Hi: I'm kind of progressing from long old boards to shorter not so old boards with final goal of using my Tabou Rocket 105.

For my weight, I mostly use a slalom 6,7 or slalom 6,0 sail. When windier (more than 15 knots) I try to use a 128L board and the same sails but it feels harder than my long boards with the same sails.

Today it was really choppy and my question is: I have several Wave sails from 5,7 to 4,2 sizes. Is it more adequate to go wave sails in chop and shorter boards or is it only my ignorance? Is a Slalom sail more cumbersome because of shape when sea is tough? Or is just me?

thanks!!!
JP

When it's choppy and gusty, you are probably going to be sheeting out to spill wind as the gusts hit. That can make the board feel very unstable and bounce around. A smaller sail can help a lot to keep sheeted in and add stability. I suggest trying the wave sails and seeing how it feels.

Are you planing in the straps?

Slalom sails feel bigger and heavier because they are . Some people don't like them because of this . I do because they react slower and more predictably at the cost of being heavier . Ps I'm heavy .

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JPBARNA said..
I mostly use a slalom 6,7 or slalom 6,0 sail.

Full on 3-4 cam wide luff tube slalom sail or no cam narrow luff tube 'slalom' sail? If it the former, buy the later instead. Using larger sails is in chop always harder than when its flat, but ging too small means you might not have enough power for your 128l board.
Nico Prien, ride along with Cookie, and others, have sailing in chop videos, google them.

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Grantmac said..
Are you planing in the straps?

Sometimes. with no waves or mild water and up to 20 knots I do. Yesterday with 15 knots and really choppy sea I couldn't even sustain a line more than 20 seconds. no straps. Struggling with pointing the board away from the wind (kept closing in. I know the theory about scissors legs etc and really tried). With the same wind but flat water I would have planned in the footstraps

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PhilUK said..

JPBARNA said..
I mostly use a slalom 6,7 or slalom 6,0 sail.

Full on 3-4 cam wide luff tube slalom sail or no cam narrow luff tube 'slalom' sail? If it the former, buy the later instead. Using larger sails is in chop always harder than when its flat, but ging too small means you might not have enough power for your 128l board.
Nico Prien, ride along with Cookie, and others, have sailing in chop videos, google them.

My 6,7 is a narrow luff tube no cams ( the one I suffered with) and the 6.0 is a wider luff tube with cams. Other question is: I want to learn to waterstart. The 4,60 mast felt massive trying to fly the sail. Drowning in chop. Is the waves sail easier to learn? My biggest wave sail asks for a 4m mast. Thanks!

Sounds like your onto it . Waves are your friend . Use a wave and a little gust and go really down wind , more than you think , as soon as you get a little speed , crank upwind . A big fin helps here . It's a gamble on getting going and losing upwindness .
Its just technical.

Well done for getting into windsurfing, the problem is you are now into one of the sports with the largest learning curves ever. Good thing sometimes as you will never get perfect at it, and by the time you die you'll probably have spent more on boards and sails than you would have on a second house.

Anyway, wait for it to get windier, like 25 knots and rig up a 5m sail and then try water starts, set it a little full so the power is on and off, watch a few videos on it too, you'll drink a lot of water and curse a lot but once you fly that rig and get some wind into it and steer the board off the wind and then get that first lift, well then the world is your oyster. Just remember, push the rig away, sheet in to control the power and once up sheet out, stand up and don't get flung over the front. The water start is all about getting up, then releasing the power and assessing whats next.

Drink your fill and be happy !!!!

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Wind Smurf said..
Well done for getting into windsurfing, the problem is you are now into one of the sports with the largest learning curves ever. Good thing sometimes as you will never get perfect at it, and by the time you die you'll probably have spent more on boards and sails than you would have on a second house.

Anyway, wait for it to get windier, like 25 knots and rig up a 5m sail and then try water starts, set it a little full so the power is on and off, watch a few videos on it too, you'll drink a lot of water and curse a lot but once you fly that rig and get some wind into it and steer the board off the wind and then get that first lift, well then the world is your oyster. Just remember, push the rig away, sheet in to control the power and once up sheet out, stand up and don't get flung over the front. The water start is all about getting up, then releasing the power and assessing whats next.

Drink your fill and be happy !!!!

Hahaha. I became 54 years old yesterday and since the first time I windsurfed and today, more than 30 years have passed by. What I'm new at are short boards and advanced techniques. Give me a long enough board and a 6M sail and I can go back and forth, up hauling and tacking in almost any conditions :-)

I'm really stubborn into learning so I will do it, maybe before 60. Thanks!

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Imax1 said..
Sounds like your onto it . Waves are your friend . Use a wave and a little gust and go really down wind , more than you think , as soon as you get a little speed , crank upwind . A big fin helps here . It's a gamble on getting going and losing upwindness .
Its just technical.

Maybe an added problem is that I'm trying my Mistral Explosion 128L and it is a twitchy and thin rocket. Perhaps I would learn faster going direct to the Tabou 105 (I only weight 66kg and I know I can uphaul on it)

Go for the Rocket.....!!!!!

I've been windsurfing for nearly 39 years, and one thing I've learnt is to use the right gear in the right conditions, it doesn't happen often but when you get it right you really know it and the world feels great. Get it slightly wrong and it's still brilliant, not as comfortable and not as balanced but still good.

Wait until its windy enough, rig up a small no cammed sail and take out the Rocket, sometimes a board that sinks a little is often better for your first water starts.

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Wind Smurf said..
Go for the Rocket.....!!!!!

I've been windsurfing for nearly 39 years, and one thing I've learnt is to use the right gear in the right conditions, it doesn't happen often but when you get it right you really know it and the world feels great. Get it slightly wrong and it's still brilliant, not as comfortable and not as balanced but still good.

Wait until its windy enough, rig up a small no cammed sail and take out the Rocket, sometimes a board that sinks a little is often better for your first water starts.

For my 66 KG and 5,2 M wave sail how much wind is windy enough to learn WS? Thanks!

If the wind is enough to plane, it's enough to waterstart. If you have a spot that's only waist or chest deep use it to practice.

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Mr Milk said..
If the wind is enough to plane, it's enough to waterstart

And in knots? Maybe 15? I'm sure it depends on sail size. I'm targeting wind for my 5.2 m wave sail. Thanks!

This site has a calculator. Suggests about 16-17 knts
Couldn't seem to paste link but google douglass wind calculator

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JPBARNA said..

Mr Milk said..
If the wind is enough to plane, it's enough to waterstart

And in knots? Maybe 15? I'm sure it depends on sail size. I'm targeting wind for my 5.2 m wave sail. Thanks!

Knots is next to useless, because it means so many things to so many people. If you are talking about properly measured wind, then you have to be 10m above surrounding terrain. When I use a cheap hand held anemometer at eye level on the beach it reads about half what the official wind is, but I know it's roughly right because I've checked it against my bike's speedo.
I'm mid 70s in kg and when it reads 5m/s, that's 10 knots and I'm fine with a 6m sail on a 90l board. If it reads 7m/s I'm using 5m. Above 8m/s I can get away with 4.5 and if it gets to 10m/s I'm overpowered and my water starts have both feet in the straps.
It doesn't matter what sail size you use. It's easier to do with small sails. I can't imagine what it would be like to try to get a 12m formula board sail out of the water enough to fly it. The point is that planing strength wind is plenty to water start. Once you know how to do it, wind that is actually sub planing strength is enough, but you have to bend your knees to give the sail maximum leverage.

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When you have been windsfn for a long time, you get very selective. If it's blowing a nice steady 18-23 knots that's what l call magic day Winter storm fronts can be Dicey & you got to rig the right size, for the day.being 93kg can be a problem if the wind drops off.15 knots standing on the shore doesn't always mean its the same further off/shore, usually it's stronger.been caught out lot's of times.I turn 55 years of age today & feeling dangerous.

getting back to topic, sounds like you are progressing.Goodluck.

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Mr Milk said..

JPBARNA said..

Mr Milk said..
If the wind is enough to plane, it's enough to waterstart

And in knots? Maybe 15? I'm sure it depends on sail size. I'm targeting wind for my 5.2 m wave sail. Thanks!

Knots is next to useless, because it means so many things to so many people. If you are talking about properly measured wind, then you have to be 10m above surrounding terrain. When I use a cheap hand held anemometer at eye level on the beach it reads about half what the official wind is, but I know it's roughly right because I've checked it against my bike's speedo.
I'm mid 70s in kg and when it reads 5m/s, that's 10 knots and I'm fine with a 6m sail on a 90l board. If it reads 7m/s I'm using 5m. Above 8m/s I can get away with 4.5 and if it gets to 10m/s I'm overpowered and my water starts have both feet in the straps.
It doesn't matter what sail size you use. It's easier to do with small sails. I can't imagine what it would be like to try to get a 12m formula board sail out of the water enough to fly it. The point is that planing strength wind is plenty to water start. Once you know how to do it, wind that is actually sub planing strength is enough, but you have to bend your knees to give the sail maximum leverage.

The most close figure I Am into knots is the Windfinder app I use to see the forecast. I had never used an anemometer so I use the relative numbers I see there. I keep your advice about planning force enough to water start and I will give it a try when wind arrives. My problem is that we have no wind these days unless is brief storm type that lasts for less than 1 hour and comes with brave waters. Anyway, I will try with my 4,7 sail ASAP. Thanks!

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gavnwend said..

When you have been windsfn for a long time, you get very selective. If it's blowing a nice steady 18-23 knots that's what l call magic day Winter storm fronts can be Dicey & you got to rig the right size, for the day.being 93kg can be a problem if the wind drops off.15 knots standing on the shore doesn't always mean its the same further off/shore, usually it's stronger.been caught out lot's of times.I turn 55 years of age today & feeling dangerous.

getting back to topic, sounds like you are progressing.Goodluck.

So I'm 366 days younger than you. Happy Birthday! The problem trying to improve at windsurfing is that you can't use age as an excuse: the good ones at the beach are old guys even older than me. young people is off this awesome sport.

Yes my wife started windsurfing when she was 50, took her a year or so to water start and another year or so to make a gybes in both directions.
You should be able to water start in less wind than you need to plane.
The technique varies with how powered up you are.
At 66Kg with a 5.2 wave sail, 12 kts is probably around my bottom limit. 10kts maybe if there's the occasional 12kt gust.

The main thing with any water start is board orientation, you already have an understanding of that. For light wind point slightly downwind, for strong wind slightly upwind.
The main cause of failure is lack of orientation, too far downwind, the sail pulls you over the front, too far upwind, the sail stalls and you fall back in the water.
For light wind, you need the boom low, so that you can get as much sail as possible into the wind. You also need to resist the drift downwind. My preferred technique, is to have the back foot in the rear strap, and the front foot kicking against the drift and also helping to lift you out of the water. The higher you go the more sail pressure you can get.

For high wind you need to control the power, here both feet on the board can work, ease the sail up slowly, and get the board moving, downwind drift is probably a blessing here as it releases some pressure. Do a bum drag to build up some speed, then ease up onto the board, whatever you do, don't point downwind until you are in full control.

If you have goldilocks wind, things are much easier. And I guess that would be 15kts to 18kts

The main thing to remember, is to push on the sail and pull with your feet. The natural thing to do is pull on the sail and push with your feet, this will be a total fail.

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JPBARNA said..

PhilUK said..

JPBARNA said..
I mostly use a slalom 6,7 or slalom 6,0 sail.

Full on 3-4 cam wide luff tube slalom sail or no cam narrow luff tube 'slalom' sail? If it the former, buy the later instead. Using larger sails is in chop always harder than when its flat, but ging too small means you might not have enough power for your 128l board.
Nico Prien, ride along with Cookie, and others, have sailing in chop videos, google them.

My 6,7 is a narrow luff tube no cams ( the one I suffered with) and the 6.0 is a wider luff tube with cams. Other question is: I want to learn to waterstart. The 4,60 mast felt massive trying to fly the sail. Drowning in chop. Is the waves sail easier to learn? My biggest wave sail asks for a 4m mast. Thanks!

A buoyancy vest will help

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decrepit said..
Yes my wife started windsurfing when she was 50, took her a year or so to water start and another year or so to make a gybes in both directions.
You should be able to water start in less wind than you need to plane.
The technique varies with how powered up you are.
At 66Kg with a 5.2 wave sail, 12 kts is probably around my bottom limit. 10kts maybe if there's the occasional 12kt gust.

The main thing with any water start is board orientation, you already have an understanding of that. For light wind point slightly downwind, for strong wind slightly upwind.
The main cause of failure is lack of orientation, too far downwind, the sail pulls you over the front, too far upwind, the sail stalls and you fall back in the water.
For light wind, you need the boom low, so that you can get as much sail as possible into the wind. You also need to resist the drift downwind. My preferred technique, is to have the back foot in the rear strap, and the front foot kicking against the drift and also helping to lift you out of the water. The higher you go the more sail pressure you can get.

For high wind you need to control the power, here both feet on the board can work, ease the sail up slowly, and get the board moving, downwind drift is probably a blessing here as it releases some pressure. Do a bum drag to build up some speed, then ease up onto the board, whatever you do, don't point downwind until you are in full control.

If you have goldilocks wind, things are much easier. And I guess that would be 15kts to 18kts

The main thing to remember, is to push on the sail and pull with your feet. The natural thing to do is pull on the sail and push with your feet, this will be a total fail.

One of the main things that I think are not mentioned is body flexibility (more than strength). I'm doing some Yoga sessions to improve. If I can't even flex and reach the posture seating in a couch, I will not do it pushing on a sail :-) the hardest for me is the flexing of the legs enough. The feeling is like stepping onto a huge step, and I feel my flexibility is not enough to do it comfortably. My torso tends to fall back and I feel tension in the back of my legs. I think I have a broad understanding of the concepts, and as you say, the orientation part is really key. The times I've tried it, I once did a waterstart (lots of wind. was like hanging with the straps not to be catapulted and by chance the board went forward with a monkey on it) and other tries I gave up too soon just not to waste a session but as someone said, it is a needed investment for a better future. I live close to the sea so I can give off sailing time to learn. Thanks!

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sboardcrazy said..

JPBARNA said..

PhilUK said..

JPBARNA said..
I mostly use a slalom 6,7 or slalom 6,0 sail.

Full on 3-4 cam wide luff tube slalom sail or no cam narrow luff tube 'slalom' sail? If it the former, buy the later instead. Using larger sails is in chop always harder than when its flat, but ging too small means you might not have enough power for your 128l board.
Nico Prien, ride along with Cookie, and others, have sailing in chop videos, google them.

My 6,7 is a narrow luff tube no cams ( the one I suffered with) and the 6.0 is a wider luff tube with cams. Other question is: I want to learn to waterstart. The 4,60 mast felt massive trying to fly the sail. Drowning in chop. Is the waves sail easier to learn? My biggest wave sail asks for a 4m mast. Thanks!

A buoyancy vest will help

I have a wais Mystic harness that surprised me as adding lift in the water. Is that enough or more is better? Thanks!

Select to expand quote

JPBARNA said..

sboardcrazy said..

JPBARNA said..

PhilUK said..

JPBARNA said..
I mostly use a slalom 6,7 or slalom 6,0 sail.

Full on 3-4 cam wide luff tube slalom sail or no cam narrow luff tube 'slalom' sail? If it the former, buy the later instead. Using larger sails is in chop always harder than when its flat, but ging too small means you might not have enough power for your 128l board.
Nico Prien, ride along with Cookie, and others, have sailing in chop videos, google them.

My 6,7 is a narrow luff tube no cams ( the one I suffered with) and the 6.0 is a wider luff tube with cams. Other question is: I want to learn to waterstart. The 4,60 mast felt massive trying to fly the sail. Drowning in chop. Is the waves sail easier to learn? My biggest wave sail asks for a 4m mast. Thanks!

A buoyancy vest will help

I have a wais Mystic harness that surprised me as adding lift in the water. Is that enough or more is better? Thanks!

Just in case some Guardian of the Grammar wants to make a joke, I meant "waist" not Waze as the GPS, nor Wave as those rolling masses of water, not even weight as the thing that I continually manage to increase in myself, and of course, not wake as the act of stopping dreaming about doing a proper waterstart, but I can't edit the post after time has passed. Sorry.

I also learnt and spent most of the 80s on longboards and there's a big transition which the Explosion probably isn't helping with. Namely, on a longboard (and a long, thin, hard-railed shortboard like the Explosion) you're using the leeward rail a lot to keep upwind and in general give you directional stability. On a modern shortboard you're using the board's planform to get you on a plane but after that you're riding the fin as much as possible and the rest of the board is out of the water. This is cool in chop because you kind of fly over it rather than blasting through it, but it means committing to the harness, to driving through a straighter front leg, and to going pretty darn fast overall. Freestyle and true wave setups are not the same - you'll use the windward rail more, but your Rocket is closer to a slalom setup - fin sensitive.

So I agree with a lot of the advice already - get planing headed much more downwind than you think, and get in the front strap , then back strap, then get the board tilted to leeward and try to get a lot of your pressure going through the fin as you head upwind. Sheeting out will kill your mast base pressure so try to sheet in during gusts instead. As long as you're riding the fin speed is your friend and you'll be able to make sort of a curving back and forth path through the chop without hammering into any of it.

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Awalkspoiled said..
I also learnt and spent most of the 80s on longboards and there's a big transition which the Explosion probably isn't helping with. Namely, on a longboard (and a long, thin, hard-railed shortboard like the Explosion) you're using the leeward rail a lot to keep upwind and in general give you directional stability. On a modern shortboard you're using the board's planform to get you on a plane but after that you're riding the fin as much as possible and the rest of the board is out of the water. This is cool in chop because you kind of fly over it rather than blasting through it, but it means committing to the harness, to driving through a straighter front leg, and to going pretty darn fast overall. Freestyle and true wave setups are not the same - you'll use the windward rail more, but your Rocket is closer to a slalom setup - fin sensitive.

So I agree with a lot of the advice already - get planing headed much more downwind than you think, and get in the front strap , then back strap, then get the board tilted to leeward and try to get a lot of your pressure going through the fin as you head upwind. Sheeting out will kill your mast base pressure so try to sheet in during gusts instead. As long as you're riding the fin speed is your friend and you'll be able to make sort of a curving back and forth path through the chop without hammering into any of it.

I remember the first time feeling on the Rocket was like "someone stole this boards nose". then I found myself getting upwind with no solution and quit. Whit the steps I've done with the Explosion I think I'm ready to give it another try. Looking into the bags that came with my second hand purchases I've found a NP Expression 5.2 sail that looks light and nimble and will use to try to learn to WS. Thank you all for the tips, advice and encouragement! JP