After lots of experimentation with fins and posts on here, I have come to the conclusion that my upwind technique is lacking. Today the tide was moving in my favour and I was well powered up on my 7.1 and medium board with my brand new BP weedspeed 40cm and I still struggled to make ground up wind. I had a good session and actually improved my nautical mile and 30min speed, but I steadily lost ground. The only way I could back to the launch was to ride my board with my back foot out of the strap and railing the board to windward like I sail my freestyle board. I was able to make it back to the launch sailing like that in last two reaches

Upwind sailing is a bit of a black art in my experience and weed fins do not help. The best way to improve upwind skill is by doing it!! Constantly sail slightly upwind and get a feel for the VMG of your setup on the day and in the conditions. Tuning your gear to improve upwind performance, altering your technique will aid in this regard. Once you have gained some upwind ground reward yourself with a bear-away! Lots of YouTube tips out there too.

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thedoor said..
After lots of experimentation with fins and posts on here, I have come to the conclusion that my upwind technique is lacking. Today the tide was moving in my favour and I was well powered up on my 7.1 and medium board with my brand new BP weedspeed 40cm and I still struggled to make ground up wind. I had a good session and actually improved my nautical mile and 30min speed, but I steadily lost ground. The only way I could back to the launch was to ride my board with my back foot out of the strap and railing the board to windward like I sail my freestyle board. I was able to make it back to the launch sailing like that in last two reaches

It might just depend on the board size? And fin of course. With my AV 88 60 wide 6.0 + Phoenix 31 upwind is good, 33 better. Same upwind performance with my old Exocet slalom 62 wide, that I think is the same size of your medium slalom? But put me on my old Isonic 111x69, and even more so on a just inherited Patrik Slalom 122, 77 wide, and I simply cruise upwind. With just a 40 fin the amount of ground I gain is kind of stunning compared to the smaller slalom boards.

Lovely board by the way, the Patrik, definitely, and unfortunately for my foiling career, a foil killer in the Bay Area.

Rip Foiling for Duzzi :) But small to medium guys wiling to ride big gear living in moderately windy areas can do fine without foiling.

I was on 116L 72cm wide goya proton and the black project weed speed fin a bloody big one. Certainly much easier to point with a pointer.

weed fins are notorious to be bad to go upwind, I can do ok with strong winds and small sails, but its a lot harder otherwise. I found that with larger sails and more marginal winds holding the uphaul rope with the front hand allows the rig to be more powerful and can do a better angle. Guys that can hold a big race sail usually are the ones that are best at going upwind

Any excuse for a LG video hey George
Agree with you, may also add mast back from position used with pointer

sail down wind instead

If you have adjustable harness lines, you can also try shortening them when pointing.

OK will mess with the harness lines and the uphaul technique when using one.

I am wondering why powersloshin even has an uphaul at lake george though

For reference, here are tracks and polar plots for a couple of sessions on similar gear. The first one is on a 99 l slalom board with a BP WeedSpeed 38 and a 7.0 Racing Blade:


Upwind angles were about 30 degrees. The wind direction was favorable this day, making it easy to get to the speed spot on the top right. Wind was 18 mph gusting 28 (according to the iWindsurf meter).
Second session is on an 89 l slalom board with the same sail, but with a 23 cm Tectonics Speed Demon that has a Fangy-style fillet added to it:

Same speed spot, but a more northerly wind direction meant I had to sail a mile upwind, so I pinched harder. Top upwind angles were about 5-10 degrees better, despite the smaller fin and more chop.

The big difference between the two pictures? A lot more wind in the second session, with mid-20 mph averages gusting 36 (same wind meter). Being really well powered makes going upwind a lot easier. If I'm just comfortably powered, enough to plane most of the time in steady winds, going upwind with a weed or delta fin becomes a lot harder, and angles are a lot smaller. On the day in the lower picture, I could have easily sailed back and forth on a 5.6, but getting a mile upwind would have been hard to impossible. Typically, I'd probably be on a 6.3 in mid-20s, but that day, the wind picked up after we had rigged.

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thedoor said..
I am wondering why powersloshin even has an uphaul at lake george though

Why?... to go upwind of course

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DavMen said..

thedoor said..
I am wondering why powersloshin even has an uphaul at lake george though

Why?... to go upwind of course

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waricle said..

super good thanks

This guy is good..
Ride along sessions with Cookie

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thedoor said..
After lots of experimentation with fins and posts on here, I have come to the conclusion that my upwind technique is lacking. Today the tide was moving in my favour and I was well powered up on my 7.1 and medium board with my brand new BP weedspeed 40cm and I still struggled to make ground up wind. I had a good session and actually improved my nautical mile and 30min speed, but I steadily lost ground. The only way I could back to the launch was to ride my board with my back foot out of the strap and railing the board to windward like I sail my freestyle board. I was able to make it back to the launch sailing like that in last two reaches

Hi,
maybe the sail was simply too small. Whenever I am underpowered, I struggle to go upwind. When I am really powered up, I can go quite extreme angles against the wind with the same board and fin.
Important is also to first go downwind a bit, get some speed and then head upwind.
I wouldn't add too much pressure on the windward rail. While this technique of pushing the windward rail into the water like a keel helps a lot when slogging upwind, when planing it more slows you down and creates resistance when you actually need power. I'd try yo keep the board flat or even lift the heels to lift the windward rail, and close the gap to go more upwind.
When going upwind, I shift my body forward, and automatically my front leg bends a bit, while the rear leg is straight. Quite the opposite stance of going downwind.

I see already that we should do an upwind challenge in our next session. And later race home on a downwind course :-)

best
mariachi76

Mast base should go back as far as possible.
weed-fins bring the Centre of lateral resistance aft so to balance that you need to bring the CoE (centre of effort)aft as well.

Weed fin update:

BP Weedspeed 40, 72cm wide board and 7.8m. Well powered. I started out sailing upwind as far as I could using the back foot out with board railed to windward and I was able to make good ground and not one spinout. Took about 40 min to get upwind, I was hoping to spend 30 min coming back downwind to try and improve my 30min average, but I ended up back downwind in about 10-15 min. When I tried to maintain a course closer to a beam reach, I struggled with spinning out.....so I ended up sailing a much broader course.

A smaller sail rigged a bit fuller with your medium board should help you a lot.

Maybe a 6.4m. I go upwind best with my 5.6 and 110.

6.4 is good but i really struggle with my 7m on my 110 unless i use my 40cm pointer carbon fin.

Using a sliding hook can help a lot too as it will allow you to get or more of your upper body weight forward.

Upper body weight forward helps to keep the mast as vertical as possible which is a big key for me.

Dig your back foot toes in hard till the windward rail lifts and the more the board powers up the harder you can push upwind.

I think the lighter guys tend to go upwind higher unless the wind is consistent.

Nobody has mentioned outhaul yet. If you have enough power to keep planing, tighten the outhaul to reduce the entry angle at front of sail. Too much belly will give poor pointing ability.

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thedoor said..
Weed fin update:

BP Weedspeed 40, 72cm wide board and 7.8m. Well powered. I started out sailing upwind as far as I could using the back foot out with board railed to windward and I was able to make good ground and not one spinout. Took about 40 min to get upwind, I was hoping to spend 30 min coming back downwind to try and improve my 30min average, but I ended up back downwind in about 10-15 min. When I tried to maintain a course closer to a beam reach, I struggled with spinning out.....so I ended up sailing a much broader course.

Knowing that spot, I think you did an amazing job in going upwind. Kudos to the patience needed for that - as soon as I am 300ft upwind, the desire for a downwind speed run keeps growing and growing - and I give in :-). I never made it that far upwind!

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Jetlag said..
Nobody has mentioned outhaul yet. If you have enough power to keep planing, tighten the outhaul to reduce the entry angle at front of sail. Too much belly will give poor pointing ability.

I do tend to tighten the outhaul for upwind

There are two techniques for going upwind. The first is as you described, i.e slogging with your windward rail down.

The better way is to use speed. Bear away to gain speed and lift from your fin. Raise your front heel to lift your windward rail. Use gusts to steer up wind, ease back in lulls. Try and look around your mast, this helps take weight of your back leg. Holding onto your uphaul like Power sloshing suggested helps with looking round the front of the mast. When really powered up in a gust you can steer upwind an additional 10 degrees or so. But ease up in lulls to maintain speed and lift. So it's not a straight path, you climb and ease away in the gusts and lulls. Think about your VMG.

Well said, you explained it perfectly..

A bigger board with a smaller than recommended sail can really help.

Using too big a sail for your board and no amount of technique etc is going to get you upwind.

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John340 said..
There are two techniques for going upwind. The first is as you described, i.e slogging with your windward rail down.

The better way is to use speed. Bear away to gain speed and lift from your fin. Raise your front heel to lift your windward rail. Use gusts to steer up wind, ease back in lulls. Try and look around your mast, this helps take weight of your back leg. Holding onto your uphaul like Power sloshing suggested helps with looking round the front of the mast. When really powered up in a gust you can steer upwind an additional 10 degrees or so. But ease up in lulls to maintain speed and lift. So it's not a straight path, you climb and ease away in the gusts and lulls. Think about your VMG.

Understood. As soon as I try the better way on any of my weed fins I spin out, that second day I was even spinning out when I tried to beam reach, so clearly I suck at something. My technique with windward rail down and back foot out may not be planing but I am dong 15+ knots.

Didn't really consider the sail being too big as a possibility

If you spin out with a weed fin try and move the mast foot forward a little, and be light on the back foot. Also harness lines further back might help

My finger points at the fin. There were some terrible weed fins around.
Just check the flex first off, put it over your knee and try to bend it. If you can flex it more than 5mm throw it away, or put a couple of layers of carbon over it to stiffen it up.
Back in the day, before people took weedys seriously, standard pointers were just reboxed at 45deg. this reduces the foil to thickness ratio by 20%, meaning they won't tolerate as high an angle of attack, so load them up at low speed and they spin out. If they have any flex, that also reduces their lift, increasing angle of attack.
A good weedy, (and there are several now) is designed as a weedy, it's stiff and has a foil to thickness ratio over 8% I make mine at 9%.

A 28cm Fangy Fin fires upwind
And will not spin out , no matter how big a sail.

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decrepit said..
My finger points at the fin. There were some terrible weed fins around.
Just check the flex first off, put it over your knee and try to bend it. If you can flex it more than 5mm throw it away, or put a couple of layers of carbon over it to stiffen it up.
Back in the day, before people took weedys seriously, standard pointers were just reboxed at 45deg. this reduces the foil to thickness ratio by 20%, meaning they won't tolerate as high an angle of attack, so load them up at low speed and they spin out. If they have any flex, that also reduces their lift, increasing angle of attack.
A good weedy, (and there are several now) is designed as a weedy, it's stiff and has a foil to thickness ratio over 8% I make mine at 9%.

The Black Project is a good 40 degree weed fin, on par with the Tribal weed speed. The 40 is about 32cm deep and might be marginal with the 7.8 and 72 wide board, but should be good with a 7.0.

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decrepit said..
My finger points at the fin. There were some terrible weed fins around.
Just check the flex first off, put it over your knee and try to bend it. If you can flex it more than 5mm throw it away, or put a couple of layers of carbon over it to stiffen it up.
Back in the day, before people took weedys seriously, standard pointers were just reboxed at 45deg. this reduces the foil to thickness ratio by 20%, meaning they won't tolerate as high an angle of attack, so load them up at low speed and they spin out. If they have any flex, that also reduces their lift, increasing angle of attack.
A good weedy, (and there are several now) is designed as a weedy, it's stiff and has a foil to thickness ratio over 8% I make mine at 9%.

The Black Project Weed fins are quite good, I have almost every size (although they are now ~ 8 years old). I find that the faster you go, the better they hold. When barely powered, they are not so great. For marginal conditions, Tectonic Weed Demons have more grip. However, the Tectonics are a bit more prone to spinout if the fin is too small for gear/skill/conditions, and I sometimes have had spinouts in speed runs that I never have with Black Project weedies. Nowadays, I tend to pick the Tectonics for the medium and large gear, or when the weed is heavy or sticky (Hatteras). On smaller gear, I'll use the Black Project "28" to "34" when possible, and the Tectonics Speed Demon when it's really shallow or the weeds are bad.