My top 2 sec PB is 34.62knts done on a 4.9m Neil Pryde Zen which is a crossover freeride/wave RAF sail.

My second best 2 sec is 32.71knts on a 6.7m Neil Pryde RS Slalom. Board and fin were identical.

So that's almost 2 knts slower on a cambered sail than non-cambered RAF sail.

Was it just a lucky gust on the NP Zen? Was it the fact that the Zen was smaller so created less drag? Do race sails really deliver that much more performance than non-race sails?

id sail the sail size had some part in it but were the conditions the same .. was the water flatter on the 4.9 zen?

Hey AndyRogan,

Did you compare the sails on the same day, did you have them both rigged and ready to change then over on the beach.
The gap from 4.9 to 6.7 is quiet large you would expect the 6.7 to give you the edge I guess.

Kind Regards
Walt

Yes, good point Walt. Sorry, should have mentioned that. Those sails were on different days with different wind strengths.

Sailed NP Zen in 30-40knts W.

Sailed the NP RSS in 20-30knts W.

Hey AndyRogan

Wow those wind speeds would be challenging and I suppose the NP RSS in the 30-40knts would be very difficult to hold down, so in that wind speed the 4.9 would be quicker because you would be able to hold it down for a longer period and able to get better speed the 6.7 you would only be able to get small burst and in-between just managing to keep upright.

Good effort to sail in the 30+knts.

Kind regards
Walt

I recently sailed in 15 - 18 knots with a 5.7 Firefly (RAF) and a 5.7 Koncept. (Not on the same day but same location and similar wind strengths) Although most of my best times have been on the Koncept, in these underpowered conditions the RAF sailgave better speeds. Can't say why. The cambered sail when powered up will give you better speed for size, but more especially better acceleration, upwind and downwind performance.

I'd say your PB on the RAF sail was more due to differences in wind strength than sail size. Prior to purchasing my Koncept my best times were on a 4.7 Storm (RAF) which I use in the windiest conditions.

From what I've seen and experienced, the sail is a very small part of the speed equation.

Fin, board width and water state play a much larger role imo, when you're talking about variables you can change.

A cambered sail is nice to have, although I have found that if I expend lots of energy waterstarting it then it will make me slower than a RAF sail as it tires me out quickly.

Of course all the top guys use fully cammed sails which has to say something about whether or not they are useful. Maybe they don't fall in as often as I do

To answer your question Nicko, the water state was probably about as flat on both occasions.

Very interesting comments all, and great to hear the direct comparison between sails of the same size Windxtasy...

I've gone from having cambered sails to RAF sails. The speeds I've achieved on both have been comparable. For example on my Tabou Rocket 140 I seem to top out at about 25 knots with the following sails. North Warp 7.8m, Loft 02 7.5m, Neil Pryde RS6 7.2m and Loft 02 6.6m.

So in my experience there probably isn't that much difference for a sailor at my level of skill, fitness and abilities.

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AndyRogan said...

To answer your question Nicko, the water state was probably about as flat on both occasions.

youv'e convinced me andy im tradeing in all my rs prides in for those zens
a guy borrowed my rs 4/6 in a 30knt + n/east the other day, he had one run and jumped back on to his 4/5 areotech wave now i know why

Keep in mind there can be quite a difference in the performance of one RAF sail compared to another.

I have a couple of older NP Sabers which I love cause they're stable and grunty yet they have a good top end. I find that with these sails I can use a negative outhaul, which helps on the downwind runs, but they still stay composed in the gusts.

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Mobydisc said...


So in my experience there probably isn't that much difference for a sailor at my level of skill, fitness and abilities.

maybe your rite karl but how does your non cambered sails handle the bullets, where i sail you have to sail overpowerd most of the time, if you see the bullets with a camed sail you just sail up wind and you dont notice them, with non camed sails you get slammed , well i guess thats why we have more than one sail
"edit "7.8 in 25knts karl thats not bad

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Windxtasy said...

in these underpowered conditions the RAF sailgave better speeds. Can't say why. The cambered sail when powered up will give you better speed for size, but more especially better acceleration, upwind and downwind performance.

i was out sailing the other day in a steady n/e and sloppy chop, and getting high 30's ,towards the end of the day the wind shifted slightly nn/e, that smoothed out the chop and if anything glassed of a bit and started to get high 31's
that was the same day, same board ,and same sail , so i don't think you can compare on different days , its like sailing the runway with the same strength wind, sail and board, and the wind changes slightly too the nn/e , so earlier you were on your cambered sail getting 30's then changed to your RAF, same size and same wind strength but less chop and now your getting high 31's,
as for me I'm not the greatest sailor so i stick to the shallows, if i blow a jibe i can stand up so i don't have the water starting problem

Boards (issue269) just did this exact test with 2 point seven sails the ACX - 7 batten no cam and the ACK - 7 batten 3 cam. Sail dimensions are almost identical for both sails. No cam sail was 650g lighter than the 3 cam

The scoring was

Rigging - Raf
Early planing - Raf
Manouverability - Raf
Top end stability - Cam
Speed underpowered - Raf
Speed comfortably powered - Tied
Speed overpowered - Tied
Price - raf

The verdict was for the raf sail. The cambered sail I qoute " had the edge for the speed merchants at the very top end, but it was surprising how much wind it actually needed to satrt pulling ahead of the raf sail. In fact to have any chance of competing you'd be wise to opt for a sal that's at leas 0.5m bigger if it's got cambers, and with that comes extra weight, cost and hassle."

Hard to ignore.......

i would imagine that a same size RAF sail would be slower than the equivalent cammed jobbie; the cams allow the designers to dictate a very precise and efficient foil entry, which is not *always* evident on RAFs (because the RAF relies on wind to form the foil and wind is variable). while a RAF operating in good consistent winds might be comparable, as people state above - the speed records are set on cammed sails.

but at the end of the day, a quiet sailor is a fast sailor. while on paper it might not add up, it's entirely subjective; if you feel more comfortable on the cross-over/wave sail, that allows you to maintain trim and really translate the power into speed. who can argue with the numbers?

[edit: i took a long time to write this and so I submitted this before seeing Dam's post above. ouch to my opening comment! interesting indeed! what i take out of that is when it comes to speed - a cammed sail gives you top end stability which allows you to take out a bigger sail and therefore go faster]

IMHO cammed sails are faster because
1. Being so stable you can carry a bigger sail size givng more power.

2. Being so stable you can sail comforatably very powered up because the sail is not moving around so much allowing you to sail very efficiently.

3. Being comfortable you can sail faster because your not fighting to keep the sail locked down.

Across the wind in just powered up conditons there is probably not much difference but since we are talking about trying to go fast and that means saling broad.

Sailing very broad doing 30knts in 25knts of wind you want a sail thats stable, as getting up wind in 25knts on 6.7m can be hard enough let alone the COE moving about.

So to end my rambling yes cams are faster even if its just for the comfort factor that allows you to keep the hammer down and go faster.

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Bender said...

IMHO cammed sails are faster because
1. Being so stable you can carry a bigger sail size givng more power.

2. Being so stable you can sail comforatably very powered up because the sail is not moving around so much allowing you to sail very efficiently.

3. Being comfortable you can sail faster because your not fighting to keep the sail locked down.

Across the wind in just powered up conditons there is probably not much difference but since we are talking about trying to go fast and that means saling broad.

sailing very broad doing 30knts in 25knts of wind you want a sail thats stable as getting up wind in 25knts on 6.7m can be hard enough let alone the COE movong about.

So to end my rambling yes cams are faster even if its just for the comfort factor that allows you to keep the hammer down and go faster.

Todays modern no cam sails are very comfortable and very stable to use compared to their older counter parts, when powered they develope their fullness which is cut into the design but in gusty conditions they dont hold the fuller shape and end up flattening in their profile, this is where cambered race sails have a big advantage over non cambered sails, the race sails have this shaped and fullness locked in which keeps the sail powered all the time.

If you get a chance check out the boards review. What people are saying here and what I used to believe is contradicted by these findings.

The cambered sails were better tight to the wind when over powered, off the wind they were neck and neck with the cambered only slightly better. When comfortably powered the cambered was still not as good as the RAF and only when they ran tighter to the wind did the cambered sail get an advantage. And when underpowered the RAF was faster both upwind and off the wind.

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choco said...

Bender said...

IMHO cammed sails are faster because
1. Being so stable you can carry a bigger sail size givng more power.

2. Being so stable you can sail comforatably very powered up because the sail is not moving around so much allowing you to sail very efficiently.

3. Being comfortable you can sail faster because your not fighting to keep the sail locked down.

Across the wind in just powered up conditons there is probably not much difference but since we are talking about trying to go fast and that means saling broad.



sailing very broad doing 30knts in 25knts of wind you want a sail thats stable as getting up wind in 25knts on 6.7m can be hard enough let alone the COE movong about.

So to end my rambling yes cams are faster even if its just for the comfort factor that allows you to keep the hammer down and go faster.

Todays modern no cam sails are very comfortable and very stable to use compared to their older counter parts, when powered they develope their fullness which is cut into the design but in gusty conditions they dont hold the fuller shape and end up flattening in their profile, this is where cambered race sails have a big advantage over non cambered sails, the race sails have this shaped and fullness locked in which keeps the sail powered all the time.

Yep I'm with Bender and Choco. Used my raf sails on my CA speed board for a couple of seasons, a couple of years ago. Just couldn't catch up with the other team members on their race sails. Changed to a set of cammed sails, but not the full on race variety(don't like to big big luffs). Stable, easy to use, easy to water start.
If you get comfortable you're gonna go faster so I caught up with my other team members and will stick with this type of sail, they're great

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keef said...

Mobydisc said...


So in my experience there probably isn't that much difference for a sailor at my level of skill, fitness and abilities.

maybe your rite karl but how does your non cambered sails handle the bullets, where i sail you have to sail overpowerd most of the time, if you see the bullets with a camed sail you just sail up wind and you dont notice them, with non camed sails you get slammed , well i guess thats why we have more than one sail
"edit "7.8 in 25knts karl thats not bad

I've yet to be slammed by the Loft 02s. I know the feeling of being slammed. When sailing at Narrabeen Lake bullets are a way of life. The Loft 02s are quite stable and I've taken them out when quite overpowered. I still have the North Warp 7.8m. Its more stable and feels like you could sail in a hurricane with it if the water was flat enough.

I'm getting better speeds with the Loft 02s but I'm not a serious full on windsurfer.

i used to race my friend on a Tushingham Raptor 5.4m,he was on a 5.9m nitro.

we were the same speed across and off the wind but upwind no comparison,he would win easily. so i changed.

getting upwind to do downwind runs is not so easy on sails with only a couple of camber inducers to hold the shape.

today i used my 111 litre fanatic falcon in 18/22 knots with my 5.8m sail with 41cm fin and got hammered.

how Peter Volwater was able to win the Ledge a couple of years ago on such a wide,monolithic board in 20 plus knots is f.....g amazing!

small sail + board are faster,the proof.

on falcon today [no gps], guessing i hit 26 knot peak,

on my 88 litre and 5.6m that i also had rigged guessing 29.

I would have to say I agree with bender and I also use both types of sails.

The RAFs are easier to get speed out off but when you get a good cammed sail dialed, it's great.

I like the fact that I can take out my 3 cam NP RSS 7.8m in 12 knots, plane, and not worry about having to down rig until around 20 knts and I've had it out in gusts of up to 25. It will knock out 32 knot runs consistently in 15-20 knots of wind.

Other guys will often say your crazy being out on a 7.8m when they're using 6m sails and less but I love the fact that I can power through on those gusty days (there are many of them) where the wind can vary by 10+ knots on a single tack.

At the end of the day it also comes down to personal preference but i'd still say that if your using sails 7.5m+ then give the cammed sail a go.

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Waiting4wind said...

I would have to say I agree with bender and I also use both types of sails.

I would have to say I agree with bender nebbian and I also use both types of sails.

With a move to a rougher coastal location I've gone from cammy NP sails to NP RAF sails. ( It's hard enough gybing in swell without worrying about complicated sail flicks and batten popping.)

The biggest difference I've noticed is the cammy sails have pretty accurate downhaul and outhaul recommendations, the numbers printed on the RAFs are random. I've collected 4 Hellcats from '08 to '11 and the downhauls on all of them are understated by 3 to 4 cm! Once you figure that out they go heaps better.

Wouldn't want to hazard a guess on the performance difference.

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I've collected 4 Hellcats from '08 to '11 and the downhauls on all of them are understated by 3 to 4 cm! Once you figure that out they go heaps better.

I think the NP crew have lost their tape measures in the last few years. The settings used to be spot on but over the last few years it's been all over the place!



So based on the above, my conclusion on RAF vs CAM is; it all depends on what boards you sail (style) where you sail conditions and the skill level and feel you like on the water.

Get NP H2's twin cam, easy to rig, get back upwind easy after going right off, and still light in the hands compared to full race sails.
The best off both worlds

This season I bought a 7.4 Koyote (KA's no cam race sail) for ocean sailing. It's a great sail, fast and very stable for an uncammed sail. I love it for ocean blasting, and it's fast (I've clocked a few 30K+ peaks in very choppy conditions). It's also really light and very soft in the gybes.

I think on the ocean the water state (i.e. rough) becomes the limiting factor for speed rather than the sail type.

However, I still prefer cammed sails on flatter water and for speedsailing. Like Bender said you can hold down bigger sails, which is what you need to go fast downwind.

It's nice to have both. I wouldn't double up my whole quiver, but I like having a no-cam option for ocean sailing and the 7.4 covers 18-23K, which is a typical Perth seabreeze.

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petermac33 said...

i !

small sail + board are faster,the proof.

on falcon today [no gps], guessing i hit 26 knot peak,

on my 88 litre and 5.6m that i also had rigged guessing 29.

Gee - I love your scientific proof - you should continue to self publish on the strength of that
This is your opinion (which I do agree with some qualification) but it is certainly not proof - that comes with tangible repeatable evidence

Sorry everyone else - pet bug bear when people say proof when they are merely refering to anecdotal evidence

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Windxtasy said...

I recently sailed in 15 - 18 knots with a 5.7 Firefly (RAF) and a 5.7 Koncept. (Not on the same day but same location and similar wind strengths) Although most of my best times have been on the Koncept, in these underpowered conditions the RAF sailgave better speeds. Can't say why. The cambered sail when powered up will give you better speed for size, but more especially better acceleration, upwind and downwind performance.

I'd say your PB on the RAF sail was more due to differences in wind strength than sail size. Prior to purchasing my Koncept my best times were on a 4.7 Storm (RAF) which I use in the windiest conditions.

My Firefly has had little use on the river since I bought the Koncept, for the reasons Bender explains. I will be keeping the Firefly for ocean sailing.

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Waiting4wind said...

So based on the above, my conclusion on RAF vs CAM is; it all depends on what boards you sail (style) where you sail conditions and the skill level and feel you like on the water.

You can feel the RAF sails lose shape and power when you enter a lull, especially going deep off the wind. You have to head back onto the wind to hold power more often than with a cammed sail.

On the other hand when things get a bit much in rough water, it's not as easy to depower a cammed sail. ( Yes I know, you should just keep the hammer down. ) So I agree Des, the skill level is an important consideration.

If you think you're a chance to go top 10 in the Ledge to Lancelin, you'd probably choose a race sail. If you're just aiming to get to the pub via all the cray boats (I'm hoping to have another go one of these years) maybe a RAF sail is the go.