I am in the process of purchasing some decent fins and was leaning towards a range of C3 Venoms (already purchased a 46cm Venom). At around $300AUD delivered they're fairly resonable compared to Select Elites or Deboichets although now with the aussie dollar in the low 90cents US, the Tectonic Talons / Goldwings etc are working out to be around $250 delivered (cheaper if the dollar reaches parity as well)

I notice from the GPSTC that many of you guys are talking about these tectonic Talons. Does anyone have experience with both and if so what sort of differences (if any) were discernible?

Any feedback appreciated.
Cheers,
Sausage

PS - I sail iSonics (122, 101 & 76) predominantly in the open ocean, so the fins have to deal with really choppy conditions mixed with some sizeable swells.

I meant to add that the 30cm KA slalom fin I have is one of the best fins I've sailed, although at $400 each they too are very expensive.

hi sausage,
just to throw a few numbers in the ring as it concerns our product...

three C3 fins [one each out of the three price groups] inclusive delivery to australia cost an average of AU$252 per fin at todays exchange rate.
if someone buys a single fin out of the largest category [42-48cm] it is of course going to be more expensive as the freight is the same for one to three fins...

regards
Boogie
www.C3-fins.com

Tectonics are already imported into Australia, and are available at this time through board crazy in Brisbane. Not sure if the importer has lined up other stores - but knowing him well, it is unlikely at this time. I understand that his arrangement means that Tectonics will not send fins to Aus.

I have also been informed that Dennis believes the talon to be so good that he has ceased production on his other slalom fins (not sure if this is true)

They retail for around the 275-300 mark, and are red hot. Much better control than the select, don't suffer that fatal let go or rapid overpowering that select can. As good as a production deb, and better upwind than the C3 in my opinion. I use them for slalom and in the chop they are amazing fins for speed and control, you really do sail off the fin. Did I mention fast - Finian won Karpathos on one just recently.

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sausage said...

I am in the process of purchasing some decent fins and was leaning towards a range of C3 Venoms (already purchased a 46cm Venom). At around $300AUD delivered they're fairly resonable compared to Select Elites or Deboichets although now with the aussie dollar in the low 90cents US, the Tectonic Talons / Goldwings etc are working out to be around $250 delivered (cheaper if the dollar reaches parity as well)

I notice from the GPSTC that many of you guys are talking about these tectonic Talons. Does anyone have experience with both and if so what sort of differences (if any) were discernible?

Any feedback appreciated.
Cheers,
Sausage

PS - I sail iSonics (122, 101 & 76) predominantly in the open ocean, so the fins have to deal with really choppy conditions mixed with some sizeable swells.

IMHO!
you wont be dissapointed with either of these fins....
both very slippery....
some of my opinions-
i have a 30 and a 38 venom...the 38 was delivered about 2 months ago and landed
to my door aprox $270....

i have a brand new talon 34 landed (IN PERTH!) for $230AU
(this was direct from tectonics Maui and in a package with 5 other fins)
and several falcons and a 34 gold wing.

to properly compare (c3- tecys) you would have to trial apples for apples
i.e same size, same wind,sail lots of variables etc

unfortunately i dont have like sizes of both so the following opinions are a gutfeel only.
both of the venoms are very fast sailing very broad off the wind.
i feel they start to loose traction when put under load-pinching back up wind.
sailing the same waters for decades and comparing angles with other sailors
gives me this opinion.
the venoms def need to be ordered 2 cm bigger than you would think..the c3 forum
also gives this info i believe.
the venoms absolutely smoke down wind,with stacks of control- as you would expect a speed fin should.

if you are sailing isonics you will need big venoms i.e - 38 for the 101


the talon (2hrs sailing so far) feels just as slippery down wind (compared with the goldwing 34) but where it differs to the venoms is its ability to sail upwind well under load. i believe the talons are marketed as a slalom?
in any case they 'feel' similar to the venoms in terms of control downwind through chop...with maybe an edge towards the venom.....

the venom is very thin in the tip thus giving it its control in chop
the talon is slightly stiffer thus giving it a slightly better upwind performance.

really it depends on what sort of sailing you want to do...
if you want to run a speed course then either will be fantastic.
if you want to slalom or tack upwind then the talon may have the edge...


as mentioned above this is my own opinion and my gutfeel for both of the fins.
i have no allegiance to any of the manufacturers.

ps i would really love to try the ka/lockwood fins but as you mention they are just a bit to expensive and difficult to justify spending another $150 for general sailing.

I don't have a real prob getting the Venoms to get upwind I certainly dont think since changing that Ive had a flood of guys passing me upwind.
But like snides says you do need too go a touch bigger with the Venoms.
So its a matter of matching the right size fin to the board, sail and riders weight.
I haven't always got it right recently I tried a 32 in the IS94 to small I actually went faster on the 36 with alot better control as I could trim the board alot better through the chop ect. I was actually out of control more on the 32 believe it or not.
Also to note the Venoms rake decreases as the fins get bigger which makes since to me
there's a fair bit of diff between the 36 and 46.
as far as off the wind performance I haven't felt anything better just superb.

cheers Vando

Guys,
Thankyou for your thorough responses - I really appreciate the very informative assessments.

I am increadibly happy with the performance of the 46cm Venom with the iS122. Even though only used 3 times now in varying conditions, the fin does everything you guys mention below above, although I noticed heading hard upwind you can't dig the leeward rail in too hard as the fin seems to let go - not that this is a bad thing as it seems to point pretty well without having to ride the rail sharply. For a big fin it doesn't take much of an effort to get it back on track from a spin out compared to the stock 46 Drake fin originally supplied. And it does hold it's line really well going hard upwind

Downwind is an absolute pleasure with this fin although I notice my back leg seems to be working harder (this may be cause I'm going faster ) Maybe this will disappear over time.

So where does that leave me with a fin for my smaller sail on the iS122 (7.7 CRed) and larger sail on the iS101 (again the 7.7 CRed)? Boogie has recommended a 38cm Venom (as has Snides) for the 101 and a 42cm Venom as the smallest for the iS122 (as long as fully powered up). As Boogie advised via email to me and as Vando mentioned, I understand a 38 Venom would suit both sails (6.6 & 7.7) on the 101 (correct me if I have misunderstood)

If I go down the Talon path would I be better to purchase a 40cm for the 122 and 101 (high and low wind range respectively) and a 36cm for the 101 with the 6.6sq.m.

BTW - I probably sail square to the wind the majority of the time as conditions don't really allow me to spend too long on broad reaches.

Yours even more confused,
Brian.

A few of us were using talons at the local slalom races on the weekend. General comments echo what Snides said. Talons are more all round go upwind more comfortably, but just as fast off the wind.

Jennsy had a 44cm talon on his isonic 111 with a 7.8 RS racing and he thought that was a perfect match. So if you go the talons I would get a 44 for the 122 and a 40 or a 38 for the 101.

Hi Timbo I could be wrong but weren't both the class winners on C3 not 100% sure as some guys change gear so much its hard to keep up.
end of the day though both are obviously good fins so it then comes down to technique and practice

cheers Vando

Hi guys,

I've had excellent results from matching C3 fins to the Starboard iSonics:

iS122 - 8.5 Koncept - 46 Venom
iS122 - 7.5 Koncept - 42 Venom
iS122 - 6.5 Koncept - 38 + 42 Venom
iS101 - 7.5 Koncept - 42 Venom
iS101 - 6.6 Koncept - 38 Venom
iS101 - 5.8 Koncept - 34 Venom (only when really powered, and for some reason have not grabbed a smaller board - maybe gusty and off-shore?).

Agree totally with previously mentioned comments that they must be at least 2cm larger than you think you need - but control and comfort are superior.

I've now changed my iS122 for a 2010 iS131 to use with 7.5 + 8.5 Koncepts for now, but will change these for KA Race is 7.1 + 8.9 when they are available. Will need a larger fin for the iS131 for ultimate light wind conditions (say 10-12 knots). Have 46 C3 Venom, and 49 Select RSRace, but maybe need a 55 of some sort?

Also need a larger weed fin for iS101 and iS133 (or maybe two weed fins?) - any ideas?

Sorry Sausage, don't want to get off topic......

Chris,very happy with my JP weed 36cm, Carve 121 6.6 concept, or 8.0.GTX,[compared to Select same size] But would be lost without my Select 51cm anti weed Techno 2 8.5 GTX.

I've got a 40 Choco weedie which is good with my 7.5 Koncept + 120L Kinetic Centurion (Centurion is similar spec to iS122, but not quite as wide, 70cm).

Well worth considering for a larger weedie.

what about MFC,

i know the are not as fast off the wind as the C3 or tectonics but around corners, across the wind they are the best i've used. nothing better upwind either.

@ Chris,
Thanks for noting your preferred combos.

Do you think I can get away with a 38 Venom on the iS101 with my 7.7 CRed? I comfortably sail this combo at moment using a 37cm Select SL7, although it does tend to spin out in the lulls (so if C3's need to be 2cm longer then I may be pushing it).

G-day Sausage , i have recently sailed with my 101 on a 7.8 with the C3 40cm and it was really good no spinouts and points very good upwind and some of the gusts did hit up to 20kts and had no problems in keeping it under control had a good feeling that i could have it in a bit stronger wind , i would not go any smaller unless u want to speed sail with this combo!!!
The day before i sailed the 101 with the 6.7 and 36cm Venom it felt nice but still i felt that i needed the 38 for this combo for better upwind preformance and more lift....

Sausage: I reckon 38 with a 7.7 will be pushing it a bit. A 42 will certainly be more comfortable as an allround fin for that sail / board combo. It will greatly improve the bottom end and give you the confidence to load the fin earlier.

Pierre: Good to hear that you are liking the 101. It's a great board that will be the one you reach for the most - huge wind + sail range.

I sailed my new iS131 on Sunday for the first time. The wind was #$it, but when you have a new board, you take it out regardless. It was only 10 knots max. I rigged 8.5 Koncept with 46 Venom. I was definitely underfinned. The board pumped onto a plane extremely early, but I couldn't load the fin in the light wind. I really need a 50 - 55 fin. Deb? Techtonics? Pity C3 don't go that big, as they would be my first choice without hesitation....

Thanks Pierre and Chris for the feedback. I gather if I get a 42 and a 38 I can use 42 with 122 as well as the 101.

[EDIT - What happened to Boogie's last post????]
Boogie,
Sorry to be a big pain in the butt. AlsoI don't believe you are ranting on and on (as much as me anyway), but I'm still slightly confused. I hope you don't take offence to me posting your email on this thread (I thought it very helpful to share and reiterates your advice in last post)

best fins in the iSonic101 as tested by Ian Fox are the Venom 36 and 38 & 40 [edit - see C3's post below]
don't go smaller as there is nothing to gain by that. there is no increase in control as you will be lacking vertical lift from the fin, which can lead to a very flighty nose. the board will just sit tail down and not plane up as early. the board will be faster in peak and average speed with a bigger fin due to better trim.
you could push the bottom end with a 40, but i guess you would be much happier on the iSonic122 in those circumstances.
the smallest fin that really works on the iSonic122 is the Venom42, but only if you are really fully powered ALL THE TIME. Venom 44 and Venom 46 are the sweet sizes for that board.

the fin sizes are not directly related to the sail sizes... only indirect as the fin size is more dependent on
the average speed you do/the width of the tail of the board/the weight or better righting moment of the rider
you can use a smaller fin with a bigger sail as long as the water stays flat and you do fast sailing [like GPS speed sailing or downwind slalom]
and a smaller fin is not always faster... certainly not with the Venoms..

So before your last post I was leaning towards the 38 as the optimum fin for the iS101 based on everyone's feedback(forgetting for a moment the iS122 fin option) whereas your comment in your last post above infers that a 40 Venom would be the optimum size for this board?????

Just tell me which one and put me out of my misery
Cheers,
Brian

hi brian,
sorry for taking the post off.
i only figured out in that last post which i took off that i made a bigger mistake which wasn't going to be fixed with a quick edit...

somehow my brain switched over to you having a iS111 not the 101.
...might have something to do that i'm looking into getting the 111 myself
so all the sizes where a bit mixed up and the point i was trying to make looked silly and didn't make sense.
i'll edit it later and repost.

i can't emphasis this enough:
"the fin sizes are not directly related to the sail sizes... only indirect as the fin size is more dependent on
the average speed you do/the width of the tail of the board/the weight or better righting moment of the rider
you can use a smaller fin with a bigger sail as long as the water stays flat and you do fast sailing [like GPS speed sailing or downwind slalom]
and a smaller fin is not always faster... certainly not with the Venoms.."

Boogie
www.C3-fins.com

I haven't used the Tectonics but I am big fan of the C3's.

I have a 26, 30 and 34. I have used the 30 with 7.0, 90 litre slalom board and found the upwind performance lacking - but I know I am streching the limits on this combo.

Ran the 30 with a 6.4 - just sweet. Tried the 34 with a 7.0 - really nice. I'm with Vando's thought on the upwind performance when you have the right fin/sail combo I have no problem they point just fine.

Thing I like the mose about the C3 is the feeling of confidence going off the wind - they are very stable.

- J

Out of interest I just found this post from Sailquik on a thread around mid 2007 - it's more speed related rather than slalom but relevant none the less.

It is definitely possible to go too small with a speed fin and not just because of spinout.
As I understand it, every foil has an optimum loading and angle of attack. Put simply (the only way I understand it) if you go too small you may need too much AOA to get the lift you need and therefore create too much drag, or earlier onset of drag producing cavitation. A slightly larger fin may run at a better, lower AOA and have a lower L/D ratio as a result, more margin for shock loading to prevent spinout and a higher threshold of cavitation.
Tighter courses require more lift. Broader running may require less. Therefore the angle of your course can affect the optimum size fin for you as well.
At Sandy Point it seems that for symmetrical slalom fins the optimum size in length is around 25-28cm for most people at 115-130 off the wind. There will be, and are, exceptions as length is not always a good indicator of lift. Area and foil shape come into it.
For assymetrical fins the sizes that can be effiently used tends to be shorter/smaller. They can produce a higher L/D ratio for the same area. I have used assy speed fins from 19cm to 24cm. Those extremes were mostly not ideal for me in the foils used. So far I find 20-22cm is best for me depending on the fin/foil.

Learning heaps from this topic. Can someone please explain why, with the following 3 boards, the first two have similar dimensions but different stock fin, the latter two different dimensions and similar sized stock fin?

Sonic 85L 245 long 56 wide 36.5 tail has a 30cm stock fin

iSonic 86L 243 long 56.5 wide 37.3 tail has a 34 cm stock fin

Futura 93L 237.5 long 61.5 wide 42.7 tail has a 34 cm stock fin

Cheers, P

hi brian,
had a dig around the various lists about fin size recommendations which i have and also had a chat with Ian Fox to confirm my findings.
i made a mistake in my original email to you about the recommended sizes for the iS101. the 36 and 38 are the recommended sizes for most other brands models. the actually best sizes for the C3 Venoms are the 38 and 40 for that board with the 40 being the best all round size and definitely the best size if you want to use the 7.7 on it.
you won't be disappointed with a Venom 40 on that board.

sorry to everyone following this post about the confusion.
how about a free freight deal to anyone in Australia who orders in the next two days (up to and inclusive Thursday 5th November '09)?


just a few more comments regarding the sizing in the special case of the Venom fins.
we have found out through extensive testing that the smallest Venom fin which can be used on a certain board is not the fastest fin in "normal" sailing conditions and not the one with the best control either.

let me explain in a bit more detail.
what happens when you go as small as possible without running into spinout problem [from just too small of an area] is that the Venom because of the very thin and flexible tip does not produce enough power from the tip because the fin is in "overload" [tip shedding power with twist] most of the time. which means for the trim of the board that the board sits tail down. it planes up slower and at higher speeds the nose gets flighty.
the fins are designed in such a way that when you go just a bit longer the fin will produce enough power from the tip to trim the board flatter and make it hover of the chop and has some "suspension" left for a smooth ride. the nose keeps relatively low even in strong gusts and you just keep accelerating instead of fighting a board getting nervous. when you hit the right size with the Venom you can put the hammer down in the wildest conditions with total confidence.

testing with GPS for speed measurements we have found out that the "right" size is unquestionably faster than the smaller ones in peak and average speeds.
we have repeated this test several times with a Fanatic Ray125 @ 70cm wide.
we tried fins from 42 to 48cm on that board with 7.2 and 8.4 RS Slalom sails. none of the fins had spin out problems when planing, but the fastest fin with a clear margin was the Venom 46. in very light winds with the 8.4 the 48 was better, in flat-ish water powered 7.2 conditions the 44 was just even to the 46.

the only place to go for the smallest fin on a certain board is if you want to push the peak speeds on a real speed course with super flat water.

sorry for ranting on and on....

Boogie
www.C3-fins.com

Still only in Tuttle Boogie? no Powerbox yet? right.

Mineral

Boogie,
Ordered the 40cm Venom and paid for with all of my Melbourne Cup winnings (thanks for the free freight offer also).

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paddymac said...

Learning heaps from this topic. Can someone please explain why, with the following 3 boards, the first two have similar dimensions but different stock fin, the latter two different dimensions and similar sized stock fin?

Sonic 85L 245 long 56 wide 36.5 tail has a 30cm stock fin

iSonic 86L 243 long 56.5 wide 37.3 tail has a 34 cm stock fin

Futura 93L 237.5 long 61.5 wide 42.7 tail has a 34 cm stock fin

Cheers, P

Just a guess Paddy, but the Sonic and Futura are more free-ridey boards than the iSonic and probably pitched at the intermediate sailor, whereas the iSonic is clearly pitched at more expert sailors. A more advanced sailor is likely to move the footstraps to the outboard position and sail the board well-powered up on the fin (and standing outboard on the rails generates a larger turning moment on the fin requiring a larger foil). An intermediate sailor is less likely to be comfortable sailing in this mode, and if he stands more inboard the turning moment on the fin is reduced. Hence the Futura 93, which is quite a bit wider than the iSonic 86, comes with the same size fin, and the Sonic 85, although similar width to the iSonic, has a smaller fin.

I note that Jesper was running a 36 Vector in his Futura 93 on Saturday when he did his smoking hour at Hardies (with a 6.5CR). Largish fin for that board/sail combo, but clearly a winner for consistent speed across the wind (as opposed to going downwind chasing naughty miles, when a smaller fin might have been the go).

This is also consistent with Boogie's comment that a larger fin generates more lift and enables the board to 'hover' over the chop. It gets pretty choppy in the middle of the estuary, so the 36 was a good choice for Jesper's one hour mission.

hi mineral,
i'm working on a range of performance oriented freeride fins at the moment, but that means with production approval and order lead times it will be at least april before they are available...
there will be no production race fins in PB. the freeride fins are the only chance of C3 fins being available in PB

Boogie
www.C3-fins.com

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mineral1 said...

Still only in Tuttle Boogie? no Powerbox yet? right.

Mineral

Good stuff Boogie, a few of us keen to see what you can do. Keep us posted on progress

So Boogie, what size Venom do you recommend for a Fanatic Falcon 111 with a light weight sailor? (6.5 and 7.3 sails)

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NotWal said...

So Boogie, what size Venom do you recommend for a Fanatic Falcon 111 with a light weight sailor? (6.5 and 7.3 sails)

42

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vando said...

NotWal said...

So Boogie, what size Venom do you recommend for a Fanatic Falcon 111 with a light weight sailor? (6.5 and 7.3 sails)

42

Isn't that the answer to the meaning of life the universe and everything?