I'm toying with using my LT hull for local open class longboard racing. What am I giving up vs my Equipe II? The LT is definitely easier to sail. I'd be using a much bigger sail because we often have very light conditions*. Any benefit to using a raceboard fin on it?

* I appreciate the stock rig and I can make it work well in 10-15mph but we often are sailing in 4-10 mph and giving up 2.5m2 going downwind shows pretty quickly.

Smaller centerboard, quite wide, no straps and no adjustable mast track.

Are you losing because of unforced errors (ie falling in)?

Much as I love the LT I'd be hoping for a very small or shifty course to see it going anything like as quickly as my Equipe II when both had a big rig on. Personally I'd use the stock LT fin to maintain the LT's ace in the hole, which is its faster tacking.

Having said that I haven't put an LT up against a Raceboard for ages and that was just when we were in different races on the same course.

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Grantmac said..
Smaller centerboard, quite wide, no straps and no adjustable mast track.

Are you losing because of unforced errors (ie falling in)?

The centerboard is surprisingly efficient. At a glance, the appearance would make it seem like a dog compared to the big Equipe centerboards. But, think of it more like a HA foil wing compared to some older, bigger designs (say the PTM Phantasms vs the earlier Infinities).

The differences in width are moderate (5cm) and the lack of straps isn't a big deal in 20 or less. I think Chris hit the nail on the head what worked for me and points to the possible answer - the smaller fin.

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Chris 249 said..
Much as I love the LT I'd be hoping for a very small or shifty course to see it going anything like as quickly as my Equipe II when both had a big rig on. Personally I'd use the stock LT fin to maintain the LT's ace in the hole, which is its faster tacking.

Having said that I haven't put an LT up against a Raceboard for ages and that was just when we were in different races on the same course.

Our courses tend to be small and you make a good point about the stock fin. I find tacking the Equipe on par with tacking an oil tanker especially before the start. I feel like the 36 footer that I occasionally crew on has more mobility before the start than the Equipe. I know that technique is part of that but still it's frustrating.

The Equipe has at least two different centerboards available. I have the higher aspect high wind one but the windspeed where I sail that board would benefit with the greater area of the low wind version.

I think that the smaller foils of the LT will get overwhelmed by the larger sails you propose. I've put a smaller fin on my Equipe with an 8.5 and the efficiency goes out the window.

It would take a very short course with lots of shifts for the LT to be faster.

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Grantmac said..
The Equipe has at least two different centerboards available. I have the higher aspect high wind one but the windspeed where I sail that board would benefit with the greater area of the low wind version.

I think that the smaller foils of the LT will get overwhelmed by the larger sails you propose. I've put a smaller fin on my Equipe with an 8.5 and the efficiency goes out the window.

It would take a very short course with lots of shifts for the LT to be faster.

I've got the big one on mine. Generally, I wouldn't expect it to be faster but just good enough to beat some dinghies to the finish. My buddy who is an Equipe ace is going to smoke me either way.
What size fin are you using on your Equipe?

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Paducah said..

Grantmac said..
The Equipe has at least two different centerboards available. I have the higher aspect high wind one but the windspeed where I sail that board would benefit with the greater area of the low wind version.

I think that the smaller foils of the LT will get overwhelmed by the larger sails you propose. I've put a smaller fin on my Equipe with an 8.5 and the efficiency goes out the window.

It would take a very short course with lots of shifts for the LT to be faster.

I've got the big one on mine. Generally, I wouldn't expect it to be faster but just good enough to beat some dinghies to the finish. My buddy who is an Equipe ace is going to smoke me either way.
What size fin are you using on your Equipe?

44cm upright pointer, not original but fairly thick. I think something a bit bigger would work better if I was using a 9.5m

In this year's raceboard Nationals I saw an LT beat the 7 or 8 times RB World champion on s phantom with a 9.5 demon sail to the top mark in a windy race. They had a real battle and the Lt won it.

Downwind it got smoked of course due to the lack of horsepower but I was surprised and impressed by the upwind performace.

I think a softish, tight-leeched 7.5 with a fairly long boom is the sweet-spot for maximizing performance of the LT (just as it was on the Original One Design and the Mistral Superlight for that matter). I have a 7.5 HSM Speedfreak which I use only on older longboards and it works a treat. It would be faster, especially downwind, with a 9.0, but you give up the nimbleness which makes the thing more fun than an Equipe. I'd expect an LT with a 7.5, on a short course, to dominate the Equipe in very light air, but lose to an original Superlight. In the light air you're describing I think a bigger fin would be a waste of time.

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cammd said..
In this year's raceboard Nationals I saw an LT beat the 7 or 8 times RB World champion on s phantom with a 9.5 demon sail to the top mark in a windy race. They had a real battle and the Lt won it.

Downwind it got smoked of course due to the lack of horsepower but I was surprised and impressed by the upwind performace.

Thanks cammd and awalkspoiled for the input. cammd, my interest got piqued in a similar situation. Race was 10-15 and just enough wind where my light weight allowed the LT to really scoot upwind. I had to hold off the bigger sails downwind (and lost a place or two to them). If I could address the downwind issue, especially on light days. I'd be good. The stock sail has enough power combined with my weight that I plane up about as quick as the big guys if it's windier.

grantmac, using similar fin on the Equipe. I forget if it's a 44 or 46 Curtis pointer.

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Awalkspoiled said..
I think a softish, tight-leeched 7.5 with a fairly long boom is the sweet-spot for maximizing performance of the LT (just as it was on the Original One Design and the Mistral Superlight for that matter). I have a 7.5 HSM Speedfreak which I use only on older longboards and it works a treat. It would be faster, especially downwind, with a 9.0, but you give up the nimbleness which makes the thing more fun than an Equipe. I'd expect an LT with a 7.5, on a short course, to dominate the Equipe in very light air, but lose to an original Superlight. In the light air you're describing I think a bigger fin would be a waste of time.

Have to agree with your observations. Having owned a LT to use as a Raceboard substitute I tried several combinations of sail and fins. Bigger sails ( 9.5 8.5 ) really didn't work with the hull and daggerboard except in sub 8 knot conditions. Ended up using my most versatile longboard sail ( Ezzy Zephry ) with a 42-44 cm raked fin. This combo shined in 10-15 knots, and was still enjoyable and controllable when wind really picked up. Was a great board for bay cruising, but eventually had to concede the board design was to much of a compromise to really work like a dedicated longboard/raceboard.

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Downhaul66 said..

Awalkspoiled said..
I think a softish, tight-leeched 7.5 with a fairly long boom is the sweet-spot for maximizing performance of the LT (just as it was on the Original One Design and the Mistral Superlight for that matter). I have a 7.5 HSM Speedfreak which I use only on older longboards and it works a treat. It would be faster, especially downwind, with a 9.0, but you give up the nimbleness which makes the thing more fun than an Equipe. I'd expect an LT with a 7.5, on a short course, to dominate the Equipe in very light air, but lose to an original Superlight. In the light air you're describing I think a bigger fin would be a waste of time.

Have to agree with your observations. Having owned a LT to use as a Raceboard substitute I tried several combinations of sail and fins. Bigger sails ( 9.5 8.5 ) really didn't work with the hull and daggerboard except in sub 8 knot conditions. Ended up using my most versatile longboard sail ( Ezzy Zephry ) with a 42-44 cm raked fin. This combo shined in 10-15 knots, and was still enjoyable and controllable when wind really picked up. Was a great board for bay cruising, but eventually had to concede the board design was to much of a compromise to really work like a dedicated longboard/raceboard.

what's the problem? is the LT fin too small for 9m+ sails?

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Paducah said..

cammd said..
In this year's raceboard Nationals I saw an LT beat the 7 or 8 times RB World champion on s phantom with a 9.5 demon sail to the top mark in a windy race. They had a real battle and the Lt won it.

Downwind it got smoked of course due to the lack of horsepower but I was surprised and impressed by the upwind performace.

Thanks cammd and awalkspoiled for the input. cammd, my interest got piqued in a similar situation. Race was 10-15 and just enough wind where my light weight allowed the LT to really scoot upwind. I had to hold off the bigger sails downwind (and lost a place or two to them). If I could address the downwind issue, especially on light days. I'd be good. The stock sail has enough power combined with my weight that I plane up about as quick as the big guys if it's windier.

grantmac, using similar fin on the Equipe. I forget if it's a 44 or 46 Curtis pointer.

That LT is going well, but there's more power available from the stock sail than with the trim in those pics. Upwind the downhaul should be loose enough to allow horizontal wrinkles to fill the entire width of the luff panel, until one is getting overpowered. It allows a deeper shape with straighter mast, more depth and a tighter leach and is much quicker.

Apologies if the pic is misleading, but unil the rig is hard to hold down vertical luff wrinkles are very slow.

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Chris 249 said..

Paducah said..

cammd said..
In this year's raceboard Nationals I saw an LT beat the 7 or 8 times RB World champion on s phantom with a 9.5 demon sail to the top mark in a windy race. They had a real battle and the Lt won it.

Downwind it got smoked of course due to the lack of horsepower but I was surprised and impressed by the upwind performace.

Thanks cammd and awalkspoiled for the input. cammd, my interest got piqued in a similar situation. Race was 10-15 and just enough wind where my light weight allowed the LT to really scoot upwind. I had to hold off the bigger sails downwind (and lost a place or two to them). If I could address the downwind issue, especially on light days. I'd be good. The stock sail has enough power combined with my weight that I plane up about as quick as the big guys if it's windier.

grantmac, using similar fin on the Equipe. I forget if it's a 44 or 46 Curtis pointer.

That LT is going well, but there's more power available from the stock sail than with the trim in those pics. Upwind the downhaul should be loose enough to allow horizontal wrinkles to fill the entire width of the luff panel, until one is getting overpowered. It allows a deeper shape with straighter mast, more depth and a tighter leach and is much quicker.

Apologies if the pic is misleading, but unil the rig is hard to hold down vertical luff wrinkles are very slow.

Appreciate the tips. First time out on the board - I'd just picked it up the week before and rigged it up the morning of the race. I thought I'd remembered from a few years back that enough downhaul for some vertical wrinkles was okay. It had been pretty windy earlier - I was planing off between races and on some downwind legs.

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Kit3kat said..

Downhaul66 said..

Awalkspoiled said..
I think a softish, tight-leeched 7.5 with a fairly long boom is the sweet-spot for maximizing performance of the LT (just as it was on the Original One Design and the Mistral Superlight for that matter). I have a 7.5 HSM Speedfreak which I use only on older longboards and it works a treat. It would be faster, especially downwind, with a 9.0, but you give up the nimbleness which makes the thing more fun than an Equipe. I'd expect an LT with a 7.5, on a short course, to dominate the Equipe in very light air, but lose to an original Superlight. In the light air you're describing I think a bigger fin would be a waste of time.

Have to agree with your observations. Having owned a LT to use as a Raceboard substitute I tried several combinations of sail and fins. Bigger sails ( 9.5 8.5 ) really didn't work with the hull and daggerboard except in sub 8 knot conditions. Ended up using my most versatile longboard sail ( Ezzy Zephry ) with a 42-44 cm raked fin. This combo shined in 10-15 knots, and was still enjoyable and controllable when wind really picked up. Was a great board for bay cruising, but eventually had to concede the board design was to much of a compromise to really work like a dedicated longboard/raceboard.

what's the problem? is the LT fin too small for 9m+ sails?

It's not so much the size of the fin, but the fact that in light wind you're not putting much lateral pressure on the fin itself. The lateral resistance comes from the leeward rail and the centerboard, and the fin offers some stability but minimal lift and definitely drag. The LT and other simpler longboards win out tactically because they're so nimble, tacking and jibing basically in their own length, and the big sails make for cumbersome turns. They also press the nose down and if there's any chop the board can get sluggish.

Hi all

I saw yesterday the Raceboard Nationals are having a division for LT's with stock centreboards and (I think) fins, but with sails up to 9.5 SqM.
Could be interesting? ;)

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Jethrow said..
Hi all

I saw yesterday the Raceboard Nationals are having a division for LT's with stock centreboards and (I think) fins, but with sails up to 9.5 SqM.
Could be interesting? ;)

I note it's called Windsurfer GT division. Looks fab to me!

The new class insignias

LT: <
GT: >


Someone I am acquainted with has ignited a firestorm in the class with a proposal for a class division based on bigger sails. He's approx 100 kg so not a surprise that he's pushing this. There's a big fear of diluting the one design nature of the class.

It'll be interesting to see how the GT division does.

just put together LT + Ezzy Zephyr 7.5 + Unifiber Freeride 36 combo
will see how it goes with my 95kg and gusty conditions

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Jethrow said..
Hi all

I saw yesterday the Raceboard Nationals are having a division for LT's with stock centreboards and (I think) fins, but with sails up to 9.5 SqM.
Could be interesting? ;)

That's a good compromise. People who want to use big rigs have now got a venue and the OD class isn't going to be disturbed.

I can sort of understand those who want big sails, but IMHO they should not attack one of the very few success stories in our sport by demanding the LT class change to suit their personal desires. One of the people pushing the big rig writes about the class management in a pretty negative way, implying that their expertise in the class and in making it one of the biggest success stories in the sport should be ignored and that they should just roll over to a pressure group.

People like me don't get to change the LT class to suit our desires, and neither should they, because if everyone gets to change the class to suit their own wishes then it's no longer a one design class. If they can get a bigger sail because they want one then why can't I get a bigger centreboard because I want one? If the 110kg guy wants a 7m2 sail then why can't the 60kg sailor get a 5.1 in ultra-light cloth with carbon boom?

The Kona class had different sails for each weight category. As soon as the LT turned up the Kona basically died straight away. The tribe has spoken. Creating a separate event is a much better idea.

If you sail lots of different boats with different crew weights, and lots of different boards, you can get the feel of how weight affects performance. There's a damn easy yardstick most of the time - if weight is your problem then you will excel in some conditions. If you are 100kg and not leading to the first mark or close to it with dry hair (apart from spray) when it's blowing dogs and most people are falling over, then technique is your problem and not weight. If you are light and you're not in the front group at the first mark in 8 knots, then technique is your problem and not your weight. If you are medium in weight and not consistent, then technique is your problem and not your weight.

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Chris 249 said..

Jethrow said..
Hi all

I saw yesterday the Raceboard Nationals are having a division for LT's with stock centreboards and (I think) fins, but with sails up to 9.5 SqM.
Could be interesting? ;)

That's a good compromise. People who want to use big rigs have now got a venue and the OD class isn't going to be disturbed.

I can sort of understand those who want big sails, but IMHO they should not attack one of the very few success stories in our sport by demanding the LT class change to suit their personal desires. One of the people pushing the big rig writes about the class management in a pretty negative way, implying that their expertise in the class and in making it one of the biggest success stories in the sport should be ignored and that they should just roll over to a pressure group.

People like me don't get to change the LT class to suit our desires, and neither should they, because if everyone gets to change the class to suit their own wishes then it's no longer a one design class. If they can get a bigger sail because they want one then why can't I get a bigger centreboard because I want one? If the 110kg guy wants a 7m2 sail then why can't the 60kg sailor get a 5.1 in ultra-light cloth with carbon boom?

The Kona class had different sails for each weight category. As soon as the LT turned up the Kona basically died straight away. The tribe has spoken. Creating a separate event is a much better idea.

If you sail lots of different boats with different crew weights, and lots of different boards, you can get the feel of how weight affects performance. There's a damn easy yardstick most of the time - if weight is your problem then you will excel in some conditions. If you are 100kg and not leading to the first mark or close to it with dry hair (apart from spray) when it's blowing dogs and most people are falling over, then technique is your problem and not weight. If you are light and you're not in the front group at the first mark in 8 knots, then technique is your problem and not your weight. If you are medium in weight and not consistent, then technique is your problem and not your weight.

I agree Chris the people involved in getting the LT class established should be congratulated.

Any changes to the current formula should be done with caution as the LT is a great class

Was there much of the same discussion when the Laser went to different sized rigs? I know the M rig was around for ages, but the 4.7 and radial must have been a boost to numbers.
as a heavy weight a bit bigger rig just let's you hang comfortably in the harness and power upwind abit better on those marginal 6 to 12 knot days that tend to occur on race days. I have no doubt I will still get smashed by the good guys on standard rigs, but a bigger rig may attract heavier sailors as a result of a nicer sailing experience?
perhaps 85 or 90 kg cut off for eligibility for a bigger rig?

I think kids and women can use the small sail already can't they.
just out of interest, what VYC would you give a LT with a raceboard sail?

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nev said..... on those marginal 6 to 12 knot days that tend to occur on race days. ...

Not disagreeing with your general points but something that must be understood in this conversation is that there are a lot of places that those aren't marginal conditions, not by a long shot. If we had that yearly at our big to-do, we'd be very, very happy. Too many years of just getting in one pump fest in 3-5 just to have a result. Presently in a two week slump (summer here), of max 4 kt winds and heavy afternoon thunderstorms.

A Severne Mach or Overdrive 7.8 rigged with little downhaul and negative outhaul and with a smaller 160-220 carbon boom should feel not too big and still pull like a horse.

And pair it with a carbon 50 Z fin or 50 carbon Lockwood fin. Both should add tons of lift for better early planing.

If you are not planning on entering competitions who cares about what sail and components you use.

Re Windsurfer GT at the raceboard nats. This is at my club, I was part of the planning discussion. This is about adding to the fun and numbers for the RB crew. The local LT guys (there's a lot of us) have access to a variety of rigs in the club so it's a way for us to join in and maybe even give the race boards a nudge in the right conditions.
In other words and to be clear, this is not an experiment to see if there's interest in changing the LT's rig for normal class racing.

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nev said..

I agree Chris the people involved in getting the LT class established should be congratulated.

Any changes to the current formula should be done with caution as the LT is a great class

Was there much of the same discussion when the Laser went to different sized rigs? I know the M rig was around for ages, but the 4.7 and radial must have been a boost to numbers.
as a heavy weight a bit bigger rig just let's you hang comfortably in the harness and power upwind abit better on those marginal 6 to 12 knot days that tend to occur on race days. I have no doubt I will still get smashed by the good guys on standard rigs, but a bigger rig may attract heavier sailors as a result of a nicer sailing experience?
perhaps 85 or 90 kg cut off for eligibility for a bigger rig?

I think kids and women can use the small sail already can't they.
just out of interest, what VYC would you give a LT with a raceboard sail?

While I understand that the big guys want more power, just about everyone in every type of board would, in a perfect world, have the design modified in some ways. I'm a medium weight but in my perfect world the LT would have a 6.8m sail, still short battened and tight leached, and maybe be narrower. Others may like everyone to be on a 5m rig. Some prefer a skinnier shape, some prefer a fatter shape, some want straps and a mast track. Some would pay for a carbon board, most wouldn't. We all have to accept that no popular one design can be perfect for all of us. Having a separate group racing with the RBs seems OK and as we agree, changes should be done with great caution.

I haven't raced against RBs on an LT or seen results with times for such events. The RBs seem to have easily beaten some of the world's best LT sailors when they met at Lake Cootharaba SC recently, which one would expect. The photos indicate that it was probably perfect conditions for the RBs in terms of comparative speed - in the pics the 9.5s normally seem powered up and in marginal to full planing whereas the LTs seem to be struggling to plane as you'd expect given the lightish winds. If you contacted Josh from the Qld association, who was there, he could perhaps help.

Way back when, we used the official old Australian Sailing yardsticks for NSW interclub events and they worked surprisingly well. Those old yardsticks put the "Open Class" yardstick at 93 which seems pretty harsh and encompassed D2s and extended D2s racing under giant rigs and then the sailors switching to RBs in a breeze. The (sadly extinct) Raceboard 7.5 class at 102 for lights and 104 for heavies, and the old Windsurfer OD at 112 light and 116 heavy, with heavies getting the lightweight handicap in winds over 15 knots.
From memory of handicapping at my old club I'd say the 9.5 RBs should be about 95 and we've often just averaged the weight classes to simplify things. The adults hybrids (RSX, Prodigy) were rated something like 102 and Technos and Kona with IMCO 7.3 110-ish I think.

So in terms of percentage of the RB 9.5s could be on 100%, any 7.5/7.3m2 Raceboards on 0.92 and the LTs on say .85 since while they are much faster on a planing reach than the Windsurfer One Designs, they are not that much quicker for lights or mediums on triangles most of the time. The differentials change enormously depending on conditions and skill so the accuracy can only be checked over time and varied racing among top sailors.

Are the yardsticks you refer to Portsmouth numbers or something similar?
We're guessing blindly where I am because of the lack of good handicap numbers especially in fleets mixed with dinghies.