I weigh 85 kg and sail in 12-15 knts winds on a mostly flat, or almost, lake with a Bic WindSUp. I am using a HSM 8.0 most of the time, but I' wonder whether a larger sail like a 10 or 10.5 m2 wouldn't give me a bit of extra power, and perhaps help me to reach the planing threshold.
The only thing is that I usually uphaul. I have no problems with the 8.0, but doing it with a 10 m2 may perhaps be a little harder on my back ( and I am not young either..).. I would also have to get a 490 cm mast or may be buy a longer extension to fit my 460 mast ( my current MF is 46 cm. ). Is it worthwhile in terms of additional power?

Any comments ?

Thanks

Francone

My 10m needs a 520 plus 20 extension, not sure if more modern ones would work with a 490. The 10 is not too heavy to uphaul in light winds, but if the wind pick ups to around 14-15 knts it becomes a struggle. In that case it's possible to water start or buy/ make yourself an 'easy uphaul' that will use your harness to help you.
I am not sure if your sup is wide enough to take a 10, In my view you need at least 90-95 to be comfortable with that size.

Hey Francone:

As you know, I use a longboard and a JP SLW92 with 8.x (8.0, 8.4 and 8.5) sails and a 10 meter race sail (4 cambers)
for light wind cruising I prefer the longboard with the HSM SPF 8.5 sail
when 12+ knots (about 22+ kph) i like the JP SLW92 with the 10 meter race sail
when it goes to 15+ knots the 8.x sails will do the job - on either board
however, the JP is more about planing than cruising
i do not believe you are chasing planing, but I may be wrong...
HSM makes a 10 meter SPF with one camber and rigs with a 490
the Ezzy Lion 9.5 with 2 cambers gets good reviews and requires only a 490 as well
most 10 meter sails require 520 and race sails have 100% carbon mast recommendations
and yes, an EZ-uphaul helps with larger sails
take care and enjoy the snow
ready to go on the ice with me ??
almost went today
joe

+1 Ezzy Lion 9.5m. Gets me planing about 10kts

You've gotta compare apples to apples lads, neither of your boards are comparable to the BIC windSUP for planing performance. To get my 11'6 BIC planing it needs brute force, these boards are based on an "all round" SUP shape which means rocker all the way through for small surf use. They glide pretty good but need a good bit of power to plane and you are then at the mercy of your skill level because they have no foot straps. I'm a very happy BIC windSUP owner but can safely say if you want to be planing more than gliding then you're on the wrong board Francone

A 10m on a windSUP. Tell him he's dreaming! Paddles is spot on, windSUP's are not light wind planing machines, they are light wind bimbling machines. If you really want to get going in light winds, get 2 US boxes added to the rear of the board and bolt a foil to it, or get the Naish SUP/windfoil crossover. You can easily get going in light winds with the sails you have now. Probably the same price as the 10m once you consider a new mast and boom as well.

+1

Its a SUP not a planing board. WindSUP acceptable to learn on or for cruising, it is not designed for the progression you seek Francone.

At 85kg in 12-15kn you should be able to plane on large freeride gear, like (roughly) your 8m and 130L.

Buy a cheap freeride board instead of trying to make you gear into something it isn't (same advice in your last couple of threads too i think....)

Franco has had a longboard, Bic Techno 160, SB RIO 195, Tabou Rocket 145, BIC 293 Core, Mistral COMP SST and now
the BIC WindSUP 11'6"
that was why i thought he was NOT going for planing
rather than getting a larger sail - just go out in bigger winds ??

whether a 10 meter sail works on a WindSUP or not - is beyond me
i would have thought they were meant for sails even less than 8 meters !!
however, they can FLY !!

That's nuts! No straps! And a huge board. I will have to try the EQ2 like that one day. But I will be using foot straps!

Nah, you've gotta live a little BSN

I'm 104kg and around 6 foot and have had my BIC 11'6 planing with a 7.5 sail but it was pretty sketchy when the feet start to slide a little and you're frantically wiggling them around for traction trying hard not to get launched. You're right Joe, they give you the biggest smile with a 6-7m sail in 5-15 knots of breeze, best fun ever

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westozwind said..
A 10m on a windSUP. Tell him he's dreaming! Paddles is spot on, windSUP's are not light wind planing machines, they are light wind bimbling machines. If you really want to get going in light winds, get 2 US boxes added to the rear of the board and bolt a foil to it, or get the Naish SUP/windfoil crossover. You can easily get going in light winds with the sails you have now. Probably the same price as the 10m once you consider a new mast and boom as well.

Planing is not, by far, my first priority, also because the prevailing wind conditions here ( 12-15 knts) are not sufficient for planing..
Actually I have two choices: " bimbling " around on my WindSUP or sitting on the beach waiting for Aeolus to blow his nose...

I much prefer the 1st option! Actually I am perfectly happy about my "bimbling" machine, after struggling ( and wasting money) for years with shortboards, which are no better than a drifting log in these winds.

I know that with my Bic Windsup I can easily get going in light winds with the sails I have , but I was thinking that perhaps a 10 m2 sail would have some more subplaning power and speed, without necessarily aiming at planing.
I was only concerned about the ease of handling of such a large sail, especially when uphauling..

Francone

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joe windsurf said..
Franco has had a longboard, Bic Techno 160, SB RIO 195, Tabou Rocket 145, BIC 293 Core, Mistral COMP SST and now
the BIC WindSUP 11'6"
that was why i thought he was NOT going for planing
rather than getting a larger sail - just go out in bigger winds ??

whether a 10 meter sail works on a WindSUP or not - is beyond me
i would have thought they were meant for sails even less than 8 meters !!
however, they can FLY !!

Maybe a 10 m2 won't work for some reasons on my Bic or won't make a significant difference compared to my 8 m2 HSM, but I don't see why my Bic shouldn't take more than an 8 m2 . I always thought that the larger board, the larger the sail it can take..
By the way, that video is awesome, but then with 35 knts winds no wonder that even a WindSup can fly ! Even a ..rock would....
But I definitely have not lost hope that my WindSup can plane, especially if fitted with a 10 m2 sail..

Franco

Francone, the 11'6 will plane in the right conditions but the main issue is that it's just not designed for that type of use so if planing is your goal then maybe look at some of the better performing longboards that plane easily like a Kona for example. Alternatively keep on "bimbling" around on your 11'6 with a big smile on your dial, that's what I'll be doing with mine

Did you want to go the other way and get an old Formula board and use your existing sail on that?

Despite people using 10M+ sails on them, you would be surprised how well they go with 7.5m. The width of the board and the fin get them planing in almost nothing.

I also second the use of an ezy-uphaul. If you can't buy one, make one, but it takes all the effort out of uphauling big sails. When I was using big sails I would even half uphaul to rest against the ezy-uphaul. Its good being able to rest by standing on the board against the weight of the sail.

perhaps the solution is for Franco to try my JP SLW92 with his current sail @ AAO (where he sails) - next year
with 8.x sails I use a 54 cm fin and requires starting in a little deeper water (do have a 46 tuttle too)
heck - Franco, you can try it with my MS TR-4 10.0 meter sail - just don't drop it :-)
and that combo goes with a 66 cm fin ...
in other words - we all seem to agree that putting a 10 meter sail on that BIC WindSUP is NOT ideal

To be fair, at 85kg in 12-15 knot winds, something like a big SB Futura (or similar) and your 8m should be plenty to get planning. Maybe you need a bigger short early planning board, not a 10.5m rig..........

Same as other have already mentioned, I don't think you will really make any gains by sticking a 10m on the Bic

Perhaps instead of going to a 10.5 m2 sail to improve light wind performance and increase speed on my Bic Windsup, a Formula board would be another venue for this purpose , although, I must say, neither high speed nor planing are my first priority..

My Bic windsup is already a drastic ( and quite welcome!) improvement in light winds subplaning as compared to all previous short boards. If a Formula board can further improve light winds performance, may be it would be worthwhile..

Can anybody tell me what difference would I feel in riding a Formula Board with an 8.0 sail in 12-15 knts as compared to a WindSUP? Faster? Just as stable?
One thing I like in the Bic WindSup is its exceptional stability, due to its width. This is something I wouldn' trade off easily, after years of acrobatics work on tippy short boards...I see Formula boards are very wide. This is definitely a plus for me.

I also see that Formula boards usually take extra long fins, up to 50 cm. Do they have to? This would pose a problem, because the water is very shallow around here for about 100 ft from the shore . My 35 cm regular weed fin is O.K., but more often than not it still scrapes the bottom...

Thanks for any comments and suggesions

Francone

Typical Formula fins are 70cm in depth, but they really only need those for giving you drive upwind. A shorter fin will let you reach instead of heading directly up wind.

If you are worried about the depth, you will have to use a weed fin. I will have to measure them, but I think the fin I have used is 50cm deep, but the chord length is obviously more.

have a 42 cm Lessacher from Unifiber that goes ok with JP SLW92
but that's about as short as it goes for such a wide board ...

Hi Francone, seriously I would stick with your 11'6 BIC as it is most suitable for the type of sailing you do, the weather conditions you sail in and also the location you are sailing. Sure it compromises on planing ability, but every other board will be unsuitable for the sailing you do, ie formula boards and other light wind planing type boards like a big fin which you can't use, a race board will be less stable than the BIC etc

still wish Franco would embrace the longboard world
once he gets past the "tippy" portion
those old boards slide through the waters in light wind
and can be used in a huge wind range ..
even an old BIC Dufour goes great in light winds ...
WindSUP goes about the same or ??

Francone, can I quote you?

"...perhaps help me to reach the planing threshold" and "Planing is not, by far, my first priority"

Which way is it?

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mathew said..
Francone, can I quote you?

"...perhaps help me to reach the planing threshold" and "Planing is not, by far, my first priority"

Which way is it?

Exactly what I said : by reaching the planing threshold I meant getting close to it, without necessarily getting on the plane, if the condtions ( or my skills) are not there. Nice if I could, of course, but if I am speeding along at speed X knts/hr and I need X + 3 knts /hr to plane, it would still be perfectly O.K. by me...I wouldn't have an existential crisis by being..3 knts/hr away from planing.
As a matter of fact, most of my windsurfing is done subplaning , not even close to planing, but still a lot faster(and more enjoyable) than paddling..
I was only wondering whether by rigging a larger sail, like a 9 or a 10 , I could go faster and perhaps plane. Or maybe I would be confronted with the limits of the board's design, certainly not made for speed and planing, no matter the size of the sail.. It may be a reality..

Francone

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mark62 said..
To be fair, at 85kg in 12-15 knot winds, something like a big SB Futura (or similar) and your 8m should be plenty to get planning. Maybe you need a bigger short early planning board, not a 10.5m rig..........

Same as other have already mentioned, I don't think you will really make any gains by sticking a 10m on the Bic

agreed but every time we tell him its possible to plane in 12-15kn , he seems to want to change gear anyway.
No insult Francone, but I think it is a technique thing and people have said that in your last 3 or so threads..... but you want to solve it by spending money.

Cruising - windSUP or longboard, same sails as you have

Planing - 130L ish freeride, slightly oversized quaility carbon fin (like 2cm longer than standard) and same size sail as you already have. Combined with different technique. Its not easy to learn to plane in the bottom end range for that gear, but I can think of a lot of 80kg people planing in 12-15 (without going 10m or 200L)

I think the suggestion of an old Formula is good as the older ones are quite cheap now.

what about something like a Mistral Prodigy ?? 298 cm long, 87 cm wide and 255 litres float
no better than a WindSUP ?? only $500 in town

http://2-rad.com/mistral-prodigy-b-condition/


also these boards are for rent in the Montreal area from APVM:

Starboard Go 129 L, 139 L, 155 L, 170 L
Starboard Start 180 L avec d?rive/with dagger
Starboard Gemini (planche double mat)/built for two - can be used solitaire

VoilOKA has rentals too, but are more $$$

however, for now we are under ice and snow

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Francone said..

mathew said..
Francone, can I quote you?

"...perhaps help me to reach the planing threshold" and "Planing is not, by far, my first priority"

Which way is it?

Exactly what I said : by reaching the planing threshold I meant getting close to it, without necessarily getting on the plane, if the condtions ( or my skills) are not there. Nice if I could, of course, but if I am speeding along at speed X knts/hr and I need X + 3 knts /hr to plane, it would still be perfectly O.K. by me...I wouldn't have an existential crisis by being..3 knts/hr away from planing.
As a matter of fact, most of my windsurfing is done subplaning , not even close to planing, but still a lot faster(and more enjoyable) than paddling..
I was only wondering whether by rigging a larger sail, like a 9 or a 10 , I could go faster and perhaps plane. Or maybe I would be confronted with the limits of the board's design, certainly not made for speed and planing, no matter the size of the sail.. It may be a reality.

That response still doesn't make sense -> "... existential crisis by being 3kn/h away from planing". Either you want to plane or not.

However... what you didn't mention in your first post, was that you are using a windSUP. To answer your direct question- yes... you will have more power, but you wont plane any easier (maybe you might get the board going faster another half-knot). Indeed you are hitting the limits of design -> longer waterline, narrow, curved rocker, weight. You will be able to get it to plane, with enough wind.

As others have suggested,at 15kn, 85kg and 8m sail, you just need something like a 130l board. aka:

Just had another thought too - been wondering for a while about the Yanks and Canadians here talking in mph for wind speed.

Do they mean miles per hour? or actual knots which is nautical miles per hour??? 1 mph -= 0.86 knots.

On the news here they often say the wind is 20 kilometres per hour. So I figure when the Yanks here say 15mph winds, they mean same as 15 mph in their car. The forecast there is given in mph (which of course is not nautical mph)



Is Francone confused and his 12-15 is actually mph NOT knots, and therefore much lighter wind than we think....?

Dont bother using bigger sail for windsup, enjoy the off the plane sailing & fun of using a smaller sail to improve things like heli-tacks. Most windsups i've tried suck at planing.

I have a starboard freeride "planing" windsup & even that does what i think of as displacement planing, it does plane but it isnt like planing a proper shortboard shape. It is very cool planing without straps & the crashes are more funny than hurt. The planing just picks up speed rather than having on/off planing of shortboard & you are going places up/downwind straight away not just crosswind.

I take sup down on days which are forecast to pick up so I can sail until it good for slalom board. Still I would even rather take this sup out with smaller sail than big sail & because of the reduced downforce planing isnt that much slower with even a 6.2 wavesail.

I use a 8m HSM GPS sail on a 73cm slalom board. In 12-15knots I am planing no problem (82kg) and it very relaxed sailing. 10m on a windsup would be hard work!

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olskool said..
+1 Ezzy Lion 9.5m. Gets me planing about 10kts

Awesome! What board is yours?Looks like an older longboard or perhaps displacement type of hull, which would be even more amazing that you could plane on in 10 knts.
Do you think this 9.5 sail would do just as well on my Bic WindSup? I'm trying to get it subplane a bit livelier and faster than with my current 8.0 HSM sail , without being overoptimistic about planing !
I weigh 85 kg.

Francone

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Paddles B'mere said..
To get my 11'6 BIC planing it needs brute force, these boards are based on an "all round" SUP shape which means rocker all the way through for small surf use. They glide pretty good but need a good bit of power to plane and you are then at the mercy of your skill level because they have no foot straps. I'm a very happy BIC windSUP owner but can safely say if you want to be planing more than gliding then you're on the wrong board Francone

I'm not a " plane or die.." guy although it wouldn't be unwelcome.( I'm talking about planing, of course..)

My bar is a bit low, lower than many other windsurfers's: all I am after is having some power to make the subplaning more lively( faster) than with the my current 8.0., without necessarily planing, in other words an incremental, but perceivable, speed increase, like, to use an analogy, when you are on a thread-mill, ambling at speed 4.6 and you set it at 6 or 7. Not as fast as running away from a charging grizzly bear , but a perceivable and enjoyable speed increase ( also because there is no bear..).
Is this perhaps feasible with a Bic Windsup if I put on a 9.0 sail?

Francone