I'm not professing to be an expert (I've only had a GPS for a month) but it has occurred to me that there must be another statistic that we should be using to give us an opportunity to rank and compare speed sailors that will indicate some sort of relative skill level.

Since it seems that the top speeds can only really be achieved by the heavier sailors, many competitors will never stand a chance. Like short basketball-players or light weight-lifters, light windsurfers can never get a true sense of their skill level using the current statistics.

I would think that if two people achieve the same speed, the lighter sailor would be generally accepted as being more highly skilled.

So, would it be valid to introduce another measurement category for the GPSTC that adjusts for the weight of the sailor? I am wondering if "knots per kilo" would be a suitable one. What do you think? I am sure that the more mathematically inclined amongst us will be able to refine this appropriately but for the sake of debate, I have examined some stats and offer the following interesting conclusions:

................................ KNOTS.....................KG....................KNOTS/KG

Tom Chalko...................43.........................73 .........................0.59
Chris Lockwood............. 50.........................86.........................0.58
Izaac Perkins................ 38.........................65.........................0.58
Lucy Water................... 32.........................58.........................0.55
Craig Hollins ................ 43.........................80.........................0.54
Anthony Perkins............ 39.........................75.........................0.52
Ben Willemse................ 30.........................58.........................0.51
Tony Wynhoven............. 47.........................99.........................0.47
Akim Halank ................. 30.........................64.........................0.47
Dave White................... 46.........................111........................0.41

Without wanting to offend anyone or underrate their achievements, my table demonstrates that:

1. The cream still rises to the top,but it's a mixture of full cream and fat free
2. The highly skilled sailors are at the top of the list, but from different weight divisions
3. Young Izaak is as skilled per kg as Lockwood and better than his dad
4. I'm guessing Lucy is a highly skilled windsurfer ,better even than Kato (or she lied about her weight)
5. I haven't seen this Tony Wynhoven bloke windsurf,but I must be about as good as him
6. Whitey HA,HA- can't wait till the next time I talk to you,lucky you're a good photographer...

Of course I have a vested interest in this issue because I am a light-weight at 64kg and don't want to live at the bottom of every list! I'm sure women would also like to more fairly compete with the men. It might be nice for husbands and wives, parents and children or two sailors of different weight who sail at the same location to measure improvement gains against each other. This is also the best formula I could come up with to prove that my 8 year old son Alex is (pound for pound) the best windsurfer in the world!

His stats speak for themselves:

................................ KNOTS.....................KG....................KNOTS/KG

Alex Halank...................17........................ 26.....................0.65

I think we could also do something along these lines in the team rankings too - eg. average team weight per average team speed???

A good idea though its preferable to keep the challenge simpler. How would weight be verified? My own weight has a range of around 4kgs during a week.

wow it might be a good ranking to have along side with individual.ha dad might move up a bit because his top speed is 41.7 but hopefully not pass me.another guy would be well up there is Andrew daff.but a great ratio for Alex.

personally i think the notion of heavier sailors being faster is a myth,it used to be years ago but with todays equipment there's bugger all difference and dont forget lighter sailors carry weight as much as 10-15kg of weight.

Would keep everyone regular befor ethey went out on a speed run oh s**T. Gee I went another 1 kt faster after that

I was predicting that the lightweights would applaud this concept but the big guys will poo poo this silly idea.

Choco,I'm guessing your not in my weight division and have not mastered strapping helium to your back .

personally i think the notion of heavier sailors being faster is a myth

Why then have no 60kg sailors done even 40 knots,don't any 60kg sailors have as much skill as the heavyweights.
Do you really believe that weight has no bearing when it comes to speed sailing!

If you are right then, weight would also have no relevant bearing in freestyle sailing.So if you and I had a expression session in freestyle, would the judges would find it difficult to split difference between me(64kg) and you(say 100kg).Would it be a fair fight?Or should I strap some lead to my back so to give me half a chance!

i think it important to not confuse weight and height.

edit**

height/weight ratio seems to give the biggest advantage with windsurfing. yes weight helps you keep the board on the water in high winds and lack of gets you planing earlier in light winds but the ratio has the biggest potential to allow more leverage

maybe knots/height-weight ratio would be more relevant?

yes i think that is closer.

maybe (knots / (power/weight))

check out this article.

carbonsugar.com/racing/power-to-weight-your-stance-vs-antoines/

edit*

or maybe (knots / (height/weight))

is that right??? i'm not a math expert.

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KA360 said...
Why then have no 60kg sailors done even 40 knots,don't any 60kg sailors have as much skill as the heavyweights.

I suspect their balls are smaller i.e. a 120kg man will have twice the balls as a 60kg boy.

PS- only Joking boys.

Weight would only really be useful as a measure if everyone used exactly the same equipment rigged exactly the same way.

With the wide range of of variables:
Board volume
Sail size
sail type
How high boom is set
how long are harness lines
etc

pulling a single part of the whole formulae is pretty much pointless.

"no one under 60 kg has doen over 40 knots" this kind of statement is just dumb.
How many sailers do you actually know who are in that weight class ? of those how many have access to equipment designed for that wieght range?
Most equipment is designed for people who are 70-90 kg (ie human norm)

I wont deny weight plays its part but there is so much more to the equation.

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Gestalt said...

i think it important to not confuse weight and height.

edit**

height/weight ratio seems to give the biggest advantage with windsurfing. yes weight helps you keep the board on the water in high winds and lack of gets you planing earlier in light winds but the ratio has the biggest potential to allow more leverage

Seriously though, I agree Gestalt. From my observations, I reckon a taller sailor has an added advantage regardless of their weight although at the end of the day skill and ability (and not to forget the right gear) is the only real measuring stick.

^ yes, most champs are tall people.


there is an interesting section with chris lockwood on wizards of oz where he talks about weight versus speed in speed sailing.

he makes it very clear that equipment/tuning are the big factors as well.

althouhg most of the 7th section ideas are not really measurable and the experts will laugh it off as pointless it is a bit of fun and adds somehting else. same as the speed versus wind strength ratio. i like that one also.

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sausage said...

KA360 said...
Why then have no 60kg sailors done even 40 knots,don't any 60kg sailors have as much skill as the heavyweights.

I suspect their balls are smaller i.e. a 120kg man will have twice the balls as a 60kg boy.

PS- only Joking boys.

If it does come down to ball size, then I'd like to nominate Choco as the GTC Nut Sack Adjudicator

And if it does come down to ball size, how in the hell can Izaac at 65kg body weight walk in a straight line

Sorry Akim, good thought provoking thread

In my opinion some of the highest skilled windsurfers are in the 60-70 kg bracket(young freestylers and wave sailors)but are not rewarded with great overall max speeds.

Who is more skilled Micah Buzianis(100kg) or Gollito (60kg)?

Micah is far faster but imo Gollito is far superior in skill level- but then I am a freestyler by nature

Players from other disciplines will more readily join in if there is a more level playing field
Lightweights would get more satisfaction too

or is speed sailing only truly satisfying for those who are heavy and live near sandy point

How then can lightweights in real world locations gauge their performance against the big players?

sausage said...

KA360 said...
Why then have no 60kg sailors done even 40 knots,don't any 60kg sailors have as much skill as the heavyweights.



I suspect their balls are smaller i.e. a 120kg man will have twice the balls as a 60kg boy.

PS- only Joking boys.



If it does come down to ball size, then I'd like to nominate Choco as the GTC Nut Sack Adjudicator

And if it does come down to ball size, how in the hell can Izaac at 65kg body weight walk in a straight line


Speed sailing is about all the action a 120kg blokes balls are going to get!
Think back to when you were 15,your balls were on fire and felt like they were going to explode
Izaac might slow down a bit if he gets a girlfriend,lets keep an eye on his stats ,we might be able to tell if he is getting a bit

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sausage said...

KA360 said...
Why then have no 60kg sailors done even 40 knots,don't any 60kg sailors have as much skill as the heavyweights.

I suspect their balls are smaller i.e. a 120kg man will have twice the balls as a 60kg boy.

PS- only Joking boys.

Would hairy balls make you faster?? That may put the boy at a disadvantage.

Seriously tho I think it would be to hard to verify someones weight. I can never find scales that read my true weight anyway, damn things always overread.

I suggest an 8th category.

"fun per session" can be guaged by on my copyrighted smiley scale


10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1


finally a category i can enter cause I don't have a GPS

hairy balls i think are a dissadvantage. to much drag.

i've noticed choco and sausage using 1200 grit on their balls.

i think there is a photo somewhere of the prep work from up at burrum heads.

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KA360 said...

I was predicting that the lightweights would applaud this concept but the big guys will poo poo this silly idea.

Choco,I'm guessing your not in my weight division and have not mastered strapping helium to your back .

personally i think the notion of heavier sailors being faster is a myth

Why then have no 60kg sailors done even 40 knots,don't any 60kg sailors have as much skill as the heavyweights.
Do you really believe that weight has no bearing when it comes to speed sailing!

If you are right then, weight would also have no relevant bearing in freestyle sailing.So if you and I had a expression session in freestyle, would the judges would find it difficult to split difference between me(64kg) and you(say 100kg).Would it be a fair fight?Or should I strap some lead to my back so to give me half a chance!

Akim,

Have you ever sailed at Sandy Point? i'm sure that if you do some trips down there that you will do 40knts.
Obivously you'll be on smaller kit than the big guys but that shouldn't make any difference at all if the course is very broad.
Martin Van Meurs has posted on windsurfing nl this exact topic makes for some good reading.if the link doesn't work just go to the forums using google translate it's under the "light weight advantage" speed section
translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://www.windsurfing.nl/&ei=apLbS--bM4iQsAPpu_nUAQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBUQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwindsurfing%2Bnl%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-au:IE-SearchBox

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Ian1 said...

sausage said...

KA360 said...
Why then have no 60kg sailors done even 40 knots,don't any 60kg sailors have as much skill as the heavyweights.

I suspect their balls are smaller i.e. a 120kg man will have twice the balls as a 60kg boy.

PS- only Joking boys.

Would hairy balls make you faster?? That may put the boy at a disadvantage.

Seriously tho I think it would be to hard to verify someones weight. I can never find scales that read my true weight anyway, damn things always overread.

It's not just "meat and bone" weight, i'm 104kg then add wet wetsuit,harness and PFD and there's another 10kg when wet.

haha my last GF did not distract me from windsurfing, if she wanted to hang out on a dream speed day she understood because she thought i was a gun windsurfer.i think im going to improve my speed soon with the new gear that just turned up.

izaak,

growing up as a lad the saying used to be "who's your daddy?"

seems like the gen y version is "I'm the gun"

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Gestalt said...

i've noticed choco and sausage using 1200 grit on their balls.

Not 1200 grit, 120 grit Gestalt

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sausage said...

Gestalt said...

i've noticed choco and sausage using 1200 grit on their balls.

Not 1200 grit, 120 grit Gestalt

Only softies use 1200 grit on their testies, I;m down to 80 atm

you guys are real tuff,

i stopped with the sandpaper years ago.

now i just get everything polished.


sorry ka360 i couldn't avoid going offtrack with this thread.

A question:

Why would all of the fastest professional windsurfers in the world wear weight in speed competitions (even Dave White) if it wasnt an advantage?

I can think of two possible answers

1) they are all stupid
2) heavier is faster for them

Leverage is important for power/weight
Weight is important for generating more leverage and for dynamic stability.

Both of these things help to make things more efficient if you are tuned.

For me I have found consistently that adding weight makes me faster, as long as I can still hang on and feel balanced.

PS I havent looked at the interview that Matt did on Wizards- I'm too scared to . Theres a good chance the 6 or so beers I had before might have affected the usefulness of anything I said

should also say that I dont wear weight all the time because it burns me out a lot quicker.

When the conditions are very gusty you might need to do a lot of runs to get one good patch of wind. Thats the way it is in a lot of places (especially here).

So unless you are built like a machine (or Pierre) its sometimes better to sail lighter and get a lot more runs in to maximise your chances of getting a good patch of wind.

My fastest sessions over here were all done with weight jacket in the car. But at SP or racing overseas I always wear weight.

A weight jacket significantly boosts leverage. The higher up the weight, the better (as long as it doesnt bugger your back up).

Just a few that should be on that list
Pete with a 41.73 and is about 70kg Ratio of .596
Daffy with a .590
and Matt with a .616 ratio (and a lucky gust )

All these guys are a little height challenged and on the light side but they set up their gear very well for the conditions and practice a lot. The limiting factor in sailing fast will always be the water state, flat =fast speeds. But sailing in chop will will help with your speeds when you get to flat water.A 36 in chop is a 40 on flat water both need the right comitment to achieve. For a look at flat water with a lot of wind have a look at Drifts new movie when its available. 60kts with flat water,lots of fun.

Opps forgot Adrian with a winning .656

lol chris,

well to quote you you said somehting along the lines of....

a heavier sailor has an advantage when it comes to speed sailing. but alas you aren't giving up the chase.

"actually you didn't use the word alas."

you went on to say that tuning plays a very big part in the whole equation and that a lighter guy on a properly tuned gear will always beat a heavier guy on poorly tuned gear.,


you then said something or other about the fatties at sandy point being a bunch of girls

then something else about freestyle being the ultimate discipline and wave sailors being a bunch of wannabe surfers

ok i made the last bit up about freestyle and wave sailors.

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slowboat said...



A weight jacket significantly boosts leverage. The higher up the weight, the better (as long as it doesnt bugger your back up).

yes but all of the top sailors in speed/slalom are over 6 foot aren't they