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Forums > Windsurfing General

What are the benefits of Cammed sails

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Created by sboardcrazy > 9 months ago, 6 Jul 2012
sboardcrazy
NSW, 8292 posts
6 Jul 2012 2:49PM
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I know the disadvantages.
What are the benefits? I've just bought one mainly because I could get a 100% carbon mast + sail to suit for a price to suit my budget. It will be my lightwind sail so there shouldn't be too much chop - 5 - 18kts.

paddymac
WA, 941 posts
6 Jul 2012 1:09PM
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More stable foil means the centre of effort moves less and therefore you don't have to fight the rig as much. Also maintains shape in lulls better.

Pointman
WA, 437 posts
6 Jul 2012 1:27PM
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More grunt

Non-cammed V cammed is like comparing a 4 pot to a V8.

Plus what Paddy said...greater stability = wider wind range. Typically you can hold down much larger cammed sails in the same strength breeze than non-cammed.

That also means more speed

Bender
WA, 2236 posts
6 Jul 2012 2:14PM
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Cammed sails need to be powered up. IMHO in 5knts you may be better off with Rotational sail as a cammedone will feel heavy.

Cammed sails are loads more stable so yon can use bigger sizes in higher winds. for eg

In 25knts the ideal non cammed sail size would be in the 4.5-5.5m range while a 6-7.5m cammed sail would be fine

sboardcrazy
NSW, 8292 posts
6 Jul 2012 4:46PM
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Bender said...

Cammed sails need to be powered up. IMHO in 5knts you may be better off with Rotational sail as a cammedone will feel heavy.

Cammed sails are loads more stable so yon can use bigger sizes in higher winds. for eg

In 25knts the ideal non cammed sail size would be in the 4.5-5.5m range while a 6-7.5m cammed sail would be fine


Cripes!
I wont be aiming to sail in 5 kts. That's just for the times I drive 1hr for a sail and the winds dropped and I'm desperate..

felixdcat
WA, 3519 posts
6 Jul 2012 3:32PM
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Bender said...

Cammed sails need to be powered up. IMHO in 5knts you may be better off with Rotational sail as a cammedone will feel heavy.

Cammed sails are loads more stable so yon can use bigger sizes in higher winds. for eg

In 25knts the ideal non cammed sail size would be in the 4.5-5.5m range while a 6-7.5m cammed sail would be fine


????? Extreme Kite surfing wind?????

Beaglebuddy
1595 posts
6 Jul 2012 3:35PM
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Perhaps someone can explain something to me that never made sense.
When it is claimed that because a cammed sail holds it's shape it is therefore better in a lull, how can the sail holding it's shape be of any benefit if there is no wind to propel you?

Haircut
QLD, 6491 posts
6 Jul 2012 5:39PM
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^ maybe because of the apparent wind?? (during the lull if you are still moving forward, there is some air which flows over the aeroplane wing foil shape, generating lift, which helps propel you along?)

FormulaNova
WA, 15090 posts
6 Jul 2012 3:43PM
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Beaglebuddy said...

Perhaps someone can explain something to me that never made sense.
When it is claimed that because a cammed sail holds it's shape it is therefore better in a lull, how can the sail holding it's shape be of any benefit if there is no wind to propel you?


In my opinion, its because with a non-cammed sail it takes the initial gust to actually form the shape of the sail, to then use the power.

Alternatively, it could be that the initial gust, working on a slightly different shape, changes the centre of effort of the sail momentarily, whereas the cammed sail is already locked into the correct shape.

In my personal experience, I went on a trip to Dahab, where I found the wind to be very gusty. Unfortunately the place I hired gear from had all wave/cross-over sails unless you used a 8.0m or 8.5m. I preferred to use the larger sails in strong wind, than use the 'twitchy' smaller sails in the very gusty wind. It was much nicer, and easier to tune the sails for too much power than put up with the on/off/on/off feel of the smaller non-cammed sails.

I have used non-cammed sails in steady wind, and in that case, I am not sure I would have picked much of a difference.




Haircut
QLD, 6491 posts
6 Jul 2012 5:53PM
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sboardcrazy said...

I know the disadvantages.
What are the benefits?


gives you an excuse for not doing tricks

Beaglebuddy
1595 posts
6 Jul 2012 4:33PM
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FormulaNova said...

Beaglebuddy said...

Perhaps someone can explain something to me that never made sense.
When it is claimed that because a cammed sail holds it's shape it is therefore better in a lull, how can the sail holding it's shape be of any benefit if there is no wind to propel you?


In my opinion, its because with a non-cammed sail it takes the initial gust to actually form the shape of the sail, to then use the power.

Alternatively, it could be that the initial gust, working on a slightly different shape, changes the centre of effort of the sail momentarily, whereas the cammed sail is already locked into the correct shape.

In my personal experience, I went on a trip to Dahab, where I found the wind to be very gusty. Unfortunately the place I hired gear from had all wave/cross-over sails unless you used a 8.0m or 8.5m. I preferred to use the larger sails in strong wind, than use the 'twitchy' smaller sails in the very gusty wind. It was much nicer, and easier to tune the sails for too much power than put up with the on/off/on/off feel of the smaller non-cammed sails.

I have used non-cammed sails in steady wind, and in that case, I am not sure I would have picked much of a difference.






Hmm, perhaps the surge of wind during a gust is distorting the profile of the non cammed sail while a cammed sail with it's extra battens is more steady.
So it's not really about the lulls but more about handling the gusts?

jsnfok
WA, 899 posts
6 Jul 2012 5:59PM
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stability

Mr. No-one
WA, 921 posts
6 Jul 2012 6:29PM
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You'll find the cam sail has a more locked in feel. The draft is very stable so can use a larger sail therefore producing more power and drive. The non cam sail has a limited top end while the cam sail seems to have another gear up it's sleeve. Saying all that, I prefer non cam sails when mucking around in the ocean but cam sails are by far the best in protected waters for maximum speed and comfort.

joe windsurf
1482 posts
6 Jul 2012 6:43PM
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also, size does matter
over 7-oh I prefer cambered sails
under that size - non
and as stated - in bigger steadier winds you don't need the cams as much
for my size/weight my 6.3 is used in 30 to 50 kph ie about 20 knots
those winds may be gusty, but they are also strong with few lulls - typically

my pros for cambered sails ?
works great on longboard as well
can rig it with the leech fairly tight and big pocket for grunt n pull
also, as mentioned - range
my 8-oh cambered has more range than my 8.5 RAF did
and slides through lulls - especially on the longboard
btw lull does NOT mean NO wind :-)

dinsdale
WA, 1227 posts
7 Jul 2012 12:25AM
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Beaglebuddy said...

Perhaps someone can explain something to me that never made sense.
When it is claimed that because a cammed sail holds it's shape it is therefore better in a lull, how can the sail holding it's shape be of any benefit if there is no wind to propel you?

There is never no wind at all in the outdoors world.

sboardcrazy
NSW, 8292 posts
7 Jul 2012 7:06AM
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Haircut said...

sboardcrazy said...

I know the disadvantages.
What are the benefits?


gives you an excuse for not doing tricks




No worries there.. I'm not capable of any anyway.. although I used to be able to duck gybe in the 90's and I was watching a video on how to do them last night and thaought maybe....maybe not

sboardcrazy
NSW, 8292 posts
7 Jul 2012 7:09AM
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dinsdale said...

Beaglebuddy said...

Perhaps someone can explain something to me that never made sense.
When it is claimed that because a cammed sail holds it's shape it is therefore better in a lull, how can the sail holding it's shape be of any benefit if there is no wind to propel you?

There is never no wind at all in the outdoors world.




?? what about when it's glassy?

Beaglebuddy
1595 posts
7 Jul 2012 7:14AM
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If there is any wind it should propel a cammed or noncammed sail equally IMO, so I don't really understand the claim that that the cammed sail helps you thru the lulls.
Perhaps when a sail is flat and a sudden gust fills it up the sudden surge of power can overpower you?

slalomfreak
NSW, 304 posts
7 Jul 2012 1:15PM
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cammed =F22 Raptor
non cammed=Kitty Hawk

dinsdale
WA, 1227 posts
7 Jul 2012 8:00PM
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sboardcrazy said...

dinsdale said...

Beaglebuddy said...

Perhaps someone can explain something to me that never made sense.
When it is claimed that because a cammed sail holds it's shape it is therefore better in a lull, how can the sail holding it's shape be of any benefit if there is no wind to propel you?

There is never no wind at all in the outdoors world.

?? what about when it's glassy?

Refer to my previous post Even when it's glassy there's still air movement, which is after all, what wind is. It's as close as you'll ever get to perpetual motion. However, whilst that's correct, you certainly can have too little air movement to be of any use to a windsurfer. Having raced sailing dinghies for many years, no matter how glassy the water is you can still make headway.

Victor B
WA, 130 posts
8 Jul 2012 1:10AM
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Beaglebuddy said...

If there is any wind it should propel a cammed or noncammed sail equally IMO, so I don't really understand the claim that that the cammed sail helps you thru the lulls.
Perhaps when a sail is flat and a sudden gust fills it up the sudden surge of power can overpower you?


Look at aircraft wings and you might get the point. Compare them to flat sheets of tin and you will see what the difference is.

Beaglebuddy
1595 posts
8 Jul 2012 6:31AM
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Victor B said...

Beaglebuddy said...

If there is any wind it should propel a cammed or noncammed sail equally IMO, so I don't really understand the claim that that the cammed sail helps you thru the lulls.
Perhaps when a sail is flat and a sudden gust fills it up the sudden surge of power can overpower you?


Look at aircraft wings and you might get the point. Compare them to flat sheets of tin and you will see what the difference is.

A sail holding it's profile in a lull would seem to offer more air resistance for moving forward compared to a flat sail.
Is it that the profiled sail can capture some wind even during a lull while the flat sail allows the wind pass over and around it without it being transferred into power?

kpb
QLD, 239 posts
8 Jul 2012 9:38AM
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From what I read cammed sails sound like a good idea for the newer sailors wanting bigger sails as well.

Waiting4wind
NSW, 1871 posts
8 Jul 2012 9:57AM
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@ beagle - Do a web search on how an aircraft wing works, this will explain the concept. The shape of the sail crates a difference in pressure between one side and the other so the the sail wil move to the area of lower pressure.

I believe that we owe the design to the ancient Egyptians and the feluca sail.

Waiting4wind
NSW, 1871 posts
8 Jul 2012 10:05AM
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kpb said...

From what I read cammed sails sound like a good idea for the newer sailors wanting bigger sails as well.


Not necessarily, crammed sails are a little harder to rig and tune and more challenging to gybe.

Having said that some of the new sails rotate effortlessly so you feel little difference in the gybe. I had a NP H2 for a while and you really didn't even feel the cams rotate in a gybe whereas some rails sails are a totally different story.

sboardcrazy
NSW, 8292 posts
8 Jul 2012 2:11PM
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Waiting4wind said...

kpb said...

From what I read cammed sails sound like a good idea for the newer sailors wanting bigger sails as well.


Not necessarily, crammed sails are a little harder to rig and tune and more challenging to gybe.

Having said that some of the new sails rotate effortlessly so you feel little difference in the gybe. I had a NP H2 for a while and you really didn't even feel the cams rotate in a gybe whereas some rails sails are a totally different story.

Cammed sails can be generally heavier to uphaul and waterstart and you sometimes need to pop the cams the right way to fill the sail and waterstart when you have it in the air. I sometimes fall in on the end of the gybe before having rotated the sail so thats why I need to jerk the sail to pop the sail it into the right shape for the wind . Thats tiring especially if its a big heavy sail.

Victor B
WA, 130 posts
9 Jul 2012 8:41PM
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Beaglebuddy said...

Victor B said...

Beaglebuddy said...

If there is any wind it should propel a cammed or noncammed sail equally IMO, so I don't really understand the claim that that the cammed sail helps you thru the lulls.
Perhaps when a sail is flat and a sudden gust fills it up the sudden surge of power can overpower you?


Look at aircraft wings and you might get the point. Compare them to flat sheets of tin and you will see what the difference is.

A sail holding it's profile in a lull would seem to offer more air resistance for moving forward compared to a flat sail.
Is it that the profiled sail can capture some wind even during a lull while the flat sail allows the wind pass over and around it without it being transferred into power?



Its not about reducing air resistance from forward movement. It's about the Lift generated by the shape of the sail. Without going into masses of explanatory wording - just google wing air flow and you will probably see different diagrams showing how wing shapes create greater lift. Now consider this lift to be what 'pulls' a windsurfer - by using a vertical wing rather than a horizontal one.

In terms of lulls, zero wind = zero resistance anyway.

Beaglebuddy
1595 posts
10 Jul 2012 5:35AM
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According to that logic the "lift" would pull you directly downwind.

oldie
VIC, 356 posts
10 Jul 2012 4:34PM
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An aircraft wing for low speeds has a very thick, forward profile.
Yet to sail upwind we tighten the outhaul, thus reducing the profile.
Who is screwed up here, the windsurfer or the aircraft designer?

Waiting4wind
NSW, 1871 posts
10 Jul 2012 7:11PM
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oldie said...

An aircraft wing for low speeds has a very thick, forward profile.
Yet to sail upwind we tighten the outhaul, thus reducing the profile.
Who is screwed up here, the windsurfer or the aircraft designer?


We're probably traveling a little slower than an aircraft, so that would probably make a difference.

BeagleB a sail may create motion In a particular direction on it own but connected to board and fin and input from the rider allows you to harness that power into the required direction.

The more I think about it the more it amazes me how we get so much performance from our gear.

Victor B
WA, 130 posts
10 Jul 2012 9:00PM
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Beaglebuddy said...

According to that logic the "lift" would pull you directly downwind.


No it doesn't.

I'm simply saying have a look at a wing and a cammed sail and do some research.

I'm not saying I am an expert. My reply was expressing a general opinion in relation to cam vs no cams.

If you want to get down to tin tacs speak to a sail designer. I was simply providing an opinion and an analogy to explain it.

No animosity or 'trolling' on my part. See ya.



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"What are the benefits of Cammed sails" started by sboardcrazy