I surf since 1977. For a year I own a S2Maui Venom 7.5m racing sail. Sailed with it twice. I left it at home because my old (wrecked) Ga GTX from 2006 easilly blows this sail away. This sail is rigged on the original Venom100 mast but cannot rotate. I followed all S2Maui instruction films. Tried everything. Contacted S2Maui many times. No result.

Soon I'll post a video clip here. I'll post two more video's on YT. One with both sails performing on the water (basicly the S2Maui refuses to do anything right), the other clip is the clip I sent to the sailmaker showing my settings and the failure to rotate.

Anybody with similar S2Maui Venom problems? Maybe anybody know an answer?? If I grind the camber of this new sail(), I am afraid it won't be enough as the luff of the sail is hard as rock.

I don't have Venoms but are the mast and sail from the same year / era ? Sometimes masts evolve over the years so an old mast won't work on a new sail or vice versa.

check the batten ends that sit into the cambers, they might have a spacer on them, usually little plastic rectangles with a hole that the batten goes through.

If there are any on the end then take them off, this might help.
Also if its from a newer era then maybe lots more downhaul, they are supposed to twist almost down to the boom.

Post some pictures of it rigged too.

I would like to post some video content to show how bad the problem is. But as I am new here I cannot post links yet. Hope to post video content soon.

Also is it the right diameter mast ? With the right diameter mast cams ? Probably is but there are some rd masts out there that the last person may have used ?

Try a RDM mast.

The thinner diameter should work as the cams on the Maui are narrower.

Do you have any previous experience with full on race sails, what do you mean when you say that it will not rotate, how do you test that?

That sail appears to require very very little downhaul compared with most race sails - cams do a lot of the shaping - and may need some kind of MDM mast. Looks like it would be easy to over-downhaul which would lock up the cams as badly as under-downhauling. It also needs a good hard pop to rotate when rigged correctly. Take a look at this video -

If yours is a 2016 they do not rotate very good even with the right mast ,the 2017 up however is a different story ,they fixed that problem,being a 7'5 it sounds like a older model as they went to 7'7 ,
my 6'3 2016 has 8 battens so it needs a good amount of backhand pull to rotate on the gybe s .
my 2017 are a lot easier ,I have the 7'0 ,in 2019 they went to 7 battens ,nicer sail I feel ,I have 7'7 and 8'4 mauis have big cams
i have heard of people changing the cams to RDM ones and using RDM 's on them ,it might work but them you run the risk of loosing your top end ,

Make sure there is at least 2cm gap betweeen the back of the sail and boom.

All those loverly bent battens has to go somewhere when the sail rotates and it results in the back of the sail moving outwards if it's touching the boom then the battens have to distort into an "S" shape to allow for the transition.

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sboardcrazy said..
I don't have Venoms but are the mast and sail from the same year / era ? Sometimes masts evolve over the years so an old mast won't work on a new sail or vice versa.

I asked S2Maui in Hawaii multiple times as the mast clearly is WAY to stiff for this sail. The Dutch importer supplied me with this sail and mast combi, both as 2022. I do believe they are both 2022. S2Maui don't give any answer on this question which I sent them more than once accompanied with video footage. S2Maui only repeates new requests for even more information then they received allready...

Season 2023 I sailed again with the S2Maui Venom. AWFULL!!! Swapped back to the Gaastra after one hour. I hope I can finally put the video in here now to show how bad it is (previously it was not possible to post the video). Due to a lack of S2Maui to show any interest in the problems with their most expensive sail, I am forced today to use a Dremel tool and hope for the best of it. I regard the newly purchased top of the line slalom sail a total loss if I don't. Season 2022 and 2023 are already lost. It's an older sail now...

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@All: Thank you for your messages. But I see nothing new to try. I did all proposed remedies already. This sail is the 7.5m from 2022 and not an older sail (I read somebody state 2017...). I already saw the YT video with the French girl. I asked S2Maui about her. Did she use a dremel?? Than how can that sail rotate? It's a 6.4m. Possiby the cut differs. Deffinately the 6.4m is rigged on a different length mast. If you check the YT video of the Portuguese importer, you see even his sail doesn' t rotate (The rigging video abruptly stops). Search for "Montagem S2Maui Venom".

The video: streamable.com/u5d6dl

If this works here, I'll post my rigging video (originally intended for S2Maui Hawaii but they don't react). There you see how meticiously (ouch!, no native EN speaker) I followed all instructions and instructional video' s.

Looks like too much downhaul.

Video works.

I think you should try it when there is a bit of wind, you cannot expect to yank it over all the way like that. The rotation of the sail has "two steps" first the battens go to the new leeward side and then the cambers should follow and pop over too, when there is a bit of wind (here the sail might still need a slight pull if the wind isn't strong enough).

When testing on land it is better to have the sail on the ground with the belly upwards, then have someone (or something) hold the tip of the sail towards the ground. Now push the mastbase towards the ground (this emulates the wind bending the mast) and the sail should pop right over. If not, then the camber pressure might be too much against the mast.

Below is one of my own sails, where I do the test. You can hopefully see that the rotation happens in "two steps" and that the bending of the towards leewards is enough.

Below Justine does the same test on the Venom (right near the end of film, at about 5 minutes in):

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Aussiegor said..
The video: streamable.com/u5d6dl

If this works here, I'll post my rigging video (originally intended for S2Maui Hawaii but they don't react). There you see how meticiously (ouch!, no native EN speaker) I followed all instructions and instructional video' s.

Looks like you have outhaul tension, loosen off the outhaul and try again looks like it rotates nicely - if you try it on the water (without outhaul tension) may be good??

Hi,
I am using Venom's since 2016. Now I have the same problem as you describe, on the sizes that go on a 460 mast ('22 7.5, 8.2).
I tried everything. Changed DH setting, added shims, changed places, removed them (I am not considering to reduce cam thickness, as the sleeve is not taut and would actually need shimming). The ONLY thing that works is: use a different mast.
Previous masts (up to '21 I think) are OK. More recently, the mast shape was changed (you can spot this easily, as the joint was conical before and is cylindrical now: same amount of play throughout insertion, instead of more play at the start reducing to none with the parts fully inserrted). Along with the joint shape, it seems to me the mast was also modified externaly, and now has a distinct "bottleneck" between the first 60 cms at the base and the upper part. I suspect that the abrupt diameter change in the low cams zone adds up too much stiffness there, so impairing cam rotation (when the mast is loaded as in real life, along its axis, diameter plays a paramount role - we all know RDM masts behave differently despite same IMCS parameters).
To be sure I also carried IMCS testing on my masts. I checked an older ('06) MauiSails mast, which turned out to be right on spec (25 / 9).
An older ('18?) Venom mast resulted 24.5 / 14, so a flex top (!!!) pretty soft.More recent Venom 460's (4 of them) all resulted completely out of spec (26.5 / 14).Now I am considering to get rid of all them (probably would work very well on camless freeslalom sails) and get me a set of Slake MDM masts. The reduced diameter from the base up is supposed to get rid of any excessive stiffness issue in the low cams zone.
Hope this is useful, and let me know what you think.

What makes me mad is the fact that, apart from this rotation issue, the Venom sails can not be blamed at all.
Smaller sails have perfect rotation. The cams of my 6.8 pop by themselves while waterstarting. When stars align and I can find that elusive right setup with my 7.5, or when I rig it on the "older" Venom mast, I obtain decent rotation, along with huge power, lightness on the reach, great control in the gusts ... perfect. And the brand is one that BEFORE THIS ISSUE always provided sails that behaved just perfect since the very first time one pulled them out of the plastic bag ond rigged to the specs with the suggested masts.

Well, like it or not, the cambers were design with enough material so that users can safely grind them down as/when needed, this is from Phil himself:

Really interesting as I had the same problems with my 22 7.5 Venom. Make sure the cams sit really tight on the batten/sail panel. Now they rotate as in the Severne Mach video SurferKris posted. Haven't been on the water since then though. I think my cams were a bit "loose" on the battens which resulted in a rather violent rotation where I had to use excessive force to make them rotate. Wouldn't even rotate like in the SV Mach video, not even close, way better now. At least that's the only plausible explanation why the cams wouldn't rotate that I came up with.

Another Kris

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Krautsurfer said..
Really interesting as I had the same problems with my 22 7.5 Venom. Make sure the cams sit really tight on the batten/sail panel. Now they rotate as in the Severne Mach video SurferKris posted. Haven't been on the water since then though. I think my cams were a bit "loose" on the battens which resulted in a rather violent rotation where I had to use excessive force to make them rotate. Wouldn't even rotate like in the SV Mach video, not even close, way better now. At least that's the only plausible explanation why the cams wouldn't rotate that I came up with.

Another Kris

Hi Kris,
may I ask you what mast are you using?
In my experience there is lots of difference between more recent ('22, '23) masts and older ones. The first are recognizable by the cylindrical coupling, meaning when you put the base and top together you feel the same "play" during the whole process, while older ones with "conical" coupling have more play at start and no play when fully inserted.
Cams on my sails are properly seated, checked that thoroughly. And they are stuck ONLY with latest "cylindrical coupling" 460 masts. Work properly with older ones, also tested with an RRD mast and it's OK that one too. And smaller sails with 430 masts have the best rotation one can dream of.

Hi Geo,

one mast should be 2019 or 2020, the other one I don't know. Got it from a team rider who had the 2020 and 2021 Venoms as well, so could be 2020-2022. But as I tried both masts, rotation is virtually the same. It's not a soft rotation, it is a race sail after all, but at least now it rotates doing the test with someone standing on the top of the sail (as in the linked SV Mach video). In my first 2 sessions with the sail such a rotation was not possible. And the only thing I changed was taking the cams out and inserting them again and pushing them really tight onto the battens. Totally weird! Now I can rotate the sail halfway through with just two fingers. Hopefully in two weeks I can sail them again to see if rotation on the water is any good.

Best regards,
Kris

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Krautsurfer said..
Hi Geo,

one mast should be 2019 or 2020, the other one I don't know. Got it from a team rider who had the 2020 and 2021 Venoms as well, so could be 2020-2022.
...

Hi Kris,
if both masts are same, and one is surely earlier than '22, then both masts are the "older" model with conica junction.
Rotation is anyhow affected not only by mast bend and stiffness, but also by sail shape. The '22 Venom 7.5 and expecially 8.2 have very deep draft under the boom, very round entry and relatively soft batten tips. Put this all together with a flextop-ish mast, and you will end with a sail that requires very precise setting. But it's well worth taking care as that 7.5 once set right is a real joy to sail. To me the "sweet point" is just few mm's less than the 20 cms downhaul spec.
Personally I will address the rotation problem by finding "older" masts again (I had a few, sold them all!) or purchasing the Slake MDM's.

Just had a ride with the almost new 8.2 in marginal conditions (about 13-18kn @ 103 kg). Sail does not rotate like an SV M5 another guy was using (but that was probably on an RDM). At the parking spot where there was barely any wind it won't rotate by pumping the sail. Once on the board with the breeze filling in it rotates instantly and almost smooth. But the 8.2 still needs a few sessions to properly stretch, so rotation should improve. Doing the rotation test at the beach with one guy standing on the top of the sail, full rotation.

Still amazed by the power these sails generate and how light they are.

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Krautsurfer said..
Doing the rotation test at the beach with one guy standing on the top of the sail, full rotation.

There is the solution then. Get someone to bend the mast during the gybe

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PhilUK said..

Krautsurfer said..
Doing the rotation test at the beach with one guy standing on the top of the sail, full rotation.

There is the solution then. Get someone to bend the mast during the gybe

"Someone" replaced by wind when sailing on the ocean

I think I found a solution.
Past Autumn I borrowed 430 and 460 Slake MDM masts, both medium base and medium top, which translates in a 27.5/63/77 for the 460.
Despite specs are supposed to be totally wrong for my '22 S2Maui Venom sails, at "dry" checking (unfortunately I was not able to test on the water) the cambers rotation was a breeze.
This confirmed to me that the reduced diameter in the first 2 cams section leads to better flex and therefore gets rid of the "stuck cams".
In the end, I had an MDM 460 mast manufactured by an Italian supplier. This one is theorically "even worse" by specs than the Slake, being designed as a 62/77. Rotation resulted just fine, shape not perfect (too much slack in the sleeve under the boom), by the way, I added two shims at camber #2 (meaning sanding the cams is NOT the solution).
Here are a couple of brief, ugly vids where you can check cam rotation and sail shape. Venom '22 set as per specs, mast "italian" MDM 460/25/62/77, 2 shims added at cam #2.

So, in the end, my advice is as follows:
if you have cam rotation issues, get an MDM mast.
If you live in Australia or New Zealand probably your best solution is to get a Slake MDM mast. If you live in Europe, where Slake prices are out of question, you can contact me and I can get you the same mast rigged in the 7.5 you see here, or, even better, if we put together a decent order (ask your friends!) we can even have masts manufactured to different specs (a 460/25/63/77 would make for same or better rotation and better sail shape, plus would work nicely with practically every other sail brand on the market - apart from NP).
Otherwise as you see the MDM 460/25/62/77 already behaves much, much better then the original Venom 460.
If you fear that an MDM mast would be too wobbly for a cambered race sail, please consider that the diameter difference is mostly due to recent SDM masts having a "drop" or "bottleneck" shape in the lower sections (up to 60 - 80 cms), from there up it's practically same diameter SDMs and MDMs, and you can judge and decide by yourself how much an effect that smaller (by a mere 6 mm) diameter in the lowest part of the mast may have on rig behaviour on the water.

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ausbinny said..

PhilUK said..

Krautsurfer said..
Doing the rotation test at the beach with one guy standing on the top of the sail, full rotation.

There is the solution then. Get someone to bend the mast during the gybe

"Someone" replaced by wind when sailing on the ocean

Bit late in replying, but the wind puts a lot of pressure in the sail, which isnt the same as someone standing on the tip of the mast. Its a good selling point to show the sail rotating, but doesnt relate to real life forces.

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geoITA said..
I think I found a solution.
...
So, in the end, my advice is as follows:
if you have cam rotation issues, get an MDM mast.
If you live in Australia or New Zealand probably your best solution is to get a Slake MDM mast. If you live in Europe, where Slake prices are out of question, you can contact me ...

I forgot to say that also Tribal Windsurfing has MDM's in their catalogue. That could be another solution for both Europe and Australia.

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geoITA said..

geoITA said..
I think I found a solution.
...
So, in the end, my advice is as follows:
if you have cam rotation issues, get an MDM mast.
If you live in Australia or New Zealand probably your best solution is to get a Slake MDM mast. If you live in Europe, where Slake prices are out of question, you can contact me ...

I forgot to say that also Tribal Windsurfing has MDM's in their catalogue. That could be another solution for both Europe and Australia.

Wouldnt it be cheaper to shave some material off the cam? As in the video SurferKris posted earlier.
Or if thats not possible, check other makes cams to see if they are shorter than yours. eg Duotone have/had different length of cams on their sails iirc. I dont know if their latest adjustable ones are all 1 size or not.