Has anyone tried sailing a slalom board (say 110 liters, 75cm wide) with a 5.0 wave sail? I am interested only in how early this setup would plane, nothing else. I understand it would feel wrong, wouldn't keep the nose down, all that stuff...but I am simply wondering how much earlier I could get going vs. my regular boards. I figure I need about 15-16 knots to plane with my 5.0 right now (104 liter freewave board). With a good carbon fin, how low could I get going with a high-end slalom board? 12 knots (14mph) possible with heavy pumping to get going, or no chance? I weigh ~72kg.

We are approaching the end of our windy season and every year at this time I get antsy and come up with a stupid new project to try. If I can get going a few knots quicker on the lamest days this would be interesting to me for a few days this fall which is all I'm looking for. I am not interested in getting a sail bigger than 5.0, nor am I interesting in foiling/kites/wings/jetskis or whatever else would be immediately recommended by most people these days.

Thanks for any ideas or input!

edit: also open to attempting this moronathon on a 100cm formula board

Just try it out and see how you go

I, at 160 lbs., have used a Simmer 4.2 Reef Wave on my 109 JP Supersport. Wind around 23-25 knots.
Worked good, really fast, easily climbed upwind to 2 big dudes on 6.6's, ARG and another country numbers, very equal top speeds.
As for light winds, works with 5.0 wave sail in gusts of 20 mph. OTOH, I can get a 5.0 wave sail to fly around on a 95 liter freeride board of 58 cm width.
5.0 wave sail, I need 21 knot wind to barely plane on my 78 liter wave JP. BARELY plane.

I don't think that you will plane any earlier actually, but you might possibly glide through lulls a little better and not fall off the plane quite as easily.

I'm about 65kg and I feel that there is a big difference in the power from the wind once you go below 14-16knots of wind. The only thing that works in around 12knots of wind, for me, is a formula board and a 9.6-10.7 sail.

That's because the energy in the wind goes up with the cube of its speed. I'm not clear why. I assumed 1/2 mv² applied

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gandalf99 said..
Has anyone tried sailing a slalom board (say 110 liters, 75cm wide) with a 5.0 wave sail? I am interested only in how early this setup would plane, nothing else. I understand it would feel wrong, wouldn't keep the nose down, all that stuff...but I am simply wondering how much earlier I could get going vs. my regular boards. I figure I need about 15-16 knots to plane with my 5.0 right now (104 liter freewave board). With a good carbon fin, how low could I get going with a high-end slalom board? 12 knots (14mph) possible with heavy pumping to get going, or no chance? I weigh ~72kg.

We are approaching the end of our windy season and every year at this time I get antsy and come up with a stupid new project to try. If I can get going a few knots quicker on the lamest days this would be interesting to me for a few days this fall which is all I'm looking for. I am not interested in getting a sail bigger than 5.0, nor am I interesting in foiling/kites/wings/jetskis or whatever else would be immediately recommended by most people these days.

Thanks for any ideas or input!

edit: also open to attempting this moronathon on a 100cm formula board

A slalom board will always plane earlier for sure ..

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Tardy said..

gandalf99 said..
Has anyone tried sailing a slalom board (say 110 liters, 75cm wide) with a 5.0 wave sail? I am interested only in how early this setup would plane, nothing else. I understand it would feel wrong, wouldn't keep the nose down, all that stuff...but I am simply wondering how much earlier I could get going vs. my regular boards. I figure I need about 15-16 knots to plane with my 5.0 right now (104 liter freewave board). With a good carbon fin, how low could I get going with a high-end slalom board? 12 knots (14mph) possible with heavy pumping to get going, or no chance? I weigh ~72kg.

We are approaching the end of our windy season and every year at this time I get antsy and come up with a stupid new project to try. If I can get going a few knots quicker on the lamest days this would be interesting to me for a few days this fall which is all I'm looking for. I am not interested in getting a sail bigger than 5.0, nor am I interesting in foiling/kites/wings/jetskis or whatever else would be immediately recommended by most people these days.

Thanks for any ideas or input!

edit: also open to attempting this moronathon on a 100cm formula board

A slalom board will always plane earlier for sure ..

And if you can afford a old cheap 7.5 rig you will be grinning
If you have the skill to use only regular small boards, you will handle a 7.5 with ease .
I can't see a problem in underpowered conditions using a small sail on a big board.

The problem I have found is there is not enough power in the sail to be able to hang weight off it and get out on the rail where u need to be.

I had 135L Magic Ride and 7.5 freerace sail. By the time it was windy enough, I'm almost planing on a 120L FSW and 7m Gator (as its a power sail not a race sail that needs much more wind)
It's a big board it needs big sails.
Don't mismatch gear if you can. Get a cheap FSW and bigger non cambered sail secondhand before trying wave sails on slalom boards or vice versa.

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Mark _australia said..
The problem I have found is there is not enough power in the sail to be able to hang weight off it and get out on the rail where u need to be.

I had 135L Magic Ride and 7.5 freerace sail. By the time it was windy enough, I'm almost planing on a 120L FSW and 7m Gator (as its a power sail not a race sail that needs much more wind)
It's a big board it needs big sails.
Don't mismatch gear if you can. Get a cheap FSW and bigger non cambered sail secondhand before trying wave sails on slalom boards or vice versa.

Excellent point. Slalom boards have the straps right out on the rails. With that much leverage on the fin, if the fin is too small you have to be as light as a feather with the back foot.
Pumping the board onto the plane with a 5m on a slalom board will be quicker than a 104l freewave, but what then? It will be like a sports motorbike with 6 gears being stuck in 3rd at 1/4 throttle. Whats the point?

Tried a 106L freestyle board in 13-18 knots with 5.0:

windsurfing.lepicture.com/board-tests/#2012-JP-FS

Planing monster! Couldn't plane in 13 knots but once planing never lost it. I was planing 80% of the time if not more in 13-18 knots. Wouldn't have caught the plane on a 85 once.

You'd need a smaller fin and you'll be able to crush lulls like they don't exist.

You can also bag out your sail to get huge low end and it won't hurt you once going because you'll be sailing underpowered only.

I've had a lot of fun with a 5.0 wave sail on a Magic Ride 104

I have a starboard Atomiq 110. Anything less than 5.7 is horrible for the reasons outlined above. 7.5 NCX is perfection

+1 for Freestyle board. It has rockerline similar to a slalom board but Stance more like Freewave so will balance out nicely with the wavesail. I don't know about 12kts... but it WILL definitely get going earlier than your Freewave.

72kg and a 5.0m sail is not going to happen in 12 knots...

My brother is 75kg and needs 130L and 7.0m in such conditions...and that combo is still underpowered

To extend your time on the water, it makes much more sense to invest in a bigger freeride sail like a NP Ryde 6.2 or Severne Gator 6.5 and combine it with a 35cm fin.
Those will still fit your 104 FSW board and give you more low-end

This is an interesting question: if you can't plane on a freewave, would you get planing on a slalom board which is wider and with a bit more volume?

The answer is that you should get going marginally earlier and, once on the plane, the speed of the slalom gear should mean you keep going, with better apparent wind.
But the problem will be when using a small rig like a 5m metre is that you may struggle to get the board 'unstuck'.
Extra width only really works when loaded with a bigger rig, because the extra surface area starts to make the hull sticky and difficult to 'pop'.

The better option for use with a 5m rig would be a 100 litre freestyle board, probably about 64cms wide. They are the earliest planers for that size of rig, even a ten year old one like a JP freestyle or Fanatic Skate.

If you rig your 5m sail on a 4m mast then you probably could get up to a 5.6 sail on the same mast and boom, but even a 5.2m sail would be a noticeable improvement on your 5.0m.

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Basher said..
This is an interesting question: if you can't plane on a freewave, would you get planing on a slalom board which is wider and with a bit more volume?

The answer is that you should get going marginally earlier and, once on the plane, the speed of the slalom gear should mean you keep going, with better apparent wind.
But the problem will be when using a small rig like a 5m metre is that you may struggle to get the board 'unstuck'.
Extra width only really works when loaded with a bigger rig, because the extra surface area starts to make the hull sticky and difficult to 'pop'.

The better option for use with a 5m rig would be a 100 litre freestyle board, probably about 64cms wide. They are the earliest planers for that size of rig, even a ten year old one like a JP freestyle or Fanatic Skate.

If you rig your 5m sail on a 4m mast then you probably could get up to a 5.6 sail on the same mast and boom, but even a 5.2m sail would be a noticeable improvement on your 5.0m.

My experience, with recent short/wide modern boards, is that in underpowered conditions going from a 90L FSW (60 wide) to just a 95L slalom (62 wide) makes the difference between slogging and loosing ground to planing and staying upwind. The same happens going from underpowered 95x62 or 100x64 slalom to 110x68 or 110x71 slalom. At 68-71 the extra width does not seem to give any problem to get going when underpowered. What seems to matter, besides volume, is the tail area: the larger and more voluminous the better for a quick uptake.

The effect i significant enough that I almost never change sail during a session, if the wind drops I change board.

No experience with freestyle boards, but I do not see why they should have less uptake than a slalom board of the same size in underpowered conditions. Better? I doubt it.

109 Supersport is 65 wide.
My normal "5.0" flatwater board is 56 cm wide.
Yes, in those ranges, wider plane sooner, and if wind is too light for the narrow board, wider planes sooner and is faster.
Sail tuning is required. Fin can stay the same.

72 kg also.
Formula would take MORE wind for 5.0. I had f-162 and f-167. Drag.
Earliest planing would be freestyle board around 110 liters, 66 wide, with a 13" fin. Mine weighs 14.5 lbs.

If you want to use small sails in light wind, foiling is the answer. Or the biggest freestyle board you can find (a foil will still be better).

Not 100% relevant but mentioning it as this was yesterday and there are some similarities:

A learner windsurfer was sailing on a 150L (80cm wide?) Starboard go (plastic learner fin) with a 4.7 Ezzy sail in about 18 knots (sail was also rigged incorrectly on the wrong mast).

I'm 80kg and gave it a try. It planned really easily and was actually good fun! For your weight you could have gotten going on a 4.2. With a decent fin and everything rigged and set up properly, it would be great.

This makes me think that on your 5.0 and a slalom board, you'll be fine

thanks for all the input. sounds like I may have mixed results, but probably not worth pursuing with any serious effort. maybe I'll get a 7.0 and big board again, I've had them off and on in the past and had fun at times.

the real problem is that I just want more days with small gear and waves -- trying to dink around with all this other gear is fun for a bit, but it's not what I'm really after. I've got my sea lion windsup to sail really light wind in the waves (literally 5mph works quite well if the waves aren't too big/unruly), so I should probably just put more effort into finding spots that could work that I haven't discovered yet. not sure they exist but it might be more worthwhile than trying to pull a rabbit out of the hat to get planing in crap breeze...

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duzzi said..
My experience, with recent short/wide modern boards, is that in underpowered conditions going from a 90L FSW (60 wide) to just a 95L slalom (62 wide) makes the difference between slogging and loosing ground to planing and staying upwind. The same happens going from underpowered 95x62 or 100x64 slalom to 110x68 or 110x71 slalom. At 68-71 the extra width does not seem to give any problem to get going when underpowered. What seems to matter, besides volume, is the tail area: the larger and more voluminous the better for a quick uptake.

The effect i significant enough that I almost never change sail during a session, if the wind drops I change board.

No experience with freestyle boards, but I do not see why they should have less uptake than a slalom board of the same size in underpowered conditions. Better? I doubt it.

The point here is more the small sail mismatch. Little sail, wide board - disaster.

I don't think a slalom board will help. For under 15 knots you need 85 cm wide with a big sail to go.

I think you have some options:
- You could get a 5,7 with a really good bottom end - I know you don't like to go bigger than 5,0 but it seems the most reasonable option to me.
- Get a foil like a Supercruiser with a big front wing or equivalent
- Find better spots to use your Sealion in those conditions, it should be okay up to 15 knots with a small sail.

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Mark _australia said..

duzzi said..
My experience, with recent short/wide modern boards, is that in underpowered conditions going from a 90L FSW (60 wide) to just a 95L slalom (62 wide) makes the difference between slogging and loosing ground to planing and staying upwind. The same happens going from underpowered 95x62 or 100x64 slalom to 110x68 or 110x71 slalom. At 68-71 the extra width does not seem to give any problem to get going when underpowered. What seems to matter, besides volume, is the tail area: the larger and more voluminous the better for a quick uptake.

The effect i significant enough that I almost never change sail during a session, if the wind drops I change board.

No experience with freestyle boards, but I do not see why they should have less uptake than a slalom board of the same size in underpowered conditions. Better? I doubt it.

The point here is more the small sail mismatch. Little sail, wide board - disaster.

If you are overpowered for sure, but if you are underpowered there is no much of a problem using a small sail with a "big" board

5 meter wave sails work great on Magic Ride 118 at 76 cm wide. Windrange 15-22.

I did 37 knots on a Magic Ride 104 with a 5.0 NP Search. It was a bit scary.

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duzzi said..

Basher said..
This is an interesting question: if you can't plane on a freewave, would you get planing on a slalom board which is wider and with a bit more volume?

The answer is that you should get going marginally earlier and, once on the plane, the speed of the slalom gear should mean you keep going, with better apparent wind.
But the problem will be when using a small rig like a 5m metre is that you may struggle to get the board 'unstuck'.
Extra width only really works when loaded with a bigger rig, because the extra surface area starts to make the hull sticky and difficult to 'pop'.

The better option for use with a 5m rig would be a 100 litre freestyle board, probably about 64cms wide. They are the earliest planers for that size of rig, even a ten year old one like a JP freestyle or Fanatic Skate.

If you rig your 5m sail on a 4m mast then you probably could get up to a 5.6 sail on the same mast and boom, but even a 5.2m sail would be a noticeable improvement on your 5.0m.

My experience, with recent short/wide modern boards, is that in underpowered conditions going from a 90L FSW (60 wide) to just a 95L slalom (62 wide) makes the difference between slogging and loosing ground to planing and staying upwind. The same happens going from underpowered 95x62 or 100x64 slalom to 110x68 or 110x71 slalom. At 68-71 the extra width does not seem to give any problem to get going when underpowered. What seems to matter, besides volume, is the tail area: the larger and more voluminous the better for a quick uptake.

The effect i significant enough that I almost never change sail during a session, if the wind drops I change board.

No experience with freestyle boards, but I do not see why they should have less uptake than a slalom board of the same size in underpowered conditions. Better? I doubt it.

If you want to get planing with a relatively small sail on a board that has good acceleration and reasonable top speed then the freestyle board is your obvious answer - because that is what they are designed to do. A freestyle board typically has a slalom rocker line, but with a different plan shape that is better for turning and spinning moves.

The slalom board is designed to plane early too and to go fast - but with an oversized sail, and with sail size matched to a longer fin.


The float and board width thing is interesting. To get planing earlier we know to make sure we have positive buoyancy under our feet and this means a minimum of +20litres of volume over our weight in kilos. But then width helps too, if only up to a point. And what I meant was that you can go too wide and the board becomes sticky to get going.

With a freestyle board you pop the board onto the plane using downward pressure against the buoyancy. If you can do this then getting on the plane gives you the increase in apparent wind, and that's what keeps you going in marginal conditions. I find you tend to keep the board going with a lot of ouching and pumping, and so it's like keeping a skateboard moving with kinetic energy.
With a slalom board we tend to pump the tail of the board sideways against the fin to get going, and so the relationship between board and sail size becomes more critical. It's then the big sail and flying the board off its fin that creates the speed and apparent wind to keep going, but the slalom kit will often stall in any marginal wind turns because it's a much more cumbersome set up.

On topic, with a 5m rig, I would not want to be on a 70cms wide board. But I agree that when the wind drops I often go up a board size, rather than changing to a bigger sail size. That's partly because the board change is quicker - and because I don't like big sails.

The only feeling close to wavesailing is foiling, I do it on my WindSUP.
Otherwise perhaps a freestyle board.

Works for me!

I've been using:

4.2 atlas, 5.0 poison, 5.5 vapor and now about to try 6.7 hellcat on manta 98L 64 wide. When I was 83kg I got plaining very quick but would be quicker with perfect size fin.

I'm now 94kg hope to get back down to 90kg.

My 31cm select was perfect for vapor 5.5 but for 5.0 it was just a bit too big. Haven't tried 29cm.

The one and only thing that turned me away was the back straps which are on the side. If 4 on the side I really struggle to get in and sometimes damage my fingers on foot which makes me angry.

I could windsurf so much more if that damn board had 3 straps. So I made a compromise. A freestyle board with about 10L more would feel like slalom but had that ease of 3 strap board.

Been surfing for 14 year so my skills probably won't improve that much so I decided to do buy a fin for that 6.7 on manta but mostly switch to my very first freestyle board Skate 108L.

Screw 5 knots more I want fun.

But generally I was a fan of non cambered sails on slalom board. Would still be a fan but I guess I suck lol

72kg., 5.0 wave sail.
75 liter wave board might need 18 knots.
110x69 might need 15 knots.
To pump onto a plane in flat water.
Tuning the 5.0 might add another knot and 1/2.

Thanks for all the feedback. I ended up getting:

1. A 5.7 Hot Sails PW4. Huge boost but still felt I could do better.

2. Select 39cm carbon fin (instead of stock 32cm or 26cm wave fin). This really made a difference getting over the top when I was able to pump it close to planing.

With this setup (Exocet Cross 104 FSW) I am now planing around 15 knots, maybe closer to 16 (17-18 required with the 5.0). We've had lots of onshore days where I sailed right by our wind sensor (on the water), so I've been able to get a good gauge of the numbers required. I also found a scale and I am 75kg, not 72.

Of course, nothing is ever enough...we have had tons of days around 13 knots. So, I just picked up:

3. JP Freestyle 106 (67cm wide). Haven't had a chance to test it yet, but I'm hopeful this will work in 13knots (15mph). Or soon after.

I think this setup is about as far as I can push it with "small gear". It will still, of course, not solve the underlying problem (its never enough), but hopefully will treat the symptoms a little better...