My mate Ant aint got the gutts to go for loops, Ive abused him and tried to get him to go for it, but at the end of the day, He`s a big fairy,
He talks thew talk, but wont walk the walk- and talks cheap.
Anyone got any advice how I can get him to do it!

You could try ridiculing him and calling him a big fairy on a popular public windsurfing forum, that might work.

Hi mate, here's a few previous threads that you can pass onto him

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=45330

and

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=42133

"The Big Fairy" has just called me, telling me how his mate, Skipper, has just broke his foot going for pushies, now thats commitment! So he`ll be out of action for a while, at least he can walk tall, although on crutches. The big fairy reckons hes having some technical problems, where he`s looking forward rather than backwards when he initiates the forward. I reckon the only problem he`s got is verbal bu*****t spewing out of his mouth. Keep up the good work fella`s I think the message is getting through and he can`t reply because, everyone will know who he is. Ha Ha!

You basically have two types of people to consider here when determining the best way to attempt the first forward. The Hunters and the Gatherer's. Real men would be classified as the Hunters. Gatherer's are the less brave (more suited to gathering berries and stuff) so we will start with that method first (aka the way of the Pussy). I'm not sure which category your mate fits in so have described them both below.

Option 1 - Learning forwards the pussy way when none of your mates are watching.
Firstly, dont even think about your first attempts as being a forward (it definitely wont be). However, if you want to start simple and almost guarantee you wont get hurt then start with really small jumps and do more of a horizontal rotation rather than a proper full forward (the proper forward will come later once you have started to shed the fury coat and wiskers). All you need is a small jump, big enough to get your board and fin out of the water.

You definitely need to grab the boom with your back hand about a foot further down than you normally hold it. Fact is, if you dont put it back around a foot further down the boom then you cant get enough leverage to pull the back of the sail far enough towards you to make sure you do a horizontal rotation rather than an end over end forward. Keeping your hands where they normally go is only for Option 2 - The Hunters.

So for the average pussy, it's actually opposite to what you would probably like to hear. You really do have to commit and pull as hard as you can with your back hand. As long as you have done a small jump even over the chop, you will get safely pulled around in basically the same fashion as a proper forward loop but horizontally with little risk of injury to you or your gear. Once you have got past that initial fear of something going wrong you will realise they are one of the easiest moves to do. Stay unhooked and even if you bail half way around you will just fling across the water on your back and your board and sail will go the opposite direction. Some people recommend looking backwards over your back hand shoulder. That might help to determine when to sheet out with your back hand and stop the rotation as your board comes back into contact with the water.

The other way (Option 2 below) should be considered the correct way to attempt your first forward especially if your mates are around.

Option 2 - For the Hunters
Wait till it's 25+ knots. Find the biggest waves you can (3/4 mast high at absolute minimum) and make sure you can get plenty of speed in the run up prior to hitting the wave on your way out. To be sure, even use a size bigger sail than you would normally use for the conditions. This ensures you get plenty of lift when you hit the lip. You also want to be bearing away slightly to get maximum speed and also it helps commit into that forward motion. The closer the wave is to breaking the better as you will get more vertical height and you should definitely stay hooked in. You will not get the maximum height if you are unhooked when hitting the wave. The jump needs to have you at least 5 mtres in the air before commencing the forward (4m roughly for the mast to swing directly below you and say 1 mtr tolerance for error). It is after all your first attempt so you dont want the tip of your sail to dig into the water half way round. I would still recommend staying hooked in even at this point as that way you will have less option of pulling out half way round. You will probably also want to learn how to do it one handed at some point so you also dont want to start with bad habits by unhooking. Make sure you keep your hands where you normally put them to avoid any horizontal spin (Option 1 describes the pussy method of horizontal spin forwards) Once at your maximum hight in the jump, pull in with your back hand and push slightly with your forward hand. The sail should now be fully powered up and pull direcly forward in a rapid spin towards the water. This is the commencement of a Hunters end over end forward. Dont close your eyes (also pussy), and when you next see the horizon try sheet back out and stop the rotation.

When it comes to the landing, dont even think about that on your first attempt. The object is to get a full end over end rotation. What will be will be and even the pro's stuff up the landing occasionally and it will look good. If you must think about it, try and remember that you have basically three options.
1. Landing flat on your back from 5 mtrs in the air because you sheeted out too early or didnt have enough height. A thick wetsuit helps for this landing.
2. Over rotating and landing very flat. 95% chance of creasing your board, smashing your face against the boom and spraining at least one ankle. A new board with warranty is essential for this landing.
3. The perfect tail first landing and sail off.

Disclaimer for the Hunters method.
Landing 1 & 2 will be the main landing types experienced for at least the first 30-70 attempts. Try to stick with Landing 1 as the primary method to avoid unnecessary coin being spent on gear and medical supplies. The occasional Landing 2 is however necessary to clearly learn where the boundaries are on either side of the perfect landing.

Excellent advice there, "TerryNorth", I think I have established, the big fairy, is a Gatherer (pussy), rather than a hunter.
If I can just get big fairy to think, your option 1, is the hard way to learn, and your option 2, is the safe and easiest way of learning.

This would make everyone happy!, especially if you was there to witness it.

So how are your forwards Axit?

watched a loop learner tried for option 2 hunters approach, except the wind was more like 30 and the wave face was only shoulder high,,,, he easily got the the hight and unfortunatley chose option 2 on the landings..

he broke his jaw on the mast; snapped his boom and went through the sail

never had any desire to try one since ,

fully fledged; life long member of the pussy club

I am a huge fan of the any test of bravery as a proof of manliness (particularly if its on TV). I love one-upmanship of the hunter group. But you aren't really a dude unless you have built a huge tower out of bamboo tied some vines around your legs and leaped off.

Al

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hoop said...

So how are your forwards Axit?

My loops are good, I learnt on the toilet, from a magazine article, and everytime I had a dump, I would practise my manouever. Then went to the beach tried option 2, a couple of times, which left me, gathering berries and firewood for quite some. Eventually settleing for option 1, but made it even easier by chop hopping and landing nose first, to get some rotation. My problem is landing. Never landed one clean. I always seem to land in a sitting position.
Ive since moved on with my toilet manouveres, going for doubles, pushies, and I`m working on table top forwards, but I think I`m gonna have to get a bigger bathroom.
So, in the bathroom, I`m a definate hunter- balls of steels, but, at the beach more of a gatherer of berries, worried when the toilet roll is getting low!

Ive got balls of steel

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TerryNorth said...


Option 2 - For the Hunters
Wait till it's 25+ knots. Find the biggest waves you can (3/4 mast high at absolute minimum) and make sure you can get plenty of speed in the run up prior to hitting the wave on your way out. To be sure, even use a size bigger sail than you would normally use for the conditions. This ensures you get plenty of lift when you hit the lip. You also want to be bearing away slightly to get maximum speed and also it helps commit into that forward motion. The closer the wave is to breaking the better as you will get more vertical height and you should definitely stay hooked in. You will not get the maximum height if you are unhooked when hitting the wave. The jump needs to have you at least 5 mtres in the air before commencing the forward (4m roughly for the mast to swing directly below you and say 1 mtr tolerance for error). It is after all your first attempt so you dont want the tip of your sail to dig into the water half way round. I would still recommend staying hooked in even at this point as that way you will have less option of pulling out half way round. You will probably also want to learn how to do it one handed at some point so you also dont want to start with bad habits by unhooking. Make sure you keep your hands where you normally put them to avoid any horizontal spin (Option 1 describes the pussy method of horizontal spin forwards) Once at your maximum hight in the jump, pull in with your back hand and push slightly with your forward hand. The sail should now be fully powered up and pull direcly forward in a rapid spin towards the water. This is the commencement of a Hunters end over end forward. Dont close your eyes (also pussy), and when you next see the horizon try sheet back out and stop the rotation.

When it comes to the landing, dont even think about that on your first attempt. The object is to get a full end over end rotation. What will be will be and even the pro's stuff up the landing occasionally and it will look good. If you must think about it, try and remember that you have basically three options.
1. Landing flat on your back from 5 mtrs in the air because you sheeted out too early or didnt have enough height. A thick wetsuit helps for this landing.
2. Over rotating and landing very flat. 95% chance of creasing your board, smashing your face against the boom and spraining at least one ankle. A new board with warranty is essential for this landing.
3. The perfect tail first landing and sail off.

I'm going out to buy a GPS now......meeeeooowwww

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Sailhack said...

I'm going out to buy a GPS now......meeeeooowwww

Probably just as ballsy! (not going out and buying a GPS, but going fast!!!)

I'd prefer the gathering berries approach (aka. the way of the pussy) - practice by my self until I have the move sorted. Then next time out with the mates tell them I'm about to attempt my first forward.

A quote from Peter Hart;

"The forward loop – technically the easiest move in windsurfing (FAR easier than a small board tack) and yet the hardest to go for."

Is that a barrel roll or a forward ?

Barrell roll - Start rotation as soon as leave the water. Requires 1/2 a steel ball

Forward loop - Gain altitude then rotate. Requires 1 steel ball

Stalled forward - Reach peak of jump (Stall), then rotate. Requires 4 steel balls.

Then after 15 years you will have a stuffed ankles, knees, back and shoulders, and require a walking frame to get around to support the weight of those steel balls.

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whippingboy said...

Is that a barrel roll or a forward ?

Barrell roll - Start rotation as soon as leave the water. Requires 1/2 a steel ball

Forward loop - Gain altitude then rotate. Requires 1 steel ball

Stalled forward - Reach peak of jump (Stall), then rotate. Requires 4 steel balls.

Then after 15 years you will have a stuffed ankles, knees, back and shoulders, and require a walking frame to get around to support the weight of those steel balls.

I think we need to standardise the scoring.

Barrel Roll - surely an accidental move when trying a forward because leaning back to far and your sail is basically horizontal to the water rather than mainly upright as you pull in hard. The balerina flip over the top of the mast which stayed basically in the same position - 1/2 a plastic berry sized ball.

Forward Horizontal type loop, some touching of water with any part of yourself or the kit before landing cleanly on your board with a mainly horizontal spin - 1 plastic berry ball

Forward with semi horizontal spin - no touching of water during the move - 1.5 plastic berry ball.

Forward end over end vertical spin with a touch of the sail tip in the water - 1 steel ball

Forward with semi horizontal spin more than 5 mtrs in the air -1 plastic berry ball for the horizontal spin and 1 steel ball for the height.

Forward end over end perfect vertical spin with 5-7 mtrs height - 2 steel balls

Double forward with semi horizontal spin 5-7 mtrs - 2 plastic berry balls for the two pussy spins (ha ha) and 1 steel ball for height

Single Forward 10+ mtrs in height - 2 steel balls

4 steel Balls (platinum gold plated) reserved for the Double end over end forward with 10+ mtrs height. Title of King "Golden Gonads" Hunter can be given to the person who executes this move and posts the video or sequence camera proof on here.

Maybe we will have to get the hat around and put up some prize money. ha ha.

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TerryNorth said...
Single Forward 10+ mtrs in height - 2 steel balls

F*&%, I stuffed this one up. Clearly a 3 steel ball manouver.

quite a few brisbane based people doing them now which is awesome. almost everytime i sail up that way there is someone who has learnt to do them, and seems they learnt them just in the last 18 months

they're being made to sound harder than they really are, anyone who can chop hop can have a go whether your on 100litre board or 60litre board blah blah, and if you can learn them in 30cm chop, they're twice as easy off a wave in the surf. The tip of your sail will cop a hiding on early attempts, so using a fragile race sail is probably not recommended. I learnt them with a 30cm fin on a 100litre board and 5.8 sail off boat wakes that i could hit heading slightly down wind.

Doing a planing forward might take a bit longer to master, but most will conquer the basic rotation in a session which is all you need to get over the initial scareyness, and once you do, they are one of the few flattish water moves that are actually more fun to do when you are seriously over powered

Hey Haircut. I think you may have missed the bit where the description for getting the title of "King Golden Gonand Hunter" is only for people who can do a double fully vertical end over end forward getting height of more than 10 metres off the top of a wave. Simple end over end forwards of 5-7 mtr only gets the 2 steel ball prize. Although there is definitely plenty of people who can do these, I have never seen any footage of anyone even attempt one of the double end over end that alone come close to landing one. There are a few guys that have landed (kind of) a double forward by doing more of a semi horizontal type spin.

sorry guys, i didn't read all the thread. i thought everyone was hyping them up

yeah i agree. i like robert terrytowlings ones in his yellow bic board days where he goes right to the apex of his jump and virtually does 2 endos. best looking doubles ever i reckon i think i'm happy to stay as a so called gatherer or queen of the golden nipples

loops might be a dime a dozen in WA land, but here in seq they're currently still a novelty as only a handfull attempt them - but their numbers are finally starting to grow as with the overall skill/ability level. not sure why it's taken so long for it to happen, but qld always been known to be a bit sloooooooooow

What about you Terry ? Lotta talk happening here.
(No I dont do them, and yes it is embarrassing)

freestyle moves are cooler anyway hoop

The young guns at coronation, are going for triples!
Are these dudes too young to handle their balls?

Like young chicks with a massive rack! [}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)]

Hey Hoop. There's no "Golden Gonads" here. 2 bruised black ball from lots of heavy landings in a swat position cause I kept getting injured taking the full force of the landings standing up. Around 20 broken boards in the first few years of attempting end over end forwards and over rotating just that little bit (unfortunately no-one told me the way of the pussy gatherers method as a way to start). 10 years later i can no longer run cause my knees a completely shot, one ankle has hardly any movement. I've smashed my face on the boom more than 5 times from loosing my grip on the landing but still being hooked in.

It's funny but this thread started with Axit wanting advice on how he can get his mate Ant to do a simple forward. I certainly learnt the hard way and I reckon I'm now in the same boat when it comes to getting the balls to do the end over end double forward. It's not the height of the jump or the forward spin that I have a problem with. It's the 2 of them in a row and knowing how hurt I've been over the past few years just doing big single forwards that is holding me back.

Despite all the pain and cost of broken gear. The day I stop doing forwards or other jumps will be the day I stop windsurfing. I personally like fowards better than any other jump but they cant be the gatherer type.

BTW, I still cant tack and I think that is embarassing. Not that i ever bother to really try. Always just jibed.

For those who don't know Terry and wonder if he's just talking it up.
Well at the local spot we call him G.M.L.

Grand Master Looper

Does the sweetest stalled forwards around. Haven't seen another sailer do them as nicely as he does.

He likes snapping boards though.

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TerryNorth said...

The day I stop doing forwards or other jumps will be the day I stop windsurfing.

Don't say that. A local guy missed out on nearly 10 years of windsurfing because he was breaking too much gear jumping (not sponsored!) and only recently took it up again after a bit of persuasion.

I prob won't ever do a full forward, but after reading this thread, I'm gonna start trying the pussy approach...you all make it sound soooo easy!?!

Definitely go for it Scotty "Sailhack". No one should be holding back on at least trying the pussy gatherers approach off some chop.

http://www.pritchardwindsurfing.com/content/view/364/38/

This link is one of the better ones to describe the pussy approach of learning to doing forwards and it is the easiest move that anyone could try. There is no skill, balance or anything else needed to do your first forward like this.

However, for those of you hunters out there. Again, this link shows the correct method of what a first attempt would impress your mates. Just for good measure, make it a double.

www.continentseven.com/windsurfmove108.html

Closest clip I have seen of anyone pulling the golden gonads forward. He's spinning perfectly vertical but not high enough to make the complete second spin.

I really doubt that anyone is actually doing triples unless they are spinning almost horizontally.

And dont worry Scotty, I wont be giving up cause of broken gear. Windsurfing as a sport is still heaps cheaper than plenty of other hobbies that people might have.

Go, you hard core jumping mofos

I gave them up after impaling a board with my rig, and doing the ankle bending back thingy, 1994 (Ankle still clicks, and becoming arthritic)

In ancient times there were 2 variations, the barrell roll and the cheese roll.

I award 2 additional steel balls fo any board snappage, and a thank you from your friendly board manufacturer.

I'm off to cat haven, I mean the river.

Meow Meow

glad i have a month off to see you loop sailhack(give my sail back first though)

pussy way with a kombat 117.
gonna work or not ?

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Chef said...

glad i have a month off to see you loop sailhack(give my sail back first though)

This avo....you-me-forward-loop-practice-North-shore!!!

I'll keep your sail too (for insurance)

Actually, I reckon I did a couple of forwards yesterday, can't clearly remember though from the concussion! Something about getting hit with a few 50kt gusts just as I was about to chop-hop, made for a long swim!

Terry,

I had a crack at the gatherer's method yesterday, just as I pulled my back foot up, a footstrap screw popped out! My head hit the mast at full speed (I'm glad I invested in a Gath!)
Anyways, turned me off for the rest of the sesh...I'm right to go again now!