Hoping somebody might have some tips on setting harness line position and also harness line length. Just getting use to the harness/harness lines but I can't seem to find a comfortable setting. Is there a more precise method to finding harness line positions or is the best approach trial and error for your various sails sizes? Would the Cribb sheet be a worthwhile purchase? Is forearm length for harness line length a good starting point? Cheers in advance!

The Cribb method is basically to have the lines 1/3rd of the way down the boom, which is a pretty good rough estimate. But for each sail try and feel if you're using more effort with the back or front arm, and if it's the back move the lines back, if the front then move lines forward. As for length, buggered if I know - there seems to be such a variety of lengths being used I suspect it might be a personal thing dependant on sailing style, length of your legs as a proportion of you body height, the position of mars in relation to saturn, that sort of thing. I use 22 inch lines, and I'm 184 cm with long legs ,and a virgo.

Not trying to hijack the thread, but on a slightly different tack.

If you find that you keep getting "accidentally" hooked back in during a gybe, are your harness lines too long? or am I doing something wrong?

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grumplestiltskin said...

Not trying to hijack the thread, but on a slightly different tack.

If you find that you keep getting "accidentally" hooked back in during a gybe, are your harness lines too long? or am I doing something wrong?

Probably doing my trick of not extending your arms enough holding the rig to close to your body

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grumplestiltskin said...

Not trying to hijack the thread, but on a slightly different tack.

If you find that you keep getting "accidentally" hooked back in during a gybe, are your harness lines too long? or am I doing something wrong?

Yep! Doing something wrong!

Ahh. I guess that is not much help...

I find the stiffness or 'swingyness' of my lines affects this. I like to have lines that 'swing' and are not too stiff, (standing out from the boom at a fixed angle).
I find with the stiff lines I get accidentally hooked up more in the gybe but I am not immune to it with the 'swingy' lines either. Again not much help I guess......

Once I unhook, I try to bend the knees and in doing this it usually helps to prevent hookup because the hook is lower than the lines.
Holding the rig oversheeted just a bit too long also increases the chance of accidental hookup for me.

go with long lines!! i used to use 24s but tried 28s and never going back. im about 173cmish but 28s are sweet, the rig feels much more distanced and controllable especially in gusty conditions.

Cheers all.... I'm finding the longer length feels much better (I have the adjustable lines for the moment) but can't seem to find a good position on the boom. So a good starting point would be about 1/3 down the boom. Will give that a try and go from there.

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ejmack said...

Hoping somebody might have some tips on setting harness line position and also harness line length. Just getting use to the harness/harness lines but I can't seem to find a comfortable setting. Is there a more precise method to finding harness line positions or is the best approach trial and error for your various sails sizes? Would the Cribb sheet be a worthwhile purchase? Is forearm length for harness line length a good starting point? Cheers in advance!

The harness line position should be where, when you are hooked in an comfortable, there is neutral sail balance. That is: if you take your hands off the boom briefly or unclasp your grip and just push your palms lightly against the boom, the sail stays pretty much in position. Note that this will often vary depending on the set of the sail which can change the centre of effort, so even with the same sail it might not always be in exactly the same spot every time you rig.

It is quite difficult to give concrete advice on length because there are so many variables.
Height of boom at head
Height of boom at clew
Angle of rake of boom
Length of your arms
Height of your hook (Seat or waist?) (High or low with seat?)
Width of the board (I use slightly longer on wider boards)
Size of sail (I use slightly longer with bigger sails)
Type of sail - wave or race?
Smooth or rough water (I use longer on smooth)
Wider or narrower apart fixing points. etc

and the BIG one: Individual idiosyncrasies!

This is why we see people of the same height using vastly different length lines...

Hows that for a qualifying statement?

But, diving right into the the controversy cauldron, I would suggest a good STARTING point is three fists apart on the boom and wrist to elbow length. Use ADJUSTABLE length lines so you can actually experiment with it and use lines that can be loosened easily so you can easily move them the get the balance right.

For what it's worth, (probably bugger-all) I have my lines 3-4 fists apart and between wrist to elbow and knuckes to elbow (30-32") depending on the sail size and flat or rough water and with a medium/low hook seat harness. Height 177cm.

check out this for some in depth detail.

www.guycribb.com/userfiles/documents/The%20Truth%20About%20Harness%20Lines.pdf

I've got adjustable....set them at max length, never found the need to adjust them in, although, my arms are reasonably long (not gorrilla long, but being 6'2", arms to match.

Full length lines give me enough to sail comfortably, but close enough to the boom to be in control when hooked in. Next time, 28fixed!

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Al McLeod said...

check out this for some in depth detail.

www.guycribb.com/userfiles/documents/The%20Truth%20About%20Harness%20Lines.pdf

I actually strongly disagree with some of the things in this sheet. It is too pedantic and does not cover many different situations and preferences. Note that I agree strongly with some as well.

""Eg: WHY HAVE THE LINES SO CLOSE TOGETHER?
Using the lines closer together makes the rig more sensitive, so you get
more feedback. That’s why all top level windsurfers never have their lines
further apart than a small handspan.""

That is a nice theory but it is not true.

A quick scan if the pictures of racers in any international magazine will show some of the top sailors with harness lines wider apart than that.
I would argue that close together makes for less sensitivity and more muscling with the arms as the hook can not be moved forward or back very far before it is out of balance. Being able to slide the hook a few CM allows better balancing as the sail C of E moves, otherwise all the change has to be absorbed by your arms. OK if you are a muscle bound Gorilla!

Also: His inference is contradictory. It seems to suggest that on the one had the rig pull should be balanced and pull even (I agree) and in another paragraph that the pull should be uneven and you should have more pull on the front arm (I disagree - this is NOT balanced).

Perhaps it is aimed more at beginners who tend to under sheet their sails in which case I can see a certain amount of sense in the advice, but otherwise it is misleading.

With the ideal rig we should be able to have the sail sheeted to the perfect angle and take our hands off the boom without it changing. Like this.....

www.seabreeze.com.au/gallery/gallery.asp?imageid=7626

www.seabreeze.com.au/gallery/gallery.asp?imageid=7627

I don't think harness line length depends on your arm length but rather the height of your boom relative to your hook height. You want to be able to hook in by just standing tall, which means the bottom of your harness lines needs to be just above the height of your hook when standing in a normal non-planing position on your board.

Your harness lines should be anchored about 6 inches apart and close to a perfect U shape. Don't try to use longer lines and spread them wide.

I use very short lines (20-22) because I sail with a low boom and I'm very tall. As a result I tend to sail with larger sails than people of comparative weight and use my legs to extend my body weight a long way out to windward to counteract the pressure in the sail. By creating more leverage and being able to use a bigger sail, I find I'm invariably one of the faster sailors wherever I sail, even though I use wave gear everywhere.

It depends on the suppleness of the leather but the lines are usually attached to rings on the side and teathered to some sort of frame ....oh damn wrong forum again

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sailquik said...

Al McLeod said...

check out this for some in depth detail.

www.guycribb.com/userfiles/documents/The%20Truth%20About%20Harness%20Lines.pdf

I actually strongly disagree with some of the things in this sheet. It is too pedantic and does not cover many different situations and preferences. Note that I agree strongly with some as well.

""Eg: WHY HAVE THE LINES SO CLOSE TOGETHER?
Using the lines closer together makes the rig more sensitive, so you get
more feedback. That’s why all top level windsurfers never have their lines
further apart than a small handspan.""

That is a nice theory but it is not true.

A quick scan if the pictures of racers in any international magazine will show some of the top sailors with harness lines wider apart than that.
I would argue that close together makes for less sensitivity and more muscling with the arms as the hook can not be moved forward or back very far before it is out of balance. Being able to slide the hook a few CM allows better balancing as the sail C of E moves, otherwise all the change has to be absorbed by your arms. OK if you are a muscle bound Gorilla!

Also: His inference is contradictory. It seems to suggest that on the one had the rig pull should be balanced and pull even (I agree) and in another paragraph that the pull should be uneven and you should have more pull on the front arm (I disagree - this is NOT balanced).

Perhaps it is aimed more at beginners who tend to under sheet their sails in which case I can see a certain amount of sense in the advice, but otherwise it is misleading.

With the ideal rig we should be able to have the sail sheeted to the perfect angle and take our hands off the boom without it changing.

i know that that is true with some racers but even antoine albeau has his lines close together. i prefer to have my lines around one third back along the boom and almost touching, with this setup i can sail with no hands for a considerable distance by bearing off slightly. however if i am sailing in overpowered conditions moving them back further takes the pressure of my backhand. cribby says that there isnt more pressure on your front hand, but more pressure than most are used to because they have their lines to far forward.

I am 6'2" with a seat harness that puts my hook a couple of inches below my navel, and even with my boom at chin height, found that shorter lines led me to either spread my hands miles wide apart on the boom, which wasn't comfortable or intuitive. The alternative was to work with bent elbows, which resulted in some serious tendon discomfort on the inside of my elbows. (Took a couple of months to go away)

Yes, as an early intermediate I was probably pulling on the boom more with my arms than I should've been, but any arm input was through a very bent elbow which is not a good thing.

Getting away from the boom more gives you more room to move and react, straightens out your elbows without giving you a crazy wide grip, and also allows the rig to be more vertical when you're leaning right out against it.

I have adjustable lines now too, and have them set at their longest setting. Still a bit short I think, but miles better for posture and elbow comfort.

With regard to spacing between the lines on the boom, I have found that close lines make the sail much more responsive to changes in the wind, and you have to be much more active in your sail control. Widening them right out makes it really easy to sail, but you need to get them centred around the right place on the boom or you end up inadvertently sailing slightly over or undersheeted because you can't feel the pressure changes in your hands as well.

1/3rd back is a good start for your front line, and then the back line a couple of hand widths behind that. Depends on your sail trim though, so you have to experiment a bit, or just suck up the difference with your arms and for-go that poserish double hand drag nonsense

A cammed sail is less prone to changes in the centre of pressure, so close is good, but a North Tonic (no-cams) that I sailed on one occasion almost killed my arms with the constantly shifting C of P before I widened the lines out.

It's probably one of those things that you find a happy medium and just go with that. 90% of the sailors out there (me included) will never notice that extra .02 of a knot that they're missing out on by not having 100% perfect trim, especially seeing as we are probably doing at least three other things "wrong" too..

As long as you're enjoying yourself and not causing any injuries or breaking stuff, I reckon that's nearly good enough!