Considering many windsurfers believe that there are many more dangerous incidents since kiting arrived on the scene what are the solutions? (With no nasty comments or abuse)

The causes as I see it:

Windsurfing has always involved an instructional course in which right of way was covered a lot, and concepts like port and starboard tack were discussed (maybe kite courses do too?). Instructors needed to be qualified by the Royal Yachting Association so there was that influence too. The gentlemanly yachting give way type stuff was a big influence (all very tweed jacket and cigars I know but anyway...)
After a couple of years on the river or lake a windsurfer may venture out in the ocean and after a good season of that they then may go in proper waves.
Kiters, however, seem to progress to the ocean very fast and after a few sessions they are capable of going out in the smaller wave spots. Perhaps some of them have not been kiting long enough to have acquired some ROW knowledge and certainly no wave ROW rules like 1st on the wave owns it etc.

Further, a few years ago most windsurfers had a yachting or surfing background. Kiting however, being the latest and greatest and trendy, perhaps attracts many newbies who have none of that experience and it doesn't cross their mind that there may even be rules?

Solutions?

Courses need to cover lots of ROW stuff. (Maybe they do, I dunno. If they do, it is not apparent by real world behaviour I see)
Experienced kiters need to tell the noobs and correct their errant behaviour
Sticky thread on the kiting forum with ROW rules?
Maybe the kite schools need to run a cheap short 'getting out in the waves course' in which they harp on about wave riding ROW as distinct from normal flatwater ROW?

just my $0.02

We need Zena on this one

with 36 735kms of australian coastline, we can have shares or we could buy shares or we could fight to the death [}:)] over which bit of safety bay belongs to which kitesurfer or which windsurfer where and when and who can sail where and how high and how fast and for how long for how fast on which bearing and how much of the water around him is his, and the fact that BOTH windsurfers and kitesurfers arent always aware of there surroundings....

is zoning then the only solution??

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poor relative said...

We need Zena on this one

mmmmmmmm zena.....

I would suggest people come and kite/windsurf in tassie - never had a bad experience here. Of course, if they did, then maybe I would...

I personally find being out with windsurfers challenging. For very good reasons, windsurfer rules state the outbound vessel has right of way. ie underpowered for getting out through the white water.

Kiters: the outbound kiter should stay out of the way of the one on the wave.

So when outbound windsurfer meets incoming wave-riding kiter, the expectations of both are boogered.

In a place like Tassie, I just clear out to find a different bit of beach. I think if I were in a more crowded place, I would very quickly get sick of eternally being subservient, and be prepared to assert what I see as my "right of way" occasionally (flame suit on for the purposes of the visit to the windsurfer forum).

And top be honest, even here on one occasion I have been frustrated. 8 km long beach, group of windsurfers, couple of kiters. I intentionally stayed down wind the entire time - which would be fine, except that the group of windsurfers gradually moved down the beach, forcing me ever further from the adoring crowds/cameras . No angst, but I did find myself wishing they could sort themselves out and stay in the one place

In seriousness, I don't believe that courses ever change behaviour. They cost a lot of money, and demonstrate that a problem is being taken seriously. But they seldom achieve anything concrete

Geez Brady, you've got some balls for making those comments!

Many kiters on our local beaches (North of England) are ex windsurfers, or do both. They know the rules and understand the problems. We mostly coexist in harmony.

The problem is that the good kiters (and there are many) have more scope in surf. They change direction instantly and do massive airs. Neither are they slower than us windsurfers.

Near misses come from misjudgements on their parts, especially in big jumps because of the huge area they and their strings take up.Even the best can't always predict how far they are going to travel. A good friend nearly landed on my head when he was unexpectedly caught out. He was as panic stricken as I.

Of course they shouldn't do it amid crowds, but human nature being what it is they are always going to be showing off their skills. Realistically we windsurfers have to surf defensively in the presence of kites. Unfair perhaps but the only other answer would be segregation. That wouldn't necessarily mean different places because we all want to in the best surf spots. It would more likely mean different days! That I wouldn't like!

I guess if you want to surf, kitesurf, windsurf by yourself its pretty easy in Tasmania, If you want to share the spot with others that’s pretty easy too, you just have to COMMUNICATE. If you are a local at a spot then its pretty easy because you are going to run into the same people again and again and SPEAK to them. If you are a visitor then you have to work out how you fit in, who is getting what waves and claim your share, enjoy the stoke… or move on.

Mostly there aren’t to many windsurfer beginners riding waves, they just don’t make it out past the whitewater.

The last two wavesailing nationals in Tasmania were judged by Kitesurfers so its definitely possible for us to get along.

Agreed Al. Glad I'm not the only one who doesn't hate them. (Though windsurfing is my passion.)

Hi all , i also think courses or rules wont help . maybe a guide [like 1st on the wave gets it ]
as a newbi kiter and experienced sailboarder, i think some simple courtousy and collision avoidance is the order of the day.
at the goldie we all enjoy the water together , sure we get in each others way ?and theres some haters .but mostly all good
being a newbi i get in everyones road more , and once going have limited control [over 20 kn].i know my limits and do my best to keep out of the road of all users
with more traffic i think we all need to give way more [just not at the same time though!!]
ps thanks again to the sailboarder who saved my board from certain loss. 2 or 3 times too !!! i asked if i could buy him beer too .
i think he helped me because he could see me doing my best to avoid an incident

mrgob you sound right there .that would be sketchy as!!got to be carefull.

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Mark _australia said...
....
The causes as I see it:

Windsurfing has always involved an instructional course in which right of way was covered a lot, and concepts like port and starboard tack were discussed (maybe kite courses do too?). Instructors needed to be qualified by the Royal Yachting Association so there was that influence too. ...

Maybe that's your problem right there. I don't know of any windsurfer ever who has gone through a formal series of instruction with ROW rules and all that. At best you get a couple of hours of instruction, buy your gear and away you go.

Perhaps your expectations are just wrong.

As far as I know there are only two rules:
1. Don't hit.
2. Don't get hit.

Start from that point of view and the world gets a lot simpler and conflict is much easier to avoid.

(Actually I do know the boating rules and I've got a licence to prove it. They're a load of bollocks in a recreational freeride context.)

Once you get the basics down there's etiquette and good manners to include. The rules there are very simple:
1. Wait your turn
2. Don't ruin anybody else's day.

Trying to ride anything in the sea with a sense of entitlement is just asking for upset and anger. When in doubt, turn around and go the other way. It's easy. There's heaps of ocean and heaps of waves, especially if you have a sail or a kite to power you to them.

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Gorgo said...

Mark _australia said...
....
The causes as I see it:

Windsurfing has always involved an instructional course in which right of way was covered a lot, and concepts like port and starboard tack were discussed (maybe kite courses do too?). Instructors needed to be qualified by the Royal Yachting Association so there was that influence too. ...

Maybe that's your problem right there. I don't know of any windsurfer ever who has gone through a formal series of instruction with ROW rules and all that. At best you get a couple of hours of instruction, buy your gear and away you go.

Perhaps your expectations are just wrong.

As far as I know there are only two rules:
1. Don't hit.
2. Don't get hit.

Start from that point of view and the world gets a lot simpler and conflict is much easier to avoid.

(Actually I do know the boating rules and I've got a licence to prove it. They're a load of bollocks in a recreational freeride context.)

Once you get the basics down there's etiquette and good manners to include. The rules there are very simple:
1. Wait your turn
2. Don't ruin anybody else's day.

Trying to ride anything in the sea with a sense of entitlement is just asking for upset and anger. When in doubt, turn around and go the other way. It's easy. There's heaps of ocean and heaps of waves, especially if you have a sail or a kite to power you to them.

OK maybe I'm living in the past! Now it is easier to learn on decent gear perhaps they don't get much instruction, but when I learned in 1989-90 the course was 9hrs and there was a lot of ROW stuff and instructional books form the library were borrowed and shared around.

I agree with the last part entirely - wait your turn and don't ruin anyone else's day. Spot on! If we all did that all the time wouldn't things be wonderful?
I find because kiters don't have to wait their turn (can turn on a dime) the temptation is there to take every single wave. maybe not instruction required - just heads up on ettiquette by the experienced crew?

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Mark _australia said...
....
OK maybe I'm living in the past! Now it is easier to learn on decent gear perhaps they don't get much instruction, but when I learned in 1989-90 the course was 9hrs and there was a lot of ROW stuff and instructional books form the library were borrowed and shared around.

...

I learned in '83 when a mate and I sneaked off from work and had a go at St Kilda.
Step 1. Have a one hour lesson and fall off all the time.
Step 2. Try again and find myself planing and tacking and not falling. Yeehaaa! I can windsurf!
Step 3. Buy a wally windsurfer, ride it for 3 months, tackle everything on a 12' board and a 5.7m sail.
Step 4. Buy a 9' floater and go "wave jumping"
Step 5. ... Repeat step 4 ad infinitum with various sizes and styles of boards.

I tried calling starboard on a yacht once and they ran me down with instructions to "F_ck off!" That was in 1983 and the last time I tried any ROW stuff (except on yachts in navigation channels in the Gippsland lakes).

BTW There were calls to ban windsurfing in the '80s because they were blasting around too fast in swimming areas. That's why those big signs are up in the popular windsurfing spots.

tossers are in all sports...land, water, air.....the incidents you all refer to are minimal in the whole scheme of things, and always get alot of unnessesary publicity(much like Clarky and Bingle break ups) who gives a sh!t?...my guess..no-one.

Talk to the few tossers that don't honour the rules, and if they continue, F....them up!

Easy!

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stabber said...

Talk to the few tossers that don't honour the rules, and if they continue, F....them up!

I think you have hit it on the head. It comes down to attitude. I think 95% of water users have a good attitude.

My little (freeride) sailing group talked about this thread a few weeks ago. We came to the same conclusion.
Lucky for us is that when this does happen (be it a windsurfer or kiter), we just sail 500m down the coast. So, we are lucky in that respect, we can do that.