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What are the benefits of Cammed sails

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Created by sboardcrazy > 9 months ago, 6 Jul 2012
Beaglebuddy
1595 posts
11 Jul 2012 4:37AM
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Victor B said...

Beaglebuddy said...

According to that logic the "lift" would pull you directly downwind.


No it doesn't.

I'm simply saying have a look at a wing and a cammed sail and do some research.

I'm not saying I am an expert. My reply was expressing a general opinion in relation to cam vs no cams.

If you want to get down to tin tacs speak to a sail designer. I was simply providing an opinion and an analogy to explain it.

No animosity or 'trolling' on my part. See ya.

I'm not getting the analogy between a sail and an airplane wing, the wind is coming from 90 degrees different direction and the sail is angled 90 degrees different to the horizon.
Sure some wind is approaching the sail from the front like an airplane wing but that is a result of the propulsion wind from the other direction.
An airplane wing does not have all the wind pressure coming straight upward from the ground towards the sky.

andrew c
NSW, 39 posts
11 Jul 2012 2:10PM
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i think i have worked it out...

maybe you are right and all of the sailmakers, professional windsurfers, speed record holders etc have been wrong all these years.

or

maybe aerodynamics do make a difference with the performance of a foil.

oldie
VIC, 356 posts
11 Jul 2012 5:34PM
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Maybe all those advanced thinkers have finally had a look at reflexed foils.
They should provide more range in a sail.
I am thinking now of an ultralight that can descend almost vertically due to fully reflexed tips....

Waiting4wind
NSW, 1871 posts
11 Jul 2012 7:13PM
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Beaglebuddy said...

Victor B said...

Beaglebuddy said...

According to that logic the "lift" would pull you directly downwind.


No it doesn't.

I'm simply saying have a look at a wing and a cammed sail and do some research.

I'm not saying I am an expert. My reply was expressing a general opinion in relation to cam vs no cams.

If you want to get down to tin tacs speak to a sail designer. I was simply providing an opinion and an analogy to explain it.

No animosity or 'trolling' on my part. See ya.

I'm not getting the analogy between a sail and an airplane wing, the wind is coming from 90 degrees different direction and the sail is angled 90 degrees different to the horizon.
Sure some wind is approaching the sail from the front like an airplane wing but that is a result of the propulsion wind from the other direction.
An airplane wing does not have all the wind pressure coming straight upward from the ground towards the sky.



It's not really an analogy as such, both the sail and wing have the same design principle. Any air moving past the sail / wing will create a difference In pressure from one side to the other as the air has to travel further around the curved side. The sail will be forced to move due tothe difference in pressure. You will harness that energy to drive your craft in the direction you need to move.

Check the pic of vando in the slalom board post, link below) shows a nice profile of the sail / wing in motion.
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&REPLY_ID=1064504&TOPIC_ID=100368&FORUM_ID=8

seanhogan
QLD, 3424 posts
12 Jul 2012 4:12PM
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just went out for a quick session, 18knts, took my firerace and 6.7 hellcat (no cam) was all good, top speed, except in the lulls/dulls (?) where I lost my plane....

Wouldn't happen (or not so fast ) with a cammed sail.

But gybing was a breeze and waterstarts too

powersloshin
NSW, 1848 posts
12 Jul 2012 4:26PM
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..... both the sail and wing have the same design principle. Any air moving past the sail / wing will create a difference In pressure from one side to the other as the air has to travel further around the curved side. The sail will be forced to move due tothe difference in pressure....


I have never understood how this pressure difference can explain why an aircraft can fly upside down, if anyone knows the answer please let us know

shear tip
NSW, 1125 posts
12 Jul 2012 4:59PM
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I saw a video a little while ago where they fired short bursts of smoke trails over a wing in a wind tunnel and they proved that the air doesn't meet up at the trailing edge.

swoosh
QLD, 1929 posts
12 Jul 2012 5:33PM
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powersloshin said...




..... both the sail and wing have the same design principle. Any air moving past the sail / wing will create a difference In pressure from one side to the other as the air has to travel further around the curved side. The sail will be forced to move due tothe difference in pressure....


I have never understood how this pressure difference can explain why an aircraft can fly upside down, if anyone knows the answer please let us know




from xkcd.com


amasci.com/wing/airfoil.html
www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/how-wings-really-work

this may help.

Waiting4wind
NSW, 1871 posts
12 Jul 2012 5:49PM
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powersloshin said...




..... both the sail and wing have the same design principle. Any air moving past the sail / wing will create a difference In pressure from one side to the other as the air has to travel further around the curved side. The sail will be forced to move due tothe difference in pressure....


I have never understood how this pressure difference can explain why an aircraft can fly upside down, if anyone knows the answer please let us know





Maybe they can only fly upside down for a limted time before they hit the ground!

I gues the flappy things on the wing would help to change the shape of the foil.

kato
VIC, 3515 posts
12 Jul 2012 5:51PM
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powersloshin said...




..... both the sail and wing have the same design principle. Any air moving past the sail / wing will create a difference In pressure from one side to the other as the air has to travel further around the curved side. The sail will be forced to move due tothe difference in pressure....


I have never understood how this pressure difference can explain why an aircraft can fly upside down, if anyone knows the answer please let us know




Increased angle of attack,not an efficient use of the foil but will still provide lift. Try sticking your hand out the car window and increase and decrease the angle of attack ,more lift/less lift with a poor foil (Hand dependant)


oldie
VIC, 356 posts
15 Jul 2012 9:11PM
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So, given that the "suck' of a cammed (or panel shaped RAF) sail is much more than it's direct wind pressure, can a windsurfer sail drive upwind if it is perfec tly flat? ?

decrepit
WA, 12832 posts
15 Jul 2012 7:35PM
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Well I've never tried it, but I can imagine it would be awfully twitchy. angle of attack is going to be very critical, too much = instant stall, too little = not enough lift, and there's probably only a degree or so between the 2.
I wouldn't like having to rely on it, stuck downwind somewhere.

decrepit
WA, 12832 posts
15 Jul 2012 7:40PM
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Beaglebuddy said...

>>>>>

I'm not getting the analogy between a sail and an airplane wing, the wind is coming from 90 degrees different direction and the sail is angled 90 degrees different to the horizon.
Sure some wind is approaching the sail from the front like an airplane wing but that is a result of the propulsion wind from the other direction.
An airplane wing does not have all the wind pressure coming straight upward from the ground towards the sky.



Nuh, apparent wind comes from the front. If stationery, the sail is sheeted out and only gets sheeted in as speed increases and apparent wind moves forward. So the flow over a sail is very similar to an aircraft wing, maybe the angle of attack on the sail is a little higher, but I suspect not all that much.

cammd
QLD, 4359 posts
15 Jul 2012 10:27PM
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It depends on what point of view your looking from but from what I can see the evidence points to the greater the number of cams in a sail is directly proportional to the greater profit margins achieved from selling them.

needsalt
NSW, 385 posts
15 Jul 2012 10:53PM
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I don't suppose anyone has any thoughts or info on the likely top end speed differences between a wave sail, RAF freerace, and cammed slalom sail in smaller sail sizes??

I have a 5.5 crossover sail that I will keep for waves, but wondering about getting a 5.7 freerace sail (hellcat) for more speed on flatwater. Would there be little top end speed difference in smaller sizes/higher wind, or still worth it?

mathew
QLD, 2143 posts
16 Jul 2012 10:15AM
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cammd said...

It depends on what point of view your looking from but from what I can see the evidence points to the greater the number of cams in a sail is directly proportional to the greater profit margins achieved from selling them.


I dont think you have thought through that statement... so let me expand your knowledge.

Lets break down the differences between a freeride sail and a race sail:
- there is about a 10x increase in complexity when designing a CAM'ed sail
- carbon battons vs fibreglass
- CAM's
- higher skin tension in CAM'ed, requires better materials
- more material... ie: usually bigger sail sizes
- you dont sell as many CAM'ed vs RAF, eg 1:10 to 1:50
- you have to give away about a quarter of them to your sponsored riders, with another quarter getting them at-cost
- RAF designs haven't changed much over the years, while CAM'ed have changed dramatically

I think you will find that the only reason brand develop race sails, is to win races... for publicity for the brand.

cammd
QLD, 4359 posts
16 Jul 2012 11:17AM
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^^^ +1 agreed was said tongue in cheek

mr love
VIC, 2421 posts
16 Jul 2012 4:32PM
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Matt, you forgot the R&D costs race sails vs wave sails. Race sails way more complex and way more hrs burned getting them right.

mathew
QLD, 2143 posts
17 Jul 2012 12:36AM
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mr love said...

Matt, you forgot the R&D costs race sails vs wave sails. Race sails way more complex and way more hrs burned getting them right.


indeed - that's where the 10x came from... I do know that it can be 50-100x, but most people wont believe that.

evlPanda
NSW, 9207 posts
17 Jul 2012 4:56PM
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powersloshin said...




..... both the sail and wing have the same design principle. Any air moving past the sail / wing will create a difference In pressure from one side to the other as the air has to travel further around the curved side. The sail will be forced to move due tothe difference in pressure....


I have never understood how this pressure difference can explain why an aircraft can fly upside down, if anyone knows the answer please let us know



Most of the lift is from plain old angle of attack/force. Think paper airplane.

The rest of the lift comes from viscosity. Air is like a liquid, a bit sticky, kinda. The curve over the top of a wing lifts the sticky stream of air upwards, and the wing with it.

Also magnets.

What I like about windsurfing: I'm always sailing upwind. It's magic.


byronmc
NSW, 508 posts
17 Jul 2012 9:52PM
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Now you have a cambered sail you will never look back. As stated non cam is like a hybrid 3 cylinder electric compaired to the V8 of a cambered sail. It will be faster more stable and easier to sail "when theres wind". negative not many slightly heavier but generaly cambered sails have beter masts that are lighter which outways this.
Enjoy the new ride and do some PBs.

sboardcrazy
NSW, 8296 posts
18 Jul 2012 9:49AM
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byronmc said...

Now you have a cambered sail you will never look back. As stated non cam is like a hybrid 3 cylinder electric compaired to the V8 of a cambered sail. It will be faster more stable and easier to sail "when theres wind". negative not many slightly heavier but generaly cambered sails have beter masts that are lighter which outways this.
Enjoy the new ride and do some PBs.


Great profile shot! Hows the foot going? You haven't missed much!



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"What are the benefits of Cammed sails" started by sboardcrazy