I was silly and sold my 7m Turbo to have a 7.2m Moto . I used to have the Turbo for sailing in chop and an Overdrive for speed sailing.
I was hoping the Moto would do both. I find the Moto doesn't have the bottom end of the Turbo and the luff fills with water which makes uphauling and waterstarting in chop hard.
It's good for speed sailing but I'm wondering if buying an NCX would work for chop? Or another Turbo??
I like the grunt of the turbos on bearaways and their stability. I don't like the way the sail can catch the wind and get blown away ( cams) if you get ejected.
What are the NCXs like for gps speed on bearaways? I imagine that they are much more user friendly in chop.
They don't make Turbos anymore but I can probably get a custom one made .
Anyone sailed both? Thoughts?

Not related to your question, but curious. What size lines do you run ?. Do you use a seat harness ?. What's your height ?

hey Sue I had an NCX and got rid of it asap, only worked for me VERY powered up, hopeless in lulls, but I'm much heavier than you at 95kg
now on Ezzy sails a lot, Lion has cams but very narrow luff tube, Cheetah is no cam, both great sails and highly tunable
depends on your degree of brand loyalty ...

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jn1 said..
Not related to your question, but curious. What size lines do you run ?. Do you use a seat harness ?. What's your height ?

168cm? ( 5 ' 5)
28 - 32 inch adjustable I've no idea what lengths I use although I've cut the clear outer tubing off so I can make them longer. I make them long for slogging in patchy wind so it's easier to hook in and out. I shorten them as the wind picks up.
Seat harness
Between 70 - 75kgs kitted up with impact vest/ camelback etc
I'd be using it in patchy 10 - 17kts nsw wind.

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Searoamer said..
hey Sue I had an NCX and got rid of it asap, only worked for me VERY powered up, hopeless in lulls, but I'm much heavier than you at 95kg
now on Ezzy sails a lot, Lion has cams but very narrow luff tube, Cheetah is no cam, both great sails and highly tunable
depends on your degree of brand loyalty ...

Would they rig on Severne rdm masts? That's the main reason I stick to one brand. I've also used mismatched gear in the past and vowed never again.
I had the wrong mast for a 3 cammed sail and it wouldn't rotate.

Hi Sue I'm maybe not much help but I think cams are a great help when running down wind with a gust .
I'm more of a free rider and wanna be GPS rider so my sails are 7,0 M5 severne ,and 1 x 8,6 overdrive and 2 cam Ezzy Lions .The lion gets me
to a reasonable speed ,it has a very small luff pocket and carry's very little water ,the full race sail has way better top end but does take more commitment ,I never put my race sails in the water if I can help it
unless I can stand up .bloody heavy with water .the speed is worth it ,
Rough water the lion is easy to handle .

If you liked the Turbo and had a good time with it and can get one made ,I would go that way .

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Tardy said..
Hi Sue I'm maybe not much help but I think cams are a great help when running down wind with a gust .
I'm more of a free rider and wanna be GPS rider so my sails are 7,0 M5 severne ,and 1 x 8,6 overdrive and 2 cam Ezzy Lions .The lion gets me
to a reasonable speed ,it has a very small luff pocket and carry's very little water ,the full race sail has way better top end but does take more commitment ,I never put my race sails in the water if I can help it
unless I can stand up .bloody heavy with water .the speed is worth it ,
Rough water the lion is easy to handle .

If you liked the Turbo and had a good time with it and can get one made ,I would go that way .

I shouldn't have sold the old one....
I'm getting a custom 7.5m Turbo . I'll see what's that like when I get it and if I'm happy I might get a 7m.
If the NCX isn't any good in lulls it won't be much good as our wind is mainly lulls..

Reason why I'm asking SBC, after 2011, Severne cut out their boom pockets much higher. I ended up taking my 2012 NCX Pro's to a sail maker (back in 2012) to lower the pocket. This was the same for a 2013 Turbo, and a 2019 NCX. In the end, I figured these sails were designed for 6 foot dudes, and/or with a waist harness. Severne probably don't test with the booms hard into the lower part of the pocket, so, I left Severne. So, I had to run very long lines, being a seat harness. Too higher boom made sail less optimal for bottom end wind range with seat harness. O/P top end, no issue. I can't use waist harness, due to upper back issue. But, waist harness would have probably solved bottom end issue for me with the Severnes.

Yes, don't mix mast brands, unless you know what you're doing. I really struggled to dial in my last NCX with my non-Severne masts. For my 2016 Ezzy Cheetah, I had to dial it in with some special rigging. Cheetah + CC mast, was horrible.

Searoamer: Depends on what you want to do. The Cheetah is good for people to participate in GPSTC with health/body issues, which prevents them using a heavy/wieldy speed rig. Maybe the new Cheetahs are better design ?, but my 2016 5.5 Cheetah was a slug bearing away. To give you an idea, I could barely get my Cheetah above 30kt 2sec. This was a dialed in rig, best conditions. Flattest water. My KARace 5.5, with mismatched mast, same board, same fin: 33-34kt 2sec consistently. It would do more with proper SDM mast. The Cheetahs are great in the ocean, beam reach. Can't beat them for that IMO. I wish I didn't sell mine. Stupidest decision ever.

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jn1 said..
Reason why I'm asking SBC, after 2011, Severne cut out their boom pockets much higher. I ended up taking my 2012 NCX Pro's to a sail maker (back in 2012) to lower the pocket. This was the same for a 2013 Turbo, and a 2019 NCX. In the end, I figured these sails were designed for 6 foot dudes, and/or with a waist harness. Severne probably don't test with the booms hard into the lower part of the pocket, so, I left Severne. So, I had to run very long lines, being a seat harness. Too higher boom made sail less optimal for bottom end wind range with seat harness. O/P top end, no issue. I can't use waist harness, due to upper back issue. But, waist harness would have probably solved bottom end issue for me with the Severnes.

Yes, don't mix mast brands, unless you know what you're doing. I really struggled to dial in my last NCX with my non-Severne masts. For my 2016 Ezzy Cheetah, I had to dial it in with some special rigging. Cheetah + CC mast, was horrible.

Searoamer: Depends on what you want to do. The Cheetah is good for people to participate in GPSTC with health/body issues, which prevents them using a heavy/wieldy speed rig. Maybe the new Cheetahs are better design ?, but my 2016 5.5 Cheetah was a slug bearing away. To give you an idea, I could barely get my Cheetah above 30kt 2sec. This was a dialed in rig, best conditions. Flattest water. My KARace 5.5, with mismatched mast, same board, same fin: 33-34kt 2sec consistently. It would do more with proper SDM mast. The Cheetahs are great in the ocean, beam reach. Can't beat them for that IMO. I wish I didn't sell mine. Stupidest decision ever.

Wouldn't it be nice to click our fingers and get that gear back..
Interesting..I recall having issues with boom height, so much so that I'd break the bottom boom sleeve zip .
Not so much lately? I thought it was the recessed deck of my isonic but they work on my usual boards
I do run the boom on the bottom 2 marks of the sail..

I dunno SBC, when I have to rig a sail like that (with boom rammed down into the bottom pocket), that tells me I'm too small for sail. Speaking for myself here, high booms are good. It makes the rig efficient, and makes planing gybes easy. But, it gets to a point where as boom goes higher and higher, and the lines get longer and longer, the rig becomes inefficient. It's like having a too lower boom. Each sail will have that happy boom height. It works out for me that: wave gear, generally I run 28cm lines. For Slalom/speed, I run 26cm lines as I can commit more to the rig during bear aways. If it's a brand new slalom/speed sail, I run variable lines, and play with boom height and line length to see what size produces the best speed. I normally like boom between chin and eyes when standing up straight on board. This is all with seat harness of course. I'm 172cm.

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sboardcrazy said..

Searoamer said..
hey Sue I had an NCX and got rid of it asap, only worked for me VERY powered up, hopeless in lulls, but I'm much heavier than you at 95kg
now on Ezzy sails a lot, Lion has cams but very narrow luff tube, Cheetah is no cam, both great sails and highly tunable
depends on your degree of brand loyalty ...

Would they rig on Severne rdm masts? That's the main reason I stick to one brand. I've also used mismatched gear in the past and vowed never again.
I had the wrong mast for a 3 cammed sail and it wouldn't rotate.

Ezzy designs around RDM, I reckon your Severne Blues etc would go fine
I have been using Slake MDMs and having fun, Lions come with a quiver of cams and spacers so you can use any mast that is "constant curve"
personally, I found the big Turbos I tried would fold in half in the gusts compared to my 3 or 4 cam sails, but smaller ones work for you!
maybe the new NCX has more fullness, but the ones I tried were too flat and twitchy
Living in Thailand it is all about freeride and stoke, don't need to see 40+ on the GPS any more, so choose my sails accordingly

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jn1 said..
I dunno SBC, when I have to rig a sail like that (with boom rammed down into the bottom pocket), that tells me I'm too small for sail. Speaking for myself here, high booms are good. It makes the rig efficient, and makes planing gybes easy. But, it gets to a point where as boom goes higher and higher, and the lines get longer and longer, the rig becomes inefficient. It's like having a too lower boom. Each sail will have that happy boom height. It works out for me that: wave gear, generally I run 28cm lines. For Slalom/speed, I run 26cm lines as I can commit more to the rig during bear aways. If it's a brand new slalom/speed sail, I run variable lines, and play with boom height and line length to see what size produces the best speed. I normally like boom between chin and eyes when standing up straight on board. This is all with seat harness of course. I'm 172cm.

I usually have my boom at chin height or so it can go under my armpit standing on the ground. I probably don't play around with height as much as I should.
My chop boards are long and narrow and I have a different stance with them..not sure what that is as I'm used to them now but I remember when I first got them how different everything felt.

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Searoamer said..

sboardcrazy said..

Searoamer said..
hey Sue I had an NCX and got rid of it asap, only worked for me VERY powered up, hopeless in lulls, but I'm much heavier than you at 95kg
now on Ezzy sails a lot, Lion has cams but very narrow luff tube, Cheetah is no cam, both great sails and highly tunable
depends on your degree of brand loyalty ...

Would they rig on Severne rdm masts? That's the main reason I stick to one brand. I've also used mismatched gear in the past and vowed never again.
I had the wrong mast for a 3 cammed sail and it wouldn't rotate.

Ezzy designs around RDM, I reckon your Severne Blues etc would go fine
I have been using Slake MDMs and having fun, Lions come with a quiver of cams and spacers so you can use any mast that is "constant curve"
personally, I found the big Turbos I tried would fold in half in the gusts compared to my 3 or 4 cam sails, but smaller ones work for you!
maybe the new NCX has more fullness, but the ones I tried were too flat and twitchy
Living in Thailand it is all about freeride and stoke, don't need to see 40+ on the GPS any more, so choose my sails accordingly

I love my Turbos. I suppose in chop I rig down earlier. It was only when I used my 6 5m at Lake George in overpowered conditions that I noticed it turning itself in a figure 8..The OD are much better in those conditions.

I've had Turbos 6m, 6.5m, 7.5m and 8.6m. Now just have the 8.6m and NCX 6m, 6.5m and 7m.

NCX is fine in chop. Easier to rig and no luff to fill in higher wind, choppier conditions. I find them stable enough.

Turbos have a little edge in lulls and my speeds were typically a knot faster, although was younger and fitter so might not just be the sail. Better in low end wind range.

Last week saw a brand new NCX 6.5m rigged up and it has a lot more shape than mine, looked excellent.

Overall, I find the NCX easier and the tradeoffs are ok for Swan River sailing in Perth.

I had a s/h 7.5m Turbo which was great.
Fell apart after a few years, so I bought a new one. However, the new one annoys me as the lower cam keeps popping out.
Paul (ex Severne) tuned the sail for me but the cam kept popping out. Paul told me to get a Severne mast, which I did.
The issue persisted, so I replaced it with an Ezzy Cheetah 7m. Roughly the same power.

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Obelix said..
I had a s/h 7.5m Turbo which was great.
Fell apart after a few years, so I bought a new one. However, the new one annoys me as the lower cam keeps popping out.
Paul (ex Severne) tuned the sail for me but the cam kept popping out. Paul told me to get a Severne mast, which I did.
The issue persisted, so I replaced it with an Ezzy Cheetah 7m. Roughly the same power.

I used to have that issue with my 7.5m Turbo.. I added 2cm of downhaul and that fixed it..I don't know whether I added a spacer as well?

RDMs are great for durability and freeride.
I dont like using larger no cam sails with RDM, there is too much give in the luff tube which makes it feel less stable in gusts.
Thats why I stick to 2 cam Ezzy Lions with RDM.
I use an Ezzy Cheetah in 6m as its also B&J with a 95l board. But if I was to buy another 6m I would get a Lion.
I believe Severne are now constant curve, and Ezzy at the flex-top end of constant curve. I've used the Cheetah and Lion on a CC Unifiber mast, and you can certainly use it, but switching to an Ezzy mast gave more power at the bottom end.
The Ezzy sails arent as fast as other cammed freerace sails, but are certainly easy to rig and use. The later Ezzys are better than the 2015 and earlier sails, more twist and lighter both in weight and feel.

Hi Sue
I feel for you. I have them all in the +/-7m range : NCX, OD, Moto, Turbo and even Gator (2022-25). Still
cant make up my mind. The NCX is light and fast, I stay out longer and can hold on the upper end for a long way. But I love using the Turbo for its low end and feel altho I am not as comfortable at its top end so top speed is less. OD is a shorter full on session. Am trying to enjoy the Moto but same thoughts as you, in my hands it seems to have neither of either rather than best of both altho when well powered its a joy. 6m NCX is my fave of all when it blows and expect to break 35 knts with it comfortably in flat water bear aways and its comfy in chop - but in lighter wind a 7ish Turbo rather than a 7,8 Moto or large NCX would be my keeper if I had to choose just one if only because it deals with the lulls better. Good luck finding that Turbo feeling again.

^^ I heard the Severne ROTAG's are good

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jn1 said..
^^ I heard the Severne ROTAG's are good

It's a shame they only work in one direction

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Jasonwave said..
Hi Sue
I feel for you. I have them all in the +/-7m range : NCX, OD, Moto, Turbo and even Gator (2022-25). Still
cant make up my mind. The NCX is light and fast, I stay out longer and can hold on the upper end for a long way. But I love using the Turbo for its low end and feel altho I am not as comfortable at its top end so top speed is less. OD is a shorter full on session. Am trying to enjoy the Moto but same thoughts as you, in my hands it seems to have neither of either rather than best of both altho when well powered its a joy. 6m NCX is my fave of all when it blows and expect to break 35 knts with it comfortably in flat water bear aways and its comfy in chop - but in lighter wind a 7ish Turbo rather than a 7,8 Moto or large NCX would be my keeper if I had to choose just one if only because it deals with the lulls better. Good luck finding that Turbo feeling again.

Interesting. Thanks.
Yep Motos good very powered up in flat , shallow water..

Thought about it again, to reply to your question : if I was looking for speed runs I would take the NCX rather than Turbo. It feels like it can just keep going faster as wind increases and in comfortable control whereas the Turbo seems to top out sooner as I get nervous in bigger gusts. However my off-the-wind run is short so cannot really comment on the advantages of cambers at a wide angle. In short, oddly the Moto feels kinda more similar to NCX than to Turbo. Except that I hate swimming with the Moto.

+ 1 Ezzy Lions. Because that's what I know best. Lasted me well, learnt on them and still going. Now trying race sails, yes they feel more steady in the top end, but aren't always more fun.
I havnt tried the race sails in the deep yet. I know the Ezzys come out of the water though as I did it many times learning.

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Jasonwave said..
Thought about it again, to reply to your question : if I was looking for speed runs I would take the NCX rather than Turbo. It feels like it can just keep going faster as wind increases and in comfortable control whereas the Turbo seems to top out sooner as I get nervous in bigger gusts. However my off-the-wind run is short so cannot really comment on the advantages of cambers at a wide angle. In short, oddly the Moto feels kinda more similar to NCX than to Turbo. Except that I hate swimming with the Moto.

' Swimming with the Moto'...I never used to fall in much, but as I get older I am, and I'm finding uphauling and waterstarting harder. I've been avoiding using the Moto in deep choppy water for that reason.

I bought my Turbos and OD off a guy who was going to NCXs for exactly that reason, ocean sailing he was getting a bit older and tired quicker with them. I must admit, my best feeling, longest and possibly fastest sessions are with the NCXs when the wind is just right (ie 18/20 knts plus), flat or ocean waters. But my worst sessions too when underpowered. When conditions just right, its a beauty in drag racing mode. Note however I kinda have a preference for the freer feeling of non camber sails but conclude that cambers seem better in lighter winds.

Hi,
if your concern of the moto is lack of low-end grunt, the NCX won't be the solution. NCX have even less low end, and you get stalled in lulls where a turbo would just carry you through. On the other end, turbos max out rather early when the wind picks up.

My solution was ODs - have them in all sizes, and while in the low end they have a bit less grunt than the turbo, in the top end they are just phenomenal in translating gusts into speed. That being said, I rig my overdrives always a size bigger to have the low-end punch, but still can handle the gusts.

If you want a small mast sleeve and rather low-end grunt, the turbo not the NCX s the sail to go - if you can still get one!

best
mariachi76

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mariachi76 said..
Hi,
if your concern of the moto is lack of low-end grunt, the NCX won't be the solution. NCX have even less low end, and you get stalled in lulls where a turbo would just carry you through. On the other end, turbos max out rather early when the wind picks up.

My solution was ODs - have them in all sizes, and while in the low end they have a bit less grunt than the turbo, in the top end they are just phenomenal in translating gusts into speed. That being said, I rig my overdrives always a size bigger to have the low-end punch, but still can handle the gusts.

If you want a small mast sleeve and rather low-end grunt, the turbo not the NCX s the sail to go - if you can still get one!

best
mariachi76

I'll have to get a custom Turbo made..I've got a 7.5m turbo on the way. It will be interesting to see what it's like.

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mariachi76 said..
Hi,
if your concern of the moto is lack of low-end grunt, the NCX won't be the solution. NCX have even less low end, and you get stalled in lulls where a turbo would just carry you through. On the other end, turbos max out rather early when the wind picks up.

My solution was ODs - have them in all sizes, and while in the low end they have a bit less grunt than the turbo, in the top end they are just phenomenal in translating gusts into speed. That being said, I rig my overdrives always a size bigger to have the low-end punch, but still can handle the gusts.

If you want a small mast sleeve and rather low-end grunt, the turbo not the NCX s the sail to go - if you can still get one!

best
mariachi76

M, curious to know what your plans are once your Overdrives need replacing ?

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Jasonwave said..

mariachi76 said..
Hi,
if your concern of the moto is lack of low-end grunt, the NCX won't be the solution. NCX have even less low end, and you get stalled in lulls where a turbo would just carry you through. On the other end, turbos max out rather early when the wind picks up.

My solution was ODs - have them in all sizes, and while in the low end they have a bit less grunt than the turbo, in the top end they are just phenomenal in translating gusts into speed. That being said, I rig my overdrives always a size bigger to have the low-end punch, but still can handle the gusts.

If you want a small mast sleeve and rather low-end grunt, the turbo not the NCX s the sail to go - if you can still get one!

best
mariachi76

M, curious to know what your plans are once your Overdrives need replacing

. Shallow water the Motos are OK. My 7.2m is higher aspect than the turbos which means a shorter boom. I find them more balanced to gybe. I don't think the bottom end is as good. They are more suited to overpowered sailing. The few times I have sailed them very powered on Lake Macquarie they had good control.
I have a 6.2m M2 OD. I was talking to Severne re replacements and they said it was a really lovely sail and to sail it till it dies..
My 5.5 - 5m are Mach2 so I'll probably replace them with a later Mach. With the amount of use they get I'll have probably retired from speed sailing by the time they die.
Atm I have a 7.5m Turbo - 7 2 Moto - 6.5m Turbo I use in chop and flatwater.
As the wind picks up I use 5.7m - 5m Gators , 4.5m Blade in chop. I have an old Sailworks 4.2m Revo if I want to sail 25kts plus on the lake although I haven't used it for years.

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aeroegnr said..

jn1 said..
^^ I heard the Severne ROTAG's are good

It's a shame they only work in one direction

No no no. Bad marketing words. Ben would sack you. "Unique Asymmetrical design using our 100% Ylp-X technology, which maximises stability and forward drive. An excellent compliment to our Gator sail."

HNY

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Jasonwave said..

mariachi76 said..
Hi,
if your concern of the moto is lack of low-end grunt, the NCX won't be the solution. NCX have even less low end, and you get stalled in lulls where a turbo would just carry you through. On the other end, turbos max out rather early when the wind picks up.

My solution was ODs - have them in all sizes, and while in the low end they have a bit less grunt than the turbo, in the top end they are just phenomenal in translating gusts into speed. That being said, I rig my overdrives always a size bigger to have the low-end punch, but still can handle the gusts.

If you want a small mast sleeve and rather low-end grunt, the turbo not the NCX s the sail to go - if you can still get one!

best
mariachi76

M, curious to know what your plans are once your Overdrives need replacing ?

Good question which so have asked myself a year ago. My main OD size are 7.0 and 7.8, both from the M2 generation and with quite cosmetic wear, but still good. As an answer - earlier this year I bought some of the last 7.0/7.8 M4 on sale, so I do have backups and should be good for many years still. My 8.6 which I also use quite often beginning/end of season has some wear too, and I just bought an 8.6 Mach 5 on sale - but didn't have any chance to try it yet.
My OD 6.2 and 5.5 I use very rarely - basically here in the SF Bay Area when the wind is strong enough for 6.2 or 5.5 (ie 25-30kn), the water is too choppy for slalom (at least for my skills ). So no backup there, I guess to replace the 6.2 I would go for a moto - as said, a more moderate sail like the moto would be ok for these conditions. The 5.5 I would not replace - I bought it used a year ago and never even tried it for lack of wind conditions. At >25kn I would just switch to b&j gear - I have all gators from 6.5/5.5/4.7/4.2/3.7.

Best
mariachi76