Hi

sounds like a crazy question, but I was wondering if sailing with with a small kite AND the sail would improve lift. It could be helpful in light winds. I have a Bic Tahe 225 L

Thanks

Francone

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Francone said..
Hi

sounds like a crazy question, but I was wondering if sailing with with a small kite AND the sail would improve lift. It could be helpful in light winds. I have a Bic Tahe 225 L

Thanks

Francone

I am waiting for somebody to come up with a modern version of this:

It's an obvious solution now that wings are much more evolved, and would have the advantage of avoiding the foil bulk and complication. Kiting seems to be destined to become a fringe sport, why on earth would you go around with 20 yard long lines when you can wing? It has all but disappeared where I sail.

Wow! Looks just what I was thinking about! I was not that crazy after all! I'd like to look this wing from a bit more close. I have a hunch, though, that it is not commercially available yet.

Thanks

Francone

Select to expand quote

Francone said..
Wow! Looks just what I was thinking about! I was not that crazy after all! I'd like to look this wing from a bit more close. I have a hunch, though, that it is not commercially available yet.

Thanks

Francone

No is not. It was back in the 80s. Now we need somebody to attach half a mast to a modern inflatable wing and see how it work with a windsurf. You could try it and make history

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duzzi said..

Francone said..
Hi

sounds like a crazy question, but I was wondering if sailing with with a small kite AND the sail would improve lift. It could be helpful in light winds. I have a Bic Tahe 225 L

Thanks

Francone

I am waiting for somebody to come up with a modern version of this:

It's an obvious solution now that wings are much more evolved, and would have the advantage of avoiding the foil bulk and complication. Kiting seems to be destined to become a fringe sport, why on earth would you go around with 20 yard long lines when you can wing? It has all but disappeared where I sail.

The vertical mast it not something I would want to hit, while holding the wing, by the boom, above me.

Basically no.

What works in light winds are foils and race boards with big sails.

100% do it! The sport is crying out for another iteration

Maybe patent it as "weapon of the wind" or something similar?

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AUS1111 said..
100% do it! The sport is crying out for another iteration

Do you mean irritation ?!!

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Sandman1221 said..

duzzi said..

Francone said..
Hi

sounds like a crazy question, but I was wondering if sailing with with a small kite AND the sail would improve lift. It could be helpful in light winds. I have a Bic Tahe 225 L

Thanks

Francone

I am waiting for somebody to come up with a modern version of this:

It's an obvious solution now that wings are much more evolved, and would have the advantage of avoiding the foil bulk and complication. Kiting seems to be destined to become a fringe sport, why on earth would you go around with 20 yard long lines when you can wing? It has all but disappeared where I sail.

The vertical mast it not something I would want to hit, while holding the wing, by the boom, above me.

uh? we have had a mast in front of us since the beginning! It might be just a curiosity, but the interesting part is that the mast would make the foil unnecessary. No more bulking, heavy, hard to ride, dangerous stuff!

Select to expand quote

duzzi said..

Sandman1221 said..

duzzi said..

Francone said..
Hi

sounds like a crazy question, but I was wondering if sailing with with a small kite AND the sail would improve lift. It could be helpful in light winds. I have a Bic Tahe 225 L

Thanks

Francone

I am waiting for somebody to come up with a modern version of this:

It's an obvious solution now that wings are much more evolved, and would have the advantage of avoiding the foil bulk and complication. Kiting seems to be destined to become a fringe sport, why on earth would you go around with 20 yard long lines when you can wing? It has all but disappeared where I sail.

The vertical mast it not something I would want to hit, while holding the wing, by the boom, above me.

uh? we have had a mast in front of us since the beginning! It might be just a curiosity, but the interesting part is that the mast would make the foil unnecessary. No more bulking, heavy, hard to ride, dangerous stuff!

there is a very different geometry for a rider on a windsurfer, the mast is in front of you where it is in your field of vision all the time, you control it directly via the boom, and can avoid it most of the time IME.

Then imagine connecting the boom to the mast using a flexible mechanical mast base, just that makes control of the mast a lot more difficult, then imagine moving the boom upward so your arms are above your head!, then you would have even less control of the mast.

Definitely need a sports cup with that rig

Select to expand quote

Sandman1221 said..

duzzi said..

Sandman1221 said..

duzzi said..

Francone said..
Hi

sounds like a crazy question, but I was wondering if sailing with with a small kite AND the sail would improve lift. It could be helpful in light winds. I have a Bic Tahe 225 L

Thanks

Francone

I am waiting for somebody to come up with a modern version of this:

It's an obvious solution now that wings are much more evolved, and would have the advantage of avoiding the foil bulk and complication. Kiting seems to be destined to become a fringe sport, why on earth would you go around with 20 yard long lines when you can wing? It has all but disappeared where I sail.

The vertical mast it not something I would want to hit, while holding the wing, by the boom, above me.

uh? we have had a mast in front of us since the beginning! It might be just a curiosity, but the interesting part is that the mast would make the foil unnecessary. No more bulking, heavy, hard to ride, dangerous stuff!

there is a very different geometry for a rider on a windsurfer, the mast is in front of you where it is in your field of vision all the time, you control it directly via the boom, and can avoid it most of the time IME.

Then imagine connecting the boom to the mast using a flexible mechanical mast base, just that makes control of the mast a lot more difficult, then imagine moving the boom upward so your arms are above your head!, then you would have even less control of the mast.

Definitely need a sports cup with that rig

Su su, don't be the person that when somebody suggested to use an inflatable wing attached to a short board with a meter long foil at the bottom said it was going to be impossible. Look at what that Tom Magruder was doing 40 years ago!

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Francone said..
Wow! Looks just what I was thinking about! I was not that crazy after all! I'd like to look this wing from a bit more close. I have a hunch, though, that it is not commercially available yet.

Thanks

Francone

Framed wings evolved a lot. They are mostly used on ice and snow. Tons of fun!
www.velocitywingsails.com/
kitewing.com/

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UglyBird said..

Francone said..
Wow! Looks just what I was thinking about! I was not that crazy after all! I'd like to look this wing from a bit more close. I have a hunch, though, that it is not commercially available yet.

Thanks

Francone

Framed wings evolved a lot. They are mostly used on ice and snow. Tons of fun!
www.velocitywingsails.com/
kitewing.com/

Very cool, but only show it being used on ice, maybe because it does not float? Could tether to body, but then could drag you under the water depending on currents and waves.

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Sandman1221 said..

UglyBird said..

Francone said..
Wow! Looks just what I was thinking about! I was not that crazy after all! I'd like to look this wing from a bit more close. I have a hunch, though, that it is not commercially available yet.

Thanks

Francone

Framed wings evolved a lot. They are mostly used on ice and snow. Tons of fun!
www.velocitywingsails.com/
kitewing.com/

Very cool, but only show it being used on ice, maybe because it does not float? Could tether to body, but then could drag you under the water depending on currents and waves.

It is the other way around. The were designed for ice and snow to go real fast. They can be used on water but will require a bit of modding. Better use inflatable wings there, than adding foamy noodles to the frames.

Select to expand quote

duzzi said..

Sandman1221 said..

duzzi said..

Francone said..
Hi

sounds like a crazy question, but I was wondering if sailing with with a small kite AND the sail would improve lift. It could be helpful in light winds. I have a Bic Tahe 225 L

Thanks

Francone

I am waiting for somebody to come up with a modern version of this:

It's an obvious solution now that wings are much more evolved, and would have the advantage of avoiding the foil bulk and complication. Kiting seems to be destined to become a fringe sport, why on earth would you go around with 20 yard long lines when you can wing? It has all but disappeared where I sail.

The vertical mast it not something I would want to hit, while holding the wing, by the boom, above me.

uh? we have had a mast in front of us since the beginning! It might be just a curiosity, but the interesting part is that the mast would make the foil unnecessary. No more bulking, heavy, hard to ride, dangerous stuff!

Why would a mast attach a wing to the board negate the need for a foil?

Select to expand quote

gorgesailor said..

duzzi said..

Sandman1221 said..

duzzi said..

Francone said..
Hi

sounds like a crazy question, but I was wondering if sailing with with a small kite AND the sail would improve lift. It could be helpful in light winds. I have a Bic Tahe 225 L

Thanks

Francone

I am waiting for somebody to come up with a modern version of this:

It's an obvious solution now that wings are much more evolved, and would have the advantage of avoiding the foil bulk and complication. Kiting seems to be destined to become a fringe sport, why on earth would you go around with 20 yard long lines when you can wing? It has all but disappeared where I sail.

The vertical mast it not something I would want to hit, while holding the wing, by the boom, above me.

uh? we have had a mast in front of us since the beginning! It might be just a curiosity, but the interesting part is that the mast would make the foil unnecessary. No more bulking, heavy, hard to ride, dangerous stuff!

Why would a mast attach a wing to the board negate the need for a foil?

I doubt you would even be able to plane if you put a wing on a windsurf, people I have seen trying just slogged. With a mast you could sail the contraption pretty much like a regular windsurf. Look at what the guy is doing with decades old stuff.

Select to expand quote

duzzi said..

gorgesailor said..

duzzi said..

Sandman1221 said..

duzzi said..

Francone said..
Hi

sounds like a crazy question, but I was wondering if sailing with with a small kite AND the sail would improve lift. It could be helpful in light winds. I have a Bic Tahe 225 L

Thanks

Francone

I am waiting for somebody to come up with a modern version of this:

It's an obvious solution now that wings are much more evolved, and would have the advantage of avoiding the foil bulk and complication. Kiting seems to be destined to become a fringe sport, why on earth would you go around with 20 yard long lines when you can wing? It has all but disappeared where I sail.

The vertical mast it not something I would want to hit, while holding the wing, by the boom, above me.

uh? we have had a mast in front of us since the beginning! It might be just a curiosity, but the interesting part is that the mast would make the foil unnecessary. No more bulking, heavy, hard to ride, dangerous stuff!

Why would a mast attach a wing to the board negate the need for a foil?

I doubt you would even be able to plane if you put a wing on a windsurf, people I have seen trying just slogged. With a mast you could sail the contraption pretty much like a regular windsurf. Look at what the guy is doing with decades old stuff.

You can sail a Windsurf board with a Wing - it's a great way to learn the Wing. But... It works best in light wind mode with a centerboard. Also, I have planed a Windsurf board with a Wing, but it is NOT very efficient compared to a sail. That said, I don't think a mast connection would help at all. To me the Wing is about symmetry(jibing & tacking on Foil) & simplicity. Adding to much else take away from that & you might as well use the more efficient traditional rig.... IMO

Select to expand quote

gorgesailor said..

duzzi said..

gorgesailor said..

duzzi said..

Sandman1221 said..

duzzi said..

Francone said..
Hi

sounds like a crazy question, but I was wondering if sailing with with a small kite AND the sail would improve lift. It could be helpful in light winds. I have a Bic Tahe 225 L

Thanks

Francone

I am waiting for somebody to come up with a modern version of this:

It's an obvious solution now that wings are much more evolved, and would have the advantage of avoiding the foil bulk and complication. Kiting seems to be destined to become a fringe sport, why on earth would you go around with 20 yard long lines when you can wing? It has all but disappeared where I sail.

The vertical mast it not something I would want to hit, while holding the wing, by the boom, above me.

uh? we have had a mast in front of us since the beginning! It might be just a curiosity, but the interesting part is that the mast would make the foil unnecessary. No more bulking, heavy, hard to ride, dangerous stuff!

Why would a mast attach a wing to the board negate the need for a foil?

I doubt you would even be able to plane if you put a wing on a windsurf, people I have seen trying just slogged. With a mast you could sail the contraption pretty much like a regular windsurf. Look at what the guy is doing with decades old stuff.

You can sail a Windsurf board with a Wing - it's a great way to learn the Wing. But... It works best in light wind mode with a centerboard. Also, I have planed a Windsurf board with a Wing, but it is NOT very efficient compared to a sail. That said, I don't think a mast connection would help at all. To me the Wing is about symmetry(jibing & tacking on Foil) & simplicity. Adding to much else take away from that & you might as well use the more efficient traditional rig.... IMO

No idea if a new version of the Wing weapon can work, and I do not even any particular interest in the contraption. But innovation is tied to technology and I would not be surprised if somebody revisited the concept and came up with a nice new product years from now. The devil, when it comes to bring an idea to a functional object, is in the details. People tried to put foils on windsurfs back in the 80s, with sort of ludicrous results. We had to wait 30 years to see foil happen!



Although ... it looks nicely stable. A similar contraption was going around at the Berkeley, USA, marina in the 80s, and ended up in Baja California.

Always fun to watch Duzzi try and talk his way around the fact that foiling is the first actual revolution in water sports for +30 years. Easily as important as the first planing hull.
I frequently think he's DLee with better meds.

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Grantmac said..
Always fun to watch Duzzi try and talk his way around the fact that foiling is the first actual revolution in water sports for +30 years. Easily as important as the first planing hull.
I frequently think he's DLee with better meds.

But really, what sort of reply is this? You don't talk to people you have not even met this way. And yes, indeed, it is a revolution, and it took 40 years to make it happen. And that, decades of work, is the case for many technological advances. And that was the point about a possible Wing Weapon re-birth. It might happen as technology improves, in the same way that it happened starting from that lovely foil contraption from 1979 with its original windsurf sail!

But I somehow think you are not interested in conversation. It is much more fun to talk trash, isn't it. Still, please learn some manners, and try to keep this forum civilized.

Select to expand quote

duzzi said..

Grantmac said..
Always fun to watch Duzzi try and talk his way around the fact that foiling is the first actual revolution in water sports for +30 years. Easily as important as the first planing hull.
I frequently think he's DLee with better meds.

But really, what sort of reply is this? You don't talk to people you have not even met this way. And yes, indeed, it is a revolution, and it took 40 years to make it happen. And that, decades of work, is the case for many technological advances. And that was the point about a possible Wing Weapon re-birth. It might happen as technology improves, in the same way that it happened starting from that lovely foil contraption from 1979 with its original windsurf sail!

But I somehow think you are not interested in conversation. It is much more fun to talk trash, isn't it. Still, please learn some manners, and try to keep this forum civilized.

For sure there is value in thinking outside the Box... But, I don't think there is much value in the mast attachment for an inflatable wing. It was pretty important for the Wind Weapon with it's hard spars it would be heavier & hard to support... not to mention it would probably dislocate your shoulder if you were wrist leashed to it...

Select to expand quote

duzzi said..

Grantmac said..
Always fun to watch Duzzi try and talk his way around the fact that foiling is the first actual revolution in water sports for +30 years. Easily as important as the first planing hull.
I frequently think he's DLee with better meds.

But really, what sort of reply is this? You don't talk to people you have not even met this way. And yes, indeed, it is a revolution, and it took 40 years to make it happen. And that, decades of work, is the case for many technological advances. And that was the point about a possible Wing Weapon re-birth. It might happen as technology improves, in the same way that it happened starting from that lovely foil contraption from 1979 with its original windsurf sail!

But I somehow think you are not interested in conversation. It is much more fun to talk trash, isn't it. Still, please learn some manners, and try to keep this forum civilized.

You're right, the DLee comment was out of line.

Select to expand quote

Sandman1221 said..

duzzi said..

Francone said..
Hi

sounds like a crazy question, but I was wondering if sailing with with a small kite AND the sail would improve lift. It could be helpful in light winds. I have a Bic Tahe 225 L

Thanks

Francone

I am waiting for somebody to come up with a modern version of this:

It's an obvious solution now that wings are much more evolved, and would have the advantage of avoiding the foil bulk and complication. Kiting seems to be destined to become a fringe sport, why on earth would you go around with 20 yard long lines when you can wing? It has all but disappeared where I sail.

The vertical mast it not something I would want to hit, while holding the wing, by the boom, above me.

Well, even with a regular mast and sail, you always hit the mast. It depends on how!
If you fell on a bare, sharp, mast tip, like a spear-head, this would be really dangerous, like a fish on a harpoon, but in the Wing-and-mast contraption the mast-tip would be connected to the wing by a universal joint, so you would never ever fall on the bare mast-tip, to be transfixed like... Saint Sebastian in the famous Pollaiolo painting.. .
It would be exactly the same as when falling off a regular board, on the the entire rig, no sharp points

Francone ..

Select to expand quote

duzzi said..

Grantmac said..
Always fun to watch Duzzi try and talk his way around the fact that foiling is the first actual revolution in water sports for +30 years. Easily as important as the first planing hull.
I frequently think he's DLee with better meds.

But really, what sort of reply is this? You don't talk to people you have not even met this way. And yes, indeed, it is a revolution, and it took 40 years to make it happen. And that, decades of work, is the case for many technological advances. And that was the point about a possible Wing Weapon re-birth. It might happen as technology improves, in the same way that it happened starting from that lovely foil contraption from 1979 with its original windsurf sail!

But I somehow think you are not interested in conversation. It is much more fun to talk trash, isn't it. Still, please learn some manners, and try to keep this forum civilized.

In my opinion, if Magruder's 40 -years-old Wind Weapon idea never took off, it was not because it required an advanced technology, like the one we have to day. Windsurfing did indeed take off , after all, even when windsurfing technology was still in its infancy., with aluminium masts, 20 kg + boards and heavy, low-tech sails..

Magruder's Wind-Weapon idea could have taken off without today's technology. It was indeed very logical, yet it didn't. Why?
The stock answer would be " It didn't work". Perhaps . But then today's windsurfers sail on a wing, which is very similar to Magruder's contraption, except he connected the wing to a mast. It wouldn't have been ( and was not. ) a very high technological leap..

When I came across Magruder's idea, I had a sense of Deja vu, because I have tried Wing sailing myself to quickly give it up due to the difficulty of keeping balance hanging from an unsupported wing. It required the skills of a tight-rope walker. I said to myself" it would be perfect if I could have a mast to lean on..."

I think that people's resistance to change and to new ideas , rather than lack of an adequate technology has plaid a decisive role in the demise of Magruder's idea.
For one thing, very few people have the resolve (and the means ) to to go through the patenting process in order to commercialize their inventions., unless one invests money in marketing and advertising,

Perhaps, short of hearing first hand from somebody who tried Magruder's contraption ( must be an old-timer, like me..,) a Windsurfing wizard can tell me in theory what is the downside of using a wing connected to a mast. Not necessary? Low performance? Security?

Thanks

Francone