I don't speak German but I have used a Turbo and the NP twin and both were great. With a narrow luff pocket compared to the race sails but a deeper profile than most camless sails they do have a niche.They are also lighter than the more race oriented sails.

I have an older model Naish Redline 6.5M. (Twin cam sail) By far my favourite sail for blasting around in anything over 20 knots on my 112lt slalom board. The draft is well forward and it seems to have a wide range. Its fast, light and easy to use. Unfortunately I can't justify replacing it.

I have used NP twin cam sails for years and currently have a 7.7 and a 6.7 Hornet. My 5.7 is a no-cam Hellcat and every time I use the Hellcat I wish I'd bought a 5.7 Hornet as well. IMO the twin cams guarantee earlier planing, but the biggest advantage is staying on the plane through the lulls. Also, it is a fallacy that twin cam sails take longer to rig, I find it easier and quicker to rig the twin cams because the profile is set automatically with less guess work and more margin for error with the amount of downhaul needed.

sorry, I just realised this thread is not about twin cam vs no cam, my apologies

You're fortunate, where I sail the wind is never that consistent, no matter the wind strength it fluctuates a couple of knots + and -

maybe I should clarify the original question, comparison is about 2 cam vs the no cam free race sail of the same manufacturer. For example Turbo vs NCX, Hornet vs Helcat

I think the size is an important factor in the selection too.
I like the Turbo 7.5 very much as it get's me going earlier. The 8.5m is also on my wish list.

But I don't use it much on the open ocean, where I rather use the sails without cams (don't quite have the NCX, but nevertheless).

My take would be, NCX to 6.5m - 7m, and Turbo beyond?

I wouldn't say they were dead in the water, but.... I don't see a need unless your talking big sails and you don't want to haul a boat anchor around!

I have recently owned/own both 2 cam/no cam, in both Sev & Ezzy the 2 cam has deeper profile so will allow you to go off the wind more and in theory obtain higher speeds than a no cam, other than that in 7m and down I didn't see any performance difference that outweighs the extra hassle of the cams, the 2 cam's certainly have that more 'solid locked in' feel akin to a race sail, but in the 7m an down no real benefit...no cam easier to gybe, rig, water start= more time sailing.

The 'low down grunt' I think depends on the no cam one is comparing to...an Ezzy Cheetah has massive bottom end, especially when you know how to rig it right, the NCX not as much, but I'd say the NCX is a slightly faster sail, its a flatter profile seems to just keep getting faster the more its pushed, where as the ezzy keeps you in control at the high speed end, owned a Hellcat and it had no bottom end at all, twitchy as, no joy, and its not a Brand thing as I have owned NP RAF (fancy old school word for no Cam!) sails in the past and they were awesome, so I guess bottom line is the brands differ a bit in feel and their performance bias.

I rigged my 2 cam the other day (and it is easy to rig for a cammed sail) and I still cursed and swore at the extra time and mucking around compared to the no cam.

I guess the question and story about the need for two cam gets back to what type of sailing you are doing,,,fun blasting or serious want to break GPS records, the race sail is the tool for the latter a no cam for the former...which leaves a 2 cam??? Perhaps just a great feature to make a more stable foil for large freeride sails.

In the words of George Orwell

2 cam good
4 cam bad
No cam worse ( unless it blowen over 20)

Have owned a lot of 2 cam free ride and no cam sails over the years. Best and reasonably current I have sailed is the NP H2 - Not letting it go for a long time!

JonesySail said..

I guess the question and story about the need for two cam gets back to what type of sailing you are doing,,,fun blasting or serious want to break GPS records, the race sail is the tool for the latter a no cam for the former...which leaves a 2 cam??? Perhaps just a great feature to make a more stable foil for large freeride sails.

I agree with this. I like full-on race sails if I go full-on. But if I don't, a no-cam is preferable.

Regarding the low-end, I get planing as early with my 7m2 no-cam as i can with my 8m2 V8.
The difference is that the V8 can hold down a slalomboard, which the no-cam can't. But, I would prefer a full-on race sail to the v8 any day.

I don't see a need for the free-race cammed sails, because the no-cams really have gotten amazingly good in all the aspects, where two-cams used to excell.

33frupus said...

barn said...

33frupus said..
In the words of George Orwell

2 cam good
4 cam bad
No cam worse ( unless it blowen over 20)

All sails are equal, but some sails are more equal than others..


Comrade Barn in Green Island a few years ago, I'll take the Turbo over the NCX. Same light weight but still has the cams.

All comrades are free to choose as they please,
As long as it pleases me
Hornet good hellcat bad

Can you elaborate re Hornet & Hellcat. Size & yr of the sails. I ask as I am looking at both in a 5.7,6.7,7.7 size spread. Currently on Rydes and 118l JP board.
Cheers

BSN101 said..

33frupus said...

barn said...

33frupus said..
In the words of George Orwell

2 cam good
4 cam bad
No cam worse ( unless it blowen over 20)

All sails are equal, but some sails are more equal than others..


Comrade Barn in Green Island a few years ago, I'll take the Turbo over the NCX. Same light weight but still has the cams.

All comrades are free to choose as they please,
As long as it pleases me
Hornet good hellcat bad

Can you elaborate re Hornet & Hellcat. Size & yr of the sails. I ask as I am looking at both in a 5.7,6.7,7.7 size spread. Currently on Rydes and 118l JP board.
Cheers

Can you provide some feedback on the Rydes?

the question of the OP seems to really be oriented towards ...
comparing sails of the same manufacturer - freeride vs freerace vs race

some freeride are so good - why bother with the freerace or race ??
the Severne NCX and Sailworks Retro are examples

with MauiSails I have used freeride, freerace and race in the 8.0-8.5 m² range
if i am to use cambers, i prefer the wide luff race sail
do not like rigging narrow luff camber sails and I break the battens
leave the leech too tight, not enough downhaul and outhaul

if i think i may drop a sail due to chop, etc I prefer a freeride sail
easier to uphaul, waterstart, etc

In the 8.x range - The sail that has the biggest range ie soft sail (without stopping to tune) is the HotSailsMaui SpeedFreak 8.5
I felt the only weak point was perhaps the low grunt factor
They @ HSM are also talking about adding one camber to help lock in the shape
Am also not sold on their PVC window - stretchy and cold sensitive ...

here is my 2 camber vs race sail discussion
joewindsurfer.blogspot.com/2012/09/wide-luff-vs-free-race-sails.html

and freeiride vs 2 camber sail discussion
joewindsurfer.blogspot.ca/2011/08/maui-sails-pursuit-vs-ms-2.html

sonny2727 said...
Hi All,

Doing some research to find a powerful sail for 110 (69cm) slalom board. Read few tests about twin cam sails
(german surf mag for example
http://www.surf-magazin.de/test_technik/test/segel/freeridesegel/severne-turbo-81-gegen-ncx-80/a6873.html)

compared to free race version. It seems there's marginal or no benefit in going for a twin cam. Top end is actually better on a free race version. Only benefit seems to be bottom end but if your sail pumping technique is good this is not a benefit as well.

I'm surprise by how many shops stock twin cams and people using them if this is the case, what am I missing here?

I've got 6m NCX and 7, 7.5,&8.6 turbo's. Love all of them. When the 7m turbo is up for replacement I will strongly consider replacing it with the ncx but not the bigger ones due to the better low end grunt and slightly extra stability the cams give. At the end of the day speed is more down to the sailor than the gear they are using so go with what you feel more comfortable with.

McSailing said..
Hellcat, twitchy, centre of effort keeps moving arround.

I'm thinking of getting some Hellcats mainly because I've a NP mast to put them on.

What mast were you using to find them twitchy? (I hate twitchy)