doing thise speeds on a beam reach in open water is extremely unlikely, let alone 49 knots!

And of course, there is no way to validate anything.

A simple filter would take care of that. If these numbers came up on an approved device and the error estimate value was good would they be accepted as truth ?

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vosadrian said..
>>>>>
A poll done some time ago suggested a two tier system was desired by a significant majority. If it is too much effort for the developer to implement or the significant minority hold all the cards and choose not to want to make the GPSTC better for the majority, so be it.

It would be nice to know just how representative that poll was. I have a feeling it mostly sampled the interested, those just comfortable with the way things are wouldn't have bothered. Most of the people I talk to are in this category.
And as far as I know, the changes are still in the pipeline, it's just a very slow pipeline! And don't ask me what the changes are, I'm that interested I've forgotten.

The GPSTC was set up as a team challenge, individual scores are a side benefit. AS GP3S already looks after individual rankings/scores, it wasn't considered necessary to cater to them.

Hi Adrian, another suggestion if you're keen on some social GPS windsurfing, the NSW GPS series would be good to try, you can post with a Garmin to KA72 for that, dates for the next round are on the NSW folder, they're great fun

Decripit,

That poll may not have been completely representitive.... but it was overwhelmingly in support of a multi-tier system. You can call the result bullocks if you like... perhaps only a certain type of user voted. But even if 5 times the number people voted against multi tier, it would be close to even. You can't deny there is a significant amount of users who want multi-tier.

Dezza, the initial reason for my frustration is that I have a device I have used for many years since I started on the GPSTC (Garmin Geko). I was then advised I could no-longer use this device at a time when the approved replacement options were utter crap. People complaining about them all over the place. My Geko worked without an issue for a decade but I was nolonger allowed to use it in GPSTC. I did not care enough about my scores counting to anything competitive to want to buy a defective device when I had multiple devices that did the job to my satisfaction. I did want to continue to monitor my progress and be part of a team. If I found the loss of my data from team results had a significant effect on team performance I was willing to make a change to that but I was not expecting this to be the case.

Last summer I posted a few sessions using a garmin device where I reduced all speeds by a factor of 10 so they would not effect team results and stating that this was the case. I got an email from the GPSTC telling me not to do so. I could post in a comment where my progress could not be monitored. If I was the only team member to post a session on a day could I even do that? This really annoyed me. It was clear to me that the GPSTC were just trying to get nasty about it. I had made efforts to ensure my data did not cause any problems for anyone, and someone from GPSTC decided to take issue with it for a bit of fun.

So these days I hold hope that the GPSTC will get it right, but if not, I am just using Strava to track my progress and that is good enough for me. And while Sailquik and his ilk start random posts to discredit non-approved devices, I will come up here to argue about it. I did not start this thread.....

Join GPS3 as suggested and you can post to your heart's content.

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decrepit said..

vosadrian said..
>>>>>
A poll done some time ago suggested a two tier system was desired by a significant majority. If it is too much effort for the developer to implement or the significant minority hold all the cards and choose not to want to make the GPSTC better for the majority, so be it.

It would be nice to know just how representative that poll was. I have a feeling it mostly sampled the interested, those just comfortable with the way things are wouldn't have bothered. Most of the people I talk to are in this category.
And as far as I know, the changes are still in the pipeline, it's just a very slow pipeline! And don't ask me what the changes are, I'm that interested I've forgotten.

The GPSTC was set up as a team challenge, individual scores are a side benefit. AS GP3S already looks after individual rankings/scores, it wasn't considered necessary to cater to them.

"Most of the people I talk to are in this category."
I could say the same! That's why polls/counts were invented!? To get something approaching actual numbers. Not just personal estimates.

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Simon100 said..
A simple filter would take care of that. If these numbers came up on an approved device and the error estimate value was good would they be accepted as truth ?

OK. So why didn,t the KA72 filters "take care of that"

Of course this one is obvious to an educated observer. Many errors are not.

In all the the years I have been testing and studying GPS data, I have never seen anything remotely like this level of error from an approved SDOP device. Pre Doppler and SDOP, we did see such errors quite regularly. Checking and verifying for 'spikes' and errors was a ongoing, timeconsuming and sometimes onerous task. There were no online analysis website programs and all sailors had their own analysis software. The avent of Doppler recording and then SDOP verification data was a huge and welcome breakthrough. Those who were involved back then will surely agree.

'.... truth'? Not always. There are other factors to take account of, and this has happened. The approved devices have other types of useful data as well for verification. But by far the most powerful verification is wearing 2 devices side by side.

I remember going through tracks back in the day. Slow and painful process, especially when people are keen for a quick answer on how fast they went. Much better now

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kato said..
I remember going through tracks back in the day. Slow and painful process, especially when people are keen for a quick answer on how fast they went. Much better now

And that is why we eventually phased out the Garmin Geko, Foretrex 201 etc. They were all trackpoint (positional) only devices and, although they were the best we had in the very early days 2004 -2006, they just dont cut it in todays world. Like comparing a T model Ford with a current Ford Ranger/BMW/Merceedees,/VW/Camry/ ................(fill in the blank with your favourite model). Many, if not most, of the non approved devices are still stuck at that level of technology for our purposes.

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sailquik said..

kato said..
I remember going through tracks back in the day. Slow and painful process, especially when people are keen for a quick answer on how fast they went. Much better now

And that is why we eventually phased out the Garmin Geko, Foretrex 201 etc. They were all trackpoint (positional) only devices and, although they were the best we had in the very early days 2004 -2006, they just dont cut it in todays world. Like comparing a T model Ford with a current Ford Ranger/BMW/Merceedees,/VW/Camry/ ................(fill in the blank with your favourite model). Many, if not most, of the non approved devices are still stuck at that level of technology for our purposes.

What is it Andrew, no wind, ego, lost your meds, Alzheimer's????

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AUS4 said..

sailquik said..

kato said..
I remember going through tracks back in the day. Slow and painful process, especially when people are keen for a quick answer on how fast they went. Much better now

And that is why we eventually phased out the Garmin Geko, Foretrex 201 etc. They were all trackpoint (positional) only devices and, although they were the best we had in the very early days 2004 -2006, they just dont cut it in todays world. Like comparing a T model Ford with a current Ford Ranger/BMW/Merceedees,/VW/Camry/ ................(fill in the blank with your favourite model). Many, if not most, of the non approved devices are still stuck at that level of technology for our purposes.

What is it Andrew, no wind, ego, lost your meds, Alzheimer's????

What is it with you Rick? On the piss again?

Let's go sailing-windsurfing-kiting-foiling-swimming-mountain biking.

Hi Sailquik
Back to the original sample file that you posted as an example of an error do we even no that it was error the guys could have been riding a jet ski for all we know and posted it for fun. Not really an example unless you know what the source was.
I guess my point is there is always talk of numerous examples but you don't see that many on GPTC because people know that it needs to be as accurate as possible. I have quite a few examples where when using the crap GW60 approved device and I have received speeds that are clearly not right but would never post them as they are clearly wrong but they are on KA 72 because I don't know they are wrong until I post the result.
The main issue is still what it has always been that we don't have easily accessible options for posting that are reliable.
Juliens motion devices are great but not that easy to get and unless you get the one with the screen don't provide feedback on water.
I think all of the people on GPSTC appreciate and value all of the work that NEBS has put in over the years and also the fact that it is out there and available.
Yes of course we can all go and post on GPSS for individual scores but I think that is the point most people still want the team aspect and interaction that is offered by GPSTC.
I have a few devices but only one that is approved and my GW60 has no band is probably getting to be to old and I would not buy another at the price they are with the problems it has so if it stops I will no longer be able to post to GPSTC until I can source something else.
We can all call each other names and go on about accuracy for ever but without changes we will end up in a situation where many team members will just not be able to post as no device is available.
Danny

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sailquik said..

AUS4 said..

sailquik said..

kato said..
I remember going through tracks back in the day. Slow and painful process, especially when people are keen for a quick answer on how fast they went. Much better now

And that is why we eventually phased out the Garmin Geko, Foretrex 201 etc. They were all trackpoint (positional) only devices and, although they were the best we had in the very early days 2004 -2006, they just dont cut it in todays world. Like comparing a T model Ford with a current Ford Ranger/BMW/Merceedees,/VW/Camry/ ................(fill in the blank with your favourite model). Many, if not most, of the non approved devices are still stuck at that level of technology for our purposes.

What is it Andrew, no wind, ego, lost your meds, Alzheimer's????

What is it with you Rick? On the piss again?

Great to see these two ancient speedsters mellowing with age.

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Bugs74 said..
Hi Sailquik
Back to the original sample file that you posted as an example of an error do we even no that it was error the guys could have been riding a jet ski for all we know and posted it for fun. Not really an example unless you know what the source was.

Hi Danny. Yes, I thought I said that in the OP. But it was posted under windsurfing, and the file is downloadable. So as far as I am concerned, it is an excellent example.

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Bugs74 said..
I guess my point is there is always talk of numerous examples but you don't see that many on GPTC because people know that it needs to be as accurate as possible. I have quite a few examples where when using the crap GW60 approved device and I have received speeds that are clearly not right but would never post them as they are clearly wrong but they are on KA 72 because I don't know they are wrong until I post the result.

Well actually, quite a few do turn up on GPSTC, and usually, they are quickly followed up and disappear or are corrected. I know this because many are referred to me for second opinion analysis by the Admin team. Of course, most people would not notice it. And almost always, that analysis and verification is pretty straightforward using the verification data that the approved GPS's record. Yes, even the ones from the good old GW-60.

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Bugs74 said..
The main issue is still what it has always been that we don't have easily accessible options for posting that are reliable.
Juliens motion devices are great but not that easy to get and unless you get the one with the screen don't provide feedback on water.

The simple logger is very available now, Julien has currently dozens in stock just waiting for buyers. Admittedly, this has not always been the case. But for under $200 how can you go wrong? I belive the LCD motions are shipping again now.
And feedback on the water can be achieved with a great variety of devices. (It does not have to have the same level of accuracy or reliability) I use a $15 Android phone with a free program that actually 'talks' to me, telling me my current speed every second and announcing my 'last run' when I slow down to gybe. The various 'GPS sports watches' can also meet this need very well. There is a whole thread on just such a strategy right here on SB.
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Gps/Garmin-GPSTC-Datafield-to-complement-the-Motion-Simple-Logger

Or, If you are talking about analysis programs to check your data, analyse your performances and then post to GPSTC, GPS-Speedreader, by Boardsurfr, is pretty much state of the art, and both easy and free to use.

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Bugs74 said..
I think all of the people on GPSTC appreciate and value all of the work that NEBS has put in over the years and also the fact that it is out there and available.
Yes of course we can all go and post on GPSS for individual scores but I think that is the point most people still want the team aspect and interaction that is offered by GPSTC.

Yes, I would hope so, and I most certainly agree.

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Bugs74 said..
I have a few devices but only one that is approved and my GW60 has no band is probably getting to be to old and I would not buy another at the price they are with the problems it has so if it stops I will no longer be able to post to GPSTC until I can source something else.
We can all call each other names and go on about accuracy for ever but without changes we will end up in a situation where many team members will just not be able to post as no device is available.
Danny

I completely understand your reluctance to get another GW-60. But as pointed out, you currently have more approved devices options (3, plus home made) than ever before since we went 'Doppler'.
Keep positive and enjoy it.
PS, I have an order coming soon from Motion. I can add you into it if you PM me.
Andrew.