Is slalom board faster then kite foiling,can we fight aginst kite -foiling in slalom or in long distance race course?

example can we win aginst kiters in high wind Fuerteventura slalom race?
Will kiters use foil or not in Fuerte?

Depends on windspeed and course angles.
Currently slalom boards are faster across the wind, slight upwind, and shallow downwind..to just beyond broad, in winds above 16mph.
Below that windspeed, kitefoils begin to match boat speeds and still dominate in angles.

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LeeD said..
Depends on windspeed and course angles.
Currently slalom boards are faster across the wind, slight upwind, and shallow downwind..to just beyond broad, in winds above 16mph.
Below that windspeed, kitefoils begin to match boat speeds and still dominate in angles.

so slalom board will win on defi wind aginst kitefoil or kiteboard?

What's the wind?
Wind direction EXACTLY?
Exactly what's the course? I know it's "usually" back and forth along the shoreline.

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fpw9082 said..

LeeD said..
Depends on windspeed and course angles.
Currently slalom boards are faster across the wind, slight upwind, and shallow downwind..to just beyond broad, in winds above 16mph.
Below that windspeed, kitefoils begin to match boat speeds and still dominate in angles.

so slalom board will win on defi wind aginst kitefoil or kiteboard?

There are different defiwind locations, last one was direct offshore with shallow flat water shoreside, so windsurf should be faster as Leed said. But formula foil kiteboards are really fast over swell/chop, even at high winds. If you put in high upwind destination, any foil kite would be faster in any condition i guess.

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LeeD said..
What's the wind?
Wind direction EXACTLY?
Exactly what's the course? I know it's "usually" back and forth along the shoreline.

lets put best kitefoilers and best slalom sailors on high wind Fuerte downwind slalom race ,how will win?
I am interested are kitefoilers faster than slalom on high chopy wind ,across and downwind angle?

(i know that kitefoilers are fastest on upwind course..)

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fpw9082 said..

LeeD said..
What's the wind?
Wind direction EXACTLY?
Exactly what's the course? I know it's "usually" back and forth along the shoreline.

lets put best kitefoilers and best slalom sailors on high wind Fuerte downwind slalom race ,how will win?
I am interested are kitefoilers faster than slalom on high chopy wind ,across and downwind angle?

(i know that kitefoilers are fastest on upwind course..)

My guess is that any foil will be faster than a fin in high wind IF there is big chop (as you know, usually there is chop with high wind)

How deep downwind?
Are there mark's that need rounding or does a waterskiing win dead downwind?

www.sail-world.com/news/212920/Record-broken-at-Lighthouse-to-Leighton-Kiteboard


I found myself on the water with the best kitefoilers warming up for the 2018 Lighthouse to Leighton race. It's no contest even for the fastest windsurfers. Not open ocean but pretty choppy.

www.sail-world.com/news/212920/Record-broken-at-Lighthouse-to-Leighton-Kiteboard.

19 km in 18 minutes 49 seconds. (You can check it's 19 km on google earth)

19000m/1129 seconds = 16.82 m/sec = 32.7 knots!

Kite foil (race foil and ram foil kite) will win every time.

that is unless of course they have a catastrophic crash and leave both their feet behind attached to the board while they get rag dolled down wind feetless screaming all the way.

The only thing that might sway the result is a flat flat sea state. But in high winds fuerte certainly isn't flat.

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Subsonic said..
Kite foil (race foil and ram foil kite) will win every time.

that is unless of course they have a catastrophic crash and leave both their feet behind attached to the board while they get rag dolled down wind feetless screaming all the way.

what is reason why kitfoilers are so much fasther than windsurf with foil?

Smaller foil (which im told is also far easier to control with no link to the power source), generally much larger power source and as mentioned previously in the thread, they don't have to interact with the sea state (much).

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Subsonic said..
Smaller foil (which im told is also far easier to control with no link to the power source), generally much larger power source and as mention previously in the thread, they don't have to interact with the sea state (much).

Are small foils generally easier to control than larger foils? For Slingshot foils, I find the Infinity 84 much more sensitive to chop than the i76, which is also a lot more sensitive than the smaller TC68. Is the same true for other foil types?

It will be interesting to see how the wind wings develop over time. Seems the current consensus is that beginners need larger foils and/or wings and/or more wind than for windfoiling, but the good guys seem to get going in similar wind and wing/sail sizes (although probably still on bigger foils). In theory, a wing should also allow a smaller foil since the wing can pull upwards, similar to a kite, rather than pushing down like a windsurfing rig. That probably would require the use of a harness, though, which does not seem common (yet?). But even if the wings would get faster, the kites would keep the advantage of a larger power source.

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Subsonic said..
Smaller foil (which im told is also far easier to control with no link to the power source).

That's what i've been told as well. The kite foiler was amazed how universal joint foilers could keep it all together and under control.
Doesn't seem to be much of a problem getting small foils going with a kite. They don't like dropping down during a gybe though. That seems to dictate the lower size limit.

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boardsurfr said..

Subsonic said..
Smaller foil (which im told is also far easier to control with no link to the power source), generally much larger power source and as mention previously in the thread, they don't have to interact with the sea state (much).

Are small foils generally easier to control than larger foils? For Slingshot foils, I find the Infinity 84 much more sensitive to chop than the i76, which is also a lot more sensitive than the smaller TC68. Is the same true for other foil types?

It will be interesting to see how the wind wings develop over time. Seems the current consensus is that beginners need larger foils and/or wings and/or more wind than for windfoiling, but the good guys seem to get going in similar wind and wing/sail sizes (although probably still on bigger foils). In theory, a wing should also allow a smaller foil since the wing can pull upwards, similar to a kite, rather than pushing down like a windsurfing rig. That probably would require the use of a harness, though, which does not seem common (yet?). But even if the wings would get faster, the kites would keep the advantage of a larger power source.

As i understand it and from what i've heard from people who do, the increased control comes from only having foot connection to the board (A smaller board as well). Obviously a smaller wing is easier to control lift with in higher winds.

It will be very intrresting to see how the windingers go as things progress, but i don't know that theres a speed seeking culture in windinging yet.

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Subsonic said..

boardsurfr said..

Subsonic said..
Smaller foil (which im told is also far easier to control with no link to the power source), generally much larger power source and as mention previously in the thread, they don't have to interact with the sea state (much).

Are small foils generally easier to control than larger foils? For Slingshot foils, I find the Infinity 84 much more sensitive to chop than the i76, which is also a lot more sensitive than the smaller TC68. Is the same true for other foil types?

It will be interesting to see how the wind wings develop over time. Seems the current consensus is that beginners need larger foils and/or wings and/or more wind than for windfoiling, but the good guys seem to get going in similar wind and wing/sail sizes (although probably still on bigger foils). In theory, a wing should also allow a smaller foil since the wing can pull upwards, similar to a kite, rather than pushing down like a windsurfing rig. That probably would require the use of a harness, though, which does not seem common (yet?). But even if the wings would get faster, the kites would keep the advantage of a larger power source.

As i understand it and from what i've heard from people who do, the increased control comes from only having foot connection to the board (A smaller board as well). Obviously a smaller wing is easier to control lift with in higher winds.

It will be very intrresting to see how the windingers go as things progress, but i don't know that theres a speed seeking culture in windinging yet.

what is windinging?

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fpw9082 said..

Subsonic said..

boardsurfr said..

Subsonic said..
Smaller foil (which im told is also far easier to control with no link to the power source), generally much larger power source and as mention previously in the thread, they don't have to interact with the sea state (much).

Are small foils generally easier to control than larger foils? For Slingshot foils, I find the Infinity 84 much more sensitive to chop than the i76, which is also a lot more sensitive than the smaller TC68. Is the same true for other foil types?

It will be interesting to see how the wind wings develop over time. Seems the current consensus is that beginners need larger foils and/or wings and/or more wind than for windfoiling, but the good guys seem to get going in similar wind and wing/sail sizes (although probably still on bigger foils). In theory, a wing should also allow a smaller foil since the wing can pull upwards, similar to a kite, rather than pushing down like a windsurfing rig. That probably would require the use of a harness, though, which does not seem common (yet?). But even if the wings would get faster, the kites would keep the advantage of a larger power source.

As i understand it and from what i've heard from people who do, the increased control comes from only having foot connection to the board (A smaller board as well). Obviously a smaller wing is easier to control lift with in higher winds.

It will be very intrresting to see how the windingers go as things progress, but i don't know that theres a speed seeking culture in windinging yet.

what is windinging?

Its a windsurfer that wants to kite but is scared of strings.

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lotofwind said..
Its a windsurfer that wants to kite but is scared of strings.

i dont understand...some new concept of windsurf or what?

this? can this go fast?

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fpw9082 said..

lotofwind said..
Its a windsurfer that wants to kite but is scared of strings.

i dont understand...some new concept of windsurf or what?

this? can this go fast?

Close. More like this though:

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Subsonic said..

fpw9082 said..

lotofwind said..
Its a windsurfer that wants to kite but is scared of strings.

i dont understand...some new concept of windsurf or what?

this? can this go fast?

Close. More like this though:

it seems that our classic sail concept has some physics limitation =big heeling arm..so we can never win kites :(

link:
project.kiteboat.com/design/

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lotofwind, in an attempt to be funny, said..

fpw9082 said..

what is windinging?

Its a windsurfer that wants to kite but is scared of strings.

Given how so many of the first adapters were kiters and how hard it's being pushed by the kite industry, I'm pretty sure you have it backwards. There's probably someone in the wingding industry right now ordering a set of "Kitesurfing has been cancelled" bumper stickers.

Perhaps this is a good time to change your handle to lotofwing?

Why not talk to the guys here who own i76, 84, and also the 65's?
They don't need to guess, they use those smaller front foils.

Kitefoilers are faster until they blow a transition in light conditions and end up swimming. Then even a paddleboard passes them.

On a up and down course, kitefoil rules.
But what about reaching, beam, close, and off the wind like real world angles?

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LeeD said..
On a up and down course, kitefoil rules.
But what about reaching, beam, close, and off the wind like real world angles?

What are the angles in the Ronstan Bridge to Bridge in the Bay?

Haven't raced it since '01, not sponsored by Ronstan in those days.
Unlimited course, you go down, then back, as quickly as you can. A few years up, then back down.
Kitefoils rule. High angles, low speed. Then lower angles than anyone except for Cory Roesler on his 2 waterkis. My spelling is off.
Bay Challenge and Oneill Classics are what I did...poorly.

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LeeD said..
On a up and down course, kitefoil rules.
But what about reaching, beam, close, and off the wind like real world angles?

As a kiter I can get past the sail boards on a reach in "just" planing conditions. But when sailboards are powered I can't keep up as getting the foil quickly through the swells is difficult. I'm sure the top kite racers are faster in all conditions but when it's just the locals the sailboards will have the edge in higher winds just due to water conditions.

I know I'm quicker on my sailboard when using a 5 mtr sail and under than any kitefoil gear I own.

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airsail said..

LeeD said..
On a up and down course, kitefoil rules.
But what about reaching, beam, close, and off the wind like real world angles?

As a kiter I can get past the sail boards on a reach in "just" planing conditions. But when sailboards are powered I can't keep up as getting the foil quickly through the swells is difficult. I'm sure the top kite racers are faster in all conditions but when it's just the locals the sailboards will have the edge in higher winds just due to water conditions.

I know I'm quicker on my sailboard when using a 5 mtr sail and under than any kitefoil gear I own.

If you on foil why is difficult to goes through swells? foil dont feel chop..

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fpw9082 said..

airsail said..

LeeD said..
On a up and down course, kitefoil rules.
But what about reaching, beam, close, and off the wind like real world angles?

As a kiter I can get past the sail boards on a reach in "just" planing conditions. But when sailboards are powered I can't keep up as getting the foil quickly through the swells is difficult. I'm sure the top kite racers are faster in all conditions but when it's just the locals the sailboards will have the edge in higher winds just due to water conditions.

I know I'm quicker on my sailboard when using a 5 mtr sail and under than any kitefoil gear I own.

If you on foil why is difficult to goes through swells? foil dont feel chop..

They do feel chop, over 15 knots there are quite large swells moving through our local and a lot of water movement. My mast is 110 cm, if the swell is larger than this you need to navigate the peaks and troughs to stop the foil breaching. Any exposure of the front wing above the water is instant crash. You also have to contend with the peaks, letting the foil rise over them so you don't bury the nose, but then quickly drop down the other side so you don't breach. This is all bloody hard at speed.
On a sailboard a bit of airtime is no issue, the fin sticks and you power on, too easy.

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airsail said..
On a sailboard a bit of airtime is no issue, the fin sticks and you power on, too easy.

Yep, the only problem then is deciding which side to pass you on!