Location: La Perouse (Sydney), my first visit
Name: Ben
Experience: 5 months, learning planing, don't know carve gybe and water start
Weight: 60kg
Board: JP Explorer 165 Liters (275x75)
Sail: Extreme shot luff 4 battens 4.7m sail. (Only 370 Luff and 178 Boom). In the process of ordering a 6.7 superfreak to learn planing in lower wind
Wind: On shore wind, 20-25 knots first day, 15-20 knots second day

My first reaction of the spot: Very choppy water even the wind was not strong the second day

Got a few questions ?

1. In choppy water, the board was very difficult to turn (not sure because of too big board or whether my sail has a lower CE). Even tacking took effort.

2. Going very board reach without the harness lines was difficult (I wanted to go home). If I stood too far behind, the board sunk. if I didn't stand too far behind, the strong wind pulled the sail and my arms hurt.

3. non-planing carve gybe was difficult, stepping on the leeward rail did not turn the board that much. The choppy water made me very difficult to keep balance.

4. Planing: Still not into footstrap yet. Once I sit down on my seat harness with my ankle almost 90 degree, the board speed increased. The choppy water made the board very hard to balance. My front foot was stepping on the front foot strap for a short while. The unstable board just made me not confident of putting into straps yet. What should I do?

I am not in a position to buy smaller board because I don't think my skills are good enough for a smaller board
I know most of you are very experienced. Do you remember during your learning process many years ago, how do you solve these problems. Thanks

Try and practice in flat water until you get into the footstraps, handling a big board in chop and out of the footstraps is very difficult. With wsw to w and nw come to Foreshore drive, there the water is flat and you can practice. There is a small carpark before the one at the boat ramp.

Sounds like you need to do a few sessions at a more suitable spot, Lake Illawarra springs to mind.

You are clearly a technical learner, based on your questions, all the things you listed above will be solved with practice, practice, practice. Not changing your sails CE for example ;)

Al

Thanks very much... Very useful advice.

I need more practice at flat water.. I used to sail in Sydney harbour, with ferries and even sea planes around me.. Thought I can handle La Perouse. Obviously, I am not qualified yet..

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benyip said...

Location: La Perouse (Sydney), my first visit
Name: Ben
Experience: 5 months, learning planing, don't know carve gybe and water start
Weight: 60kg
Board: JP Explorer 165 Liters (275x75)
Sail: Extreme shot luff 4 battens 4.7m sail. (Only 370 Luff and 178 Boom). In the process of ordering a 6.7 superfreak to learn planing in lower wind
Wind: On shore wind, 20-25 knots first day, 15-20 knots second day

My first reaction of the spot: Very choppy water even the wind was not strong the second day

Got a few questions ?

1. In choppy water, the board was very difficult to turn (not sure because of too big board or whether my sail has a lower CE). Even tacking took effort.

2. Going very board reach without the harness lines was difficult (I wanted to go home). If I stood too far behind, the board sunk. if I didn't stand too far behind, the strong wind pulled the sail and my arms hurt.

3. non-planing carve gybe was difficult, stepping on the leeward rail did not turn the board that much. The choppy water made me very difficult to keep balance.

4. Planing: Still not into footstrap yet. Once I sit down on my seat harness with my ankle almost 90 degree, the board speed increased. The choppy water made the board very hard to balance. My front foot was stepping on the front foot strap for a short while. The unstable board just made me not confident of putting into straps yet. What should I do?

I am not in a position to buy smaller board because I don't think my skills are good enough for a smaller board
I know most of you are very experienced. Do you remember during your learning process many years ago, how do you solve these problems. Thanks

Hi benyip.
Hope my answers below help.
1. Yes - choppy water can make it more difficult to maneuver your board, especially if you are not planing.
2. Sailing very broadly, non-planning is difficult. this just requires practice.
3. When non-planning standing on the rail will not initiate the turn. You will need to turn using your rig (both tack and gybe) when not planning.
4. Just stick that front foot in there mate, then control the board with your feet. Thats the whole idea about foot straps (and keeping the board attached to your feet when doing massive inverted airs)

good luck with it.

Oh the joy of learning to sail

1. In choppy water, the board was very difficult to turn (not sure because of too big board or whether my sail has a lower CE). Even tacking took effort.

A big board in those conditions will be a handful. Not much to suggest except that one day you'll love those conditions. I can only suggest more practice to get used to it.

2. Going very board reach without the harness lines was difficult (I wanted to go home). If I stood too far behind, the board sunk. if I didn't stand too far behind, the strong wind pulled the sail and my arms hurt.

Not trying to be funny but that is what the harness is for!! When you get comfortable in a harness, there will be no strain on your arms and you can sail that way for hours. With the harness lines taking your weight, you won't have the problem of the tail sinking, your weight is transferred to the mast base which is in the centre of the board. If the board is not planning, all the force is just dragging the board through the water, and that takes a lot of effort. Because planning takes less force, the force on your arms will be less as well. If you can get the board planning, it will be less strain on you arms even if you aren't using the harness.

3. non-planing carve gybe was difficult, stepping on the leeward rail did not turn the board that much. The choppy water made me very difficult to keep balance.

When you aren't planning, the way to turn the board is with the sail, not by sinking a rail. Have a look at some footage of a slow gybe and how you position the sail. In the future you will be carving around, that is when you can bank the board and use that to turn. It's great fun though a carve gybe is a goal that requires a bit of work to perfect.

4. Planing: Still not into footstrap yet. Once I sit down on my seat harness with my ankle almost 90 degree, the board speed increased. The choppy water made the board very hard to balance. My front foot was stepping on the front foot strap for a short while. The unstable board just made me not confident of putting into straps yet. What should I do? I am not in a position to buy smaller board because I don't think my skills are good enough for a smaller board

Keep your back foot toward the centre line of the board, you don't want to bank the board over otherwise you will carve up into the wind and lose speed. Your weight will be mainly on the back foot, this will mean that you can move your front foot and not upset the trim of the board. You say that your front foot is stepping on the footstrap, just slip it in, this will give you better control of the board and should make your riding easier not harder. If you have adjustable straps, put them into inner positions as well, this will make it easier to get used to them.

OK only 60 kg on a pretty big wide board in 20+ knots out of the footstraps and that combo will get you bounced around a lot uncontrollably.
I think you are putting the cart in front of the horse so to speak. With that gear head to flatter water, a little less wind with a bigger sail, first try to get planing very fast and learn all the tricks to get into the footstraps, learn waterstarting, this is critical. Then work on the jibe, don't worry about the non-planning jibe not working, get going fast in the straps and start to learn a planing jibe (it will take years to master) knowing how to waterstart will be critical as you will fall often.
Then once you have footstraps, harness and waterstarting nailed and can sometimes jibe (or not) head out into 20+ knots but on a much smaller board.
The typical water conditions at 20+ knots will be too rough for anyone to plane on a 165L shortboard in a controlled fashion unless they weigh well over 100 kg or the water is unusually smooth (special sheltered location)

Also consider using a waist harness. This will be a bit controversial but in my opinion the seat harness for a beginner reinforces some bad habits. Your stance may not be correct but with the seat you can just sit down to keep from getting catapulted, with a waisty your stance needs to be more correct and your legs and feet become much more involved. With the waisty you have to lean the body out to counter the force of the sail because if you just sit the harness will slide up to your armpits, with a seat you just sit and the leg straps keep it from sliding up. Sailing along with a correct stance your ankles shouldn't be at 90 degrees as you described.
IMO, a seat harness is for racing and holding down giant sails but not for beginners, easier yes but at a price of enabling bad habits to develop.

Good advice from those above, time on water with practice will help, suggest reading thru Windsurfing Learning Curve by Dwbh in Qld section as lots of steps have been overcome in his learning curve, also ask for tips from local sailors at the beach im sure they will help you progress, sounds like you are doing great so keep going!!!!

1. Sailing in Choppy water is never easy when starting.

2. Try not to sail for long out of the harness. Have a good effort at bearing away, really pumping the sail and trying to "bounce the board" onto the plane, hook in and then keep low and work back to the straps. Hooking in without planing in high winds is asking to be catapulted. If you are planing the rig pressure will be much less but don't wear yourself out holding the sail if not possible to get onto plane.

3. Sinking the leeward rail when not planing doesn't really work. You need to sink the windward rail if not planing, but a short board like the explorer you should be able to gybe it just using the rig and keeping the board flat.

4. Experiment with footstrap positions starting at the front and inboard and moving them backwards as you become more comfortable.

Don't worry about carve gybing yet. Just get comfortable in the straps and harness and learn to waterstart. Then you can get a smaller board but probably still keep the explorer. (Don't want to get caught in marginal conditions and having to swim). I sailed around a Bombora South Pacific (140 litres about) around for a about a year in 88 and never really could carve gybe it is quite difficult to carve gybe a large board like the explorer. I then cracked my first carve gybe on a thruster wave board which would have been only 80 litres. Wave boards turn nicely but need to crack the water start and harness and straps first.

What I am trying to say is we would all be having problems with that gear in those conditions. What makes windsurfing so hard to learn is in part the fact the board, sail, fin must match each other and they all must match the conditions. For instance your board has a recommended sail size from 4.5 to 10M, you are on a 4.7 which at your weight might be the right size sail for the wind but you are really pushing it with the big board.
You are only 60 kg which offers a tremendous advantage in many aspects of windsurfing, you are expected to be nimble and athletic with exceptional balance but not particularly strong meaning you can get out on tiny sinker boards us heavyweights can only dream of, your balance and nimbleness should allow you to waterstart easily.
At 100 kg I should be able to beat you in a drag race by holding down bigger sails but you should be able to do just about everything else better. Look at the pros, the racers are mostly big guys and the wave sailors are mostly much smaller.
So what I'm getting at is you aren't using your size to your advantage, that board is too big for you beyond rank beginner. You could probably slog a board much smaller.
If you are indeed quite nimble, young and athletic and there is 20 knot wind available it's actually possible to skip the entire slog around on big board tiny sail uphauling and start straight away with waterstarting before you can even sail, master getting yanked upright from the water onto the board and figure out sailing as you go.
Since you now understand sailing basics fairly well there is no excuse not to get waterstarting straightened out. If I were you I would spend most of my windsurfing time fooling around in waist to chest deep water with one foot on the board getting dragged around steering the board and eventually getting pulled upright, what you will learn about sail handling will help you immeasurably.
If you are teaching yourself how to windsurf as I and most people have, recognize that you will need to be big into instructional DVD's and self analysis and there may eventually come a plateau or sticking point that may require instruction as someone besides yourself can much more easily see what you are doing wrong.

I am so impressed by all of your advice. Very useful. I did not even think so many people give me advice...most people I met have 10+ years of experience...as a beginner.all these little advice count.

I am waiting for my 6.7 superfreak to come to learn planing on flat water and water start

Thank you very much...enough reading and research for me for all the replies..

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I am waiting for my 6.7 superfreak to come to learn planing on flat water and water start

don't worry about learning how to water start , like Al Bently said get down to illawarra, it's knee deep for a couple of klms and just lean how to sail and have some fun , if you blow a jibe you can stand up and back on the board , if you want to learn how to water start just lay down in knee deep water and practice , you will soon get the hang of it and you won't get tired like you would in deep water
the main thing to remember , all of the top guns you see sailing started off at where your at now, and like these forums everyone will be willing to give you tips both on and off the water
probably the best advise I could give you is take a trip down to sanctuary point next season N/E and spend a day with arky(ka360) he is the undisputedly best windsurfing instructor in the country and you wont get a better place to learn on the east coast of nsw

I'm thinking of doing the drive to lake of late. Going on Jason's photos it has been a lot more windy than the narrabeen lake and to go to Kurnell would take me an hour, may as well make it an hour and half and have a really good session!!

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said..
I'm thinking of doing the drive to lake of late. Going on Jason's photos it has been a lot more windy than the narrabeen lake and to go to Kurnell would take me an hour, may as well make it an hour and half and have a really good session!!

if you have a look at the back ground in jase's pics there are only rolling hills and not heavily treed , by the time the westerly hits primbee the air is reasonably clean , on a good day the westerly can be cleaner than a good seabreeze n/easter

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said..
What I am trying to say is we would all be having problems with that gear in those conditions. What makes windsurfing so hard to learn is in part the fact the board, sail, fin must match each other and they all must match the conditions. For instance your board has a recommended sail size from 4.5 to 10M, you are on a 4.7 which at your weight might be the right size sail for the wind but you are really pushing it with the big board.
You are only 60 kg which offers a tremendous advantage in many aspects of windsurfing, you are expected to be nimble and athletic with exceptional balance but not particularly strong meaning you can get out on tiny sinker boards us heavyweights can only dream of, your balance and nimbleness should allow you to waterstart easily.
At 100 kg I should be able to beat you in a drag race by holding down bigger sails but you should be able to do just about everything else better. Look at the pros, the racers are mostly big guys and the wave sailors are mostly much smaller.
So what I'm getting at is you aren't using your size to your advantage, that board is too big for you beyond rank beginner. You could probably slog a board much smaller.
If you are indeed quite nimble, young and athletic and there is 20 knot wind available it's actually possible to skip the entire slog around on big board tiny sail uphauling and start straight away with waterstarting before you can even sail, master getting yanked upright from the water onto the board and figure out sailing as you go.
Since you now understand sailing basics fairly well there is no excuse not to get waterstarting straightened out. If I were you I would spend most of my windsurfing time fooling around in waist to chest deep water with one foot on the board getting dragged around steering the board and eventually getting pulled upright, what you will learn about sail handling will help you immeasurably.
If you are teaching yourself how to windsurf as I and most people have, recognize that you will need to be big into instructional DVD's and self analysis and there may eventually come a plateau or sticking point that may require instruction as someone besides yourself can much more easily see what you are doing wrong.

Brr.. wrong time of year for that!

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said..

I am waiting for my 6.7 superfreak to come to learn planing on flat water and water start

don't worry about learning how to water start , like Al Bently said get down to illawarra, it's knee deep for a couple of klms and just lean how to sail and have some fun , if you blow a jibe you can stand up and back on the board , if you want to learn how to water start just lay down in knee deep water and practice , you will soon get the hang of it and you won't get tired like you would in deep water
the main thing to remember , all of the top guns you see sailing started off at where your at now, and like these forums everyone will be willing to give you tips both on and off the water
probably the best advise I could give you is take a trip down to sanctuary point next season N/E and spend a day with arky(ka360) he is the undisputedly best windsurfing instructor in the country and you wont get a better place to learn on the east coast of nsw

Nowhere near as cold! You may need a wind fin?

It is tricky to learn but a lot of fun when you get past the learning stage.
Hooked in is for sailing/blasting along.
Unhooked is for turning the board. As has been said, when not planing, you need to turn it with the sail. The way that works is that you hold the sail to one side of your body and that means you have more pull on one arm than the other. That transfers down through your feet into the board.
You can see in this photo that he has the sail off to one side.