i'm with chris on this one. I sail with kiters all the time and they lift their kites and know the rules pretty much.
the right of way rules on the water are simple and easy for all to understand. if a kiter or windsurfer to windward on a starboard tack decides to shoot off downwind then that's asking for trouble. like the trouble on the goldy where if the right of way rules were known the collision may not have happened.
as a group we can't just go and change the rules of the water just because we think it a better outcome. the rules are there for everyone. us, kiters saiboats etc.
the idea of kiters staying downwind of windsurfers is a concept of general sailing area. segregation. it's not a rule for when everyone is sailing together.
Select to expand quoteMacroscien said..Kazza said..
Kiters stay downwind of windsurfers so that when they jump or drop their kite and are out of control we don't get tangled up in their lines or end up like the poor guy in France. Common sense needs to be used more
+1
We are not really free to choose our own path or speed unlike power boats and even bigger sail boats.
Commonsense and general courtesy on the water plus observation of all other user behavior may help us more then strictly sticking to "right of way rules".
Sincere condolences to family of that killed windsurfer
this is a separate issue. but if, as a windsurfer, you are not free to choose your own path then get off the water or sail somewhere away from others. I mean i'm not the greatest sailor on the water but I am fully aware of how to choose my path.
TheSelect to expand quoteGestalt said..Macroscien said..Kazza said..
Kiters stay downwind of windsurfers so that when they jump or drop their kite and are out of control we don't get tangled up in their lines or end up like the poor guy in France. Common sense needs to be used more
+1
We are not really free to choose our own path or speed unlike power boats and even bigger sail boats.
Commonsense and general courtesy on the water plus observation of all other user behavior may help us more then strictly sticking to "right of way rules".
Sincere condolences to family of that killed windsurfer
this is a separate issue. but if, as a windsurfer, you are not free to choose your own path then get off the water or sail somewhere away from others. I mean i'm not the greatest sailor on the water but I am fully aware of how to choose my path.
I agree with Justin.
The "right of way rules" have been around since year dot and have applied to all types of water craft. We don't need any more rules.
If you are on port tack, then make way for any craft on starboard tack. That might mean giving more room for a kitesurfer in order to take into account his kite lines.
If you want to bear off (boosting is effectively bearing off) then you have to keep clear of anyone to leeward of you. This also applies to a windsurfer doing a jybe or bearing off on a speed run.
There is another rule that is often forgotten. It is the responsibility of all craft to avoid a collision, even though they may be in the right of way.
If you can't control your craft, then do not sail in an area where your control is critical to the safety of yourself and others. In other words, sail in an area that is not crowded. This applies equally to windsurfers and kitesurfers. For example, if my board control skills are not sufficient for me to "thread the needle" when turning on a jybe mark in a slalom race, then I choose a wider arc to avoid the possibility of collsion or obstruction. being not in control is not an excuse.
Select to expand quotesboardcrazy said..Gestalt said..
when passing you must pass port to port. **(seems this is where it went wrong)**
I don't understand this one?
All boats drive on the right hand side, so to speak. Opposite of how we drive on the roads.
It's rule #1.
I think we've all come close to a collision once or twice, no? Hell, I've nearly hit a navigation pole.
Select to expand quoteggh said..
Witnessed a head on at Shearwater a couple of weeks ago . A combination of indecision lead to a very dangerous stack.
Can I take a stab in the dark at what happened?
Windsurfer was smoking in (on port) for a gybe. Kitesurfer launched from beach (on starboard).
Select to expand quoteChris6791 said..
Its a shame this has turned into somewhat of a Kiter v Poley debate without a decent eyewitness account properly translated being put forward.
I don't think it's a debate, I think it's a discussion that's been needed so everyone knows where they stand so further incidents can be prevented. This recent incident has just brought up the reality of it all so it's on peoples minds, I don't want to be injuried from something that could have been prevented. I'm not trying to put kiters down I'm just trying to make it aware that things can happen when you least expect it in a split second.
We are still more likely to die on the road to the beach that already on the water. Possiblilty of the serious accident is also higher. Even parking space is more danger. I had my parked vehicle damaged twice already.
This is not any releif but at least poor guy lost his life doing what he love the most, not in stupid car accident than draw nobody attention.
There should be some memorial somewhere for WS, KS that lost their life on the duty. Even virtual on the net will do.
Select to expand quoteevlPanda said..
Hell, I've nearly hit a navigation pole.
Did you check ? Maybe you had the right and now you could sue the pole for damages?
Select to expand quoteMacroscien said..
This is not any releif but at least poor guy lost his life doing what he love the most,
When I go I dont want to die doing something I love, I want to die doing something I hate so I dont have to finish it.
Sad news no matter which sport you.
Select to expand quoteevlPanda said..sboardcrazy said..Gestalt said..
when passing you must pass port to port. **(seems this is where it went wrong)**
I don't understand this one?
All boats drive on the right hand side, so to speak. Opposite of how we drive on the roads.
It's rule #1.
I think we've all come close to a collision once or twice, no? Hell, I've nearly hit a navigation pole.
The "passing port to port" rule is directed only to two power driven vessels meeting on, basically, a collision course. (Colreg Rule 14(a)). With sailing vessels are approaching one another on a collision course, one on port tack and the other on starboard tack, the vessel on port tack shall keep out of the way of the other. (Colreg 12(a)(i)). There is no obligation for sailing vessels to pass port to port.
A link to the Colregs, which are the rules of the road unless there are local laws to the contrary, is here.www.collisionregs.com/MSN1781.pdf
It is important to note that there is an obligation on every vessel, kite board, sailboard, jet ski, 25000tonne container ship, even if the other vessel is meant to keep out of their way, to avoid a collision. You can't just mow someone down just because you think you have "right of way". (Rule 17(b).
Incident reports from marine collision investigations make interesting reading.
Select to expand quotebusterwa said..
I ran into the back of a 48 foot stationary cray boat
Sounds painful!
and embarassing..
There was time yesterday when official patrol boat stop and stood for almost an hour in the middle of our busy at the time WS KS spot carefully observing what everybody is doing (at Train G.C).
Since wind was about 30ktn +, that occurrence gave extra spice to our ordinary runs.
Passing mooored boat, speed limits (6 ktn) , safety devices , passing each other on every possible side could earn everybody a hefty fines.
I hope that time is not yet come for accurate law implementation and law enforcing.
With nowadays technologies video recording and speed cameras we have very little chance.
I hope that obligatory sail numbers , board registration and licensing to operate wind powered vessel will not follow INMT (in my life time) 
.
I sail at Long Reef in a southerly which is a popular spot for Kiters. I have up until yesterday had no issues at all (in 5+ years sailing there) and yesterday was purely a miss-understanding between a kiter and myself - we passed with plenty of space but only after we both headed upwind then downwind (you know the drill). After that incident we both waved to say sorry..
The biggest issues I've had at Long Reef is with a certain few sailors who seem to love charging towards you as they are heading in on a wave and I'm grovelling to get out through the lighter winds and shore dump.
Manly Council have put up signs all along the Manly beach explaining right of ways/surf etiquette. Maybe the AWA and AKSA should look into doing something similar at spots that attract a lot of windsurfers/kiters? It would also give us all an opportunity to have something to refer to if someone (windsurfer or kiter) is acting dangerously.
Select to expand quoteBenKirk said..
I sail at Long Reef in a southerly which is a popular spot for Kiters. I have up until yesterday had no issues at all (in 5+ years sailing there) and yesterday was purely a miss-understanding between a kiter and myself - we passed with plenty of space but only after we both headed upwind then downwind (you know the drill). After that incident we both waved to say sorry..
The biggest issues I've had at Long Reef is with a certain few sailors who seem to love charging towards you as they are heading in on a wave and I'm grovelling to get out through the lighter winds and shore dump.
Manly Council have put up signs all along the Manly beach explaining right of ways/surf etiquette. Maybe the AWA and AKSA should look into doing something similar at spots that attract a lot of windsurfers/kiters? It would also give us all an opportunity to have something to refer to if someone (windsurfer or kiter) is acting dangerously.
I remember back at Valentine in the 90's we used to get up to 25 sailors out. I ended up crashing into another guy..We were coming towards each other.. I altered to upwind to avoid him.. he altered upwind to avoid me .. I altered downwind to avoid him.. he altered downwind to avoid me etc , etc and crash! 
Luckily no great damage done. I think these days if that started I'd point at myself and then where I'm going to go to avoid anyone..
Select to expand quoteJohn340 said..
....
The "right of way rules" have been around since year dot and have applied to all types of water craft. We don't need any more rules.
....
Right of way rules for windsurfing and kitesurfing are an irrelevant joke. The rules are designed for slow moving craft engaged in transport or racing. They're not designed for groups of people blasting around at high speed in close quarters.
Most people have no idea of what the rules are. Those people who do know what they are describe them in meaningless terms. Port to Port? Really? Most sailors of all types have no idea what port is. Even yacht skippers stand there mumbling "There's no port left in the bottle." Does that mean port is left? or port is not left?
A simpler way of describing the anti-collision rules is "turn right". That handles all the cases, but even that will stretch people's brains. "Right is upwind. I can't go any further upwind. What do I do? Arrgh!!"
The best rules and the only rules that apply are:
1. Don't hit.
2. Don't get hit.
Those two rules can be further simplified to: Don't ruin somebody else's day.
The only problem with those rules is it requires people to take responsibility for their riding. It means you can't do the speed bullet of death through the pack just because you're having fun. You can't boost a big jump that will take you into the path of people. You have to go off and find your own piece of water to do it in.
Select to expand quotesboardcrazy said..
I remember back at Valentine in the 90's we used to get up to 25 sailors out. I ended up crashing into another guy..We were coming towards each other.. I altered to upwind to avoid him.. he altered upwind to avoid me .. I altered downwind to avoid him.. he altered downwind to avoid me etc , etc and crash! Luckily no great damage done. I think these days if that started I'd point at myself and then where I'm going to go to avoid anyone..
yer yer yer exactly what happened to me at Green Island with another windsurfer. Now I've really got the Starboard tack rules etched into my head. I have no idea which way we went first, really can't remember it was so quick. Sue I'm not sure if the pointing at yourself then to where your going works, the other guy said he was doing that to me but I was so busy trying to avoid a collision and it was all so quick I wasn't looking at his hands.
Select to expand quoteGorgo said..
Right of way rules for windsurfing and kitesurfing are an irrelevant joke. The rules are designed for slow moving craft engaged in transport or racing. They're not designed for groups of people blasting around at high speed in close quarters.
I disagree, as would anyone else who watched the recent Americas Cup. Select to expand quoteGorgo said..
Most people have no idea of what the rules are. Those people who do know what they are describe them in meaningless terms. Port to Port? Really? Most sailors of all types have no idea what port is. Even yacht skippers stand there mumbling "There's no port left in the bottle." Does that mean port is left? or port is not left?
If you don't know the rules, learn them.Select to expand quoteGorgo said..
The best rules and the only rules that apply are:1. Don't hit.2. Don't get hit.
As I said in my post, the fundamental Right of Way rule is even if you are in the right you have an obligation to avoid a collision.Select to expand quoteGorgo said..
The only problem with those rules is it requires people to take responsibility for their riding. It means you can't do the speed bullet of death through the pack just because you're having fun. You can't boost a big jump that will take you into the path of people. You have to go off and find your own piece of water to do it in.
Sadly I agree
One great thing about cold old Tassie, we don't get crowds on the water. Somehow by its self kiteboarders seem to stick to their beaches & windsurfers stick to their areas. Not often we are all sailing together.
Select to expand quoteBenKirk said..
I sail at Long Reef in a southerly which is a popular spot for Kiters. I have up until yesterday had no issues at all (in 5+ years sailing there) and yesterday was purely a miss-understanding between a kiter and myself - we passed with plenty of space but only after we both headed upwind then downwind (you know the drill). After that incident we both waved to say sorry..
Sounds like you both managed this situation very well. If you indicate your intent(to move to windward or leeward) early enough, then these missunderstandings are easily managed.
Select to expand quoteGorgo said..
Most people have no idea of what the rules are. Those people who do know what they are describe them in meaningless terms. Port to Port? Really? Most sailors of all types have no idea what port is. Even yacht skippers stand there mumbling "There's no port left in the bottle." Does that mean port is left? or port is not left?
The port / starboard rule for WS and KS is pretty simple.
If the wind is coming from the right hand side of your board, then you have right of way.
If the wind is coming from your left hand side of your board, you have to give way.
99% of WS and KS tack in and out from the shore. If you spend 1 minute, to figure out which tack you have right of way (you only have 2 to choose from - either going out or coming in) before you sail out you shouldn't have a problem.
may be its time both assoications got together and nut these potential problem out I know on Botany Bay the problem is not kiters but jet skies someone will get killed one day
Select to expand quoteJohn340 said..Gorgo said..
Most people have no idea of what the rules are. Those people who do know what they are describe them in meaningless terms. Port to Port? Really? Most sailors of all types have no idea what port is. Even yacht skippers stand there mumbling "There's no port left in the bottle." Does that mean port is left? or port is not left?
The port / starboard rule for WS and KS is pretty simple.
If the wind is coming from the right hand side of your board, then you have right of way.
If the wind is coming from your left hand side of your board, you have to give way.
99% of WS and KS tack in and out from the shore. If you spend 1 minute, to figure out which tack you have right of way (you only have 2 to choose from - either going out or coming in) before you sail out you shouldn't have a problem.
Now imagine that WS is going at port tack and KS on starboard (right of way) just in straight line for head on collision but wilt plenty distance to spare. Then WS should go down wind ( turn right) just below kiters lines according to the rules. In practice quite often is much safer to signal your intention to KS earlier and point sharp up wind so he could safely pass you down the wind...
The Port/Starboard rule is fine for those who understand it, however it it is debatable whether this rule actually works in a kite/ws context, what is more important however is the requirement of any skipper of a craft on the water to take steps to AVOID a collision, thus it is incumbent for a skipper taking off from the beach on a starboard tack to AVOID a potential collision. Even if you are on a starboard tack you could still be considered partially negligent in the event of an accident and you had better have some public liability insurance or you could be in deep ****.
Can I chime in at this point to say, please use common sense and if you see a less experienced water user (could be a kid on a kayak, or a newbie like me on a windsurfer or kite), expect the unexpected and give more room.
On the weekend, I was planing on a port tack, and another much more experienced windsurfer was on her starboard tack coming towards me. I turned to starboard, but then the wind dropped. Being a noob, I immediately tried to unhook, but only managed to head upwind towards the oncoming windsurfer. I was really glad to see that she had anticipated my stuff ups and had also given way, giving us both room for error.
Select to expand quoteGorgo said..John340 said..
....
The "right of way rules" have been around since year dot and have applied to all types of water craft. We don't need any more rules.
....
Right of way rules for windsurfing and kitesurfing are an irrelevant joke. The rules are designed for slow moving craft engaged in transport or racing. They're not designed for groups of people blasting around at high speed in close quarters.
I think the coroner would beg to differ
Select to expand quoteGorgo said..John340 said..
....
The "right of way rules" have been around since year dot and have applied to all types of water craft. We don't need any more rules.
....
Most people have no idea of what the rules are. Those people who do know what they are describe them in meaningless terms. Port to Port? Really? Most sailors of all types have no idea what port is. Even yacht skippers stand there mumbling "There's no port left in the bottle." Does that mean port is left? or port is not left?
And thats the winner of the most likely to recieve a Darwin award . Well played .
Select to expand quoteggh said..Gorgo said..John340 said..
....
The "right of way rules" have been around since year dot and have applied to all types of water craft. We don't need any more rules.
....
Right of way rules for windsurfing and kitesurfing are an irrelevant joke. The rules are designed for slow moving craft engaged in transport or racing. They're not designed for groups of people blasting around at high speed in close quarters.
I think the coroner would beg to differ
As would a Maritime Court.
Select to expand quoteGorgo said..John340 said..
....
The "right of way rules" have been around since year dot and have applied to all types of water craft. We don't need any more rules.
....
Right of way rules for windsurfing and kitesurfing are an irrelevant joke. The rules are designed for slow moving craft engaged in transport or racing. They're not designed for groups of people blasting around at high speed in close quarters.
Most people have no idea of what the rules are. Those people who do know what they are describe them in meaningless terms. Port to Port? Really? Most sailors of all types have no idea what port is. Even yacht skippers stand there mumbling "There's no port left in the bottle." Does that mean port is left? or port is not left?
.
Rubbish. They are immediately relevant as in a wavesailing situation everyone is pushing hard upwind out the back so paths cross (unlike if we were all on a reach all the time). Port - starboard is totally relevant as two people both heading upwind will need to know who will yeild. If you're on port tack you change your line or speed slightly to allow the other guy to maintain his course.
I think it is sad if anyone does NOT know the rules. You don't do away with the rules due to ignorance.
Is there anything more important than ensuring everyone goes home alive at the end of the day!!!????????
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
I think it is sad if anyone does NOT know the rules. You don't do away with the rules due to ignorance.
I think it is irresponsible if anyone does NOT know the rules.
