Hi all, I posted this recently in a Kiter forum, then realized, I might get a better understanding if I posted it in a Windesurfers forum, so here it goes:

Kiting (with directional) Manawa (Mauritius), 2 scenarios popped up yesterday that leave me a bit confused. I have read EVERY Right Of Way post on this forum and others, so figure I would just ask the brain trust as they are quite specific. Some right of way comments said I had the wave, others said they had the wave...anyone care to help?

1) Kiter upwind (Port Tack) going out has massive wave and must chicken gybe(about to get crushed and couldnt get over). Windsurfer on wave, but not TOO near crest of wave, surfing from much further out(his wave). Kiter gybes and then is upwind and nearest crest(= my wave with added chicken gybe(wasnt a short tack)). Windsurfer continues multiple top and bottom turns while less than 1 meter away. Kiter (me) has white water nipping at feet while on 7 foot drop. Not able to bottom or top turn; finally able to get some speed and bottom turn past windsurfer and then top turn downwind of windsurfer...from there just broke off. Local Guru tells me it was my wave and I should have been agro. I was not, but it was a bit nerve racking.

2) Kiter going out (me), port tack and upwind of another kiter trying her best to ride probably about 200 feet from the crest. A gybe onto crest would have been beautiful, but would have possibly collided with her lines if she didnt back off. Went over wave with kite high and she never really "caught" the wave...just barely got the outer part of it. Local guru again says its my wave and should have been a bit more aggressive.

Problem for me at this spot is my legs get VERY tired going out the channel and can only muster enough strength for a few wave rides, so losing 2 good waves in one session sucks. Due to my lack of knowledge, i wasn't mean to anyone, but knew that the windsurfer was being an ass regardless(literally so close on a wave with a mast doing top and bottom turns next to me...not very safe...and Im a pretty big guy:))).

What says the experts?

Looking forward to the responses to this, as i recently gybed into a kiter, who technically had right of way, but who was so close behind my sail i never saw him. I received congratulations from all the windsurf crew, obviously.
In my opinion, whether you were in right of way position in either scenario, if you gybed onto a wave that someone was already riding, you would be in the wrong ( also you are already in the wrong for kiting and posting on a windsurf forum! haha)

Don't expect there to be uniform "rules".
There is some local etiquette in different places, that works out the best compromise for everybody concerned.
And this will vary place to place.
Best advice I can give you, is to ask the locals.

My personal feeling is that the person first on the wave and riding it should have right of way.

And any body in danger of getting crunched should also be given way to.

I guess the problems arise when there are a lot of visitors all bringing different ideas with them.
So welcome to total confusion, best bet is do what you did and play safe.
But I feel your pain missing waves. I'm in the same boat with my surfing, I only have the energy to catch a few waves. Giving way to somebody that either misses the wave or wipes out on take offs is a pain, then taking off on the same wave and they actually make it, and I have to pull off, just adds to frustration.

You said originally that they were on the wave, even if you are up wind, if someone is already on the wave it should be theres.

Kites can easily sail more upwind than most windsurfers, I've had kites coming straight at me when I've barely got enough wind to get through a breaking wave whilst going out and theoretically they have right of wave but if you don't have enough power in your rig because theres a strong rip and just enough wind then you cannot change direction and if they are on the wave can change direction and should therefore get out of your way.

Also if you know that the person on the wave is not soo experienced then give them room, go for the next wave.

Firstly I wanna clarify how a windsurfer riding a wave continually performed turns 1m away from a kiter who is upwind of him.....?
But anyway your chicken gybe in #1 is entirely valid and that saved you from getting munched BUT its his wave still. Local guru is on drugs!!
At a 'real' wave spot where there is DTL riding the guy on the wave owns it 100% but not if it means someone heading out gets munched.
= simply be nice. Miss one turn to let the guy get out. But if they do that to let you get out, you don't use that to get a mega jump (= simply be grateful don't abuse it)


#2 same - she had the wave. You are heading out. Yes you can get on it if not interfering with her. But for local guru to say its your wave - what is that bloke on? Seriously....? Is he for real....?

So what happens if your foil winging and are on the wave before it's even there?

Maybe post in waves section. It's all very relative and one perspective can (will) differ from another.

To me: surfer > windsurfer > kitesurfer.

-

My 2 penny's worth.
wave 1. You had no rights to the wave. You snaked it. Understood re. chicken gybe, but someone was already on the wave, leave them be to enjoy their ride. It sounds like the windsurfer was trying to intimidate you to tell you you had been a wanker. That being said it also sounds like he was being a bit of a wanker too.

moral of that wave is chicken gybe all you like but don't try to snake a ride afterwards.

wave 2. Give the less competent person the space they need. You were up wind, wrong tack and not on the wave. Not your wave. Yes you could have snaked the wave and got a good ride, but intimidating a less experienced rider might have led to an accident. ultimately if you are upwind or on the wave first it is your wave, unless there is a local pecking order or there are local rules on turn taking.
Wave hogs are often not well liked, so share the waves fairly, give space, be kind, magnanimous and be generous.

Sounds like you were in the wrong both times.
Where I am from if you are already on the wave you own it.
You can chicken gybe for safety, but you don't get any rights, you need to stay outa the way as best you can and defo not start riding it.

^^^^ +1

No rights to either wave.

I have kiters constantly snaking waves I'm on, nature of the equipment, don't be that guy.

What's a chicken gybe?

When you're heading out but a set is coming and you think you have no chance to make it through.

Can also chicken tack, or chicken duck (jumping in and ducking sail under the wave).

Sounds like that guru is a foreigner living there and claiming to be local, many aggressive people like that jibed upwind of me while i was planing on the wave, they are experienced riders bullying newbies thinking their skills grant them any wave they want. Real locals there usually don't do such acts.

Getting waves is harder and physically more tiring for windsurfers; upwind is weaker, escaping braking wave when you make mistake is harder, usually not planing while kiters and foilers pass full speed and you need to turn back to end of line when all waves are taken (at manawa). So maybe he spent more time and energy than you to get that wave.

Both scenarios don't make sense and you are at wrong at both imo;
1: if you were able to "chicken jibe" behind him that means there was a pretty safe gap between you and him, you could have easily jibed off the wave if you felt in danger when space between you got smaller. If it was so tight and you had to bottom turn in front of him, why top turn?
2: why would she back off a wave she is on when someone jibes 200ft behind her? She probably wouldn't even see you jibe if she was trying hard to ride it looking down the line.
Are your lines 200ft that you hesitate to jibe?
You could have jibed and stayed at the pocket while she would ride the shoulder, i think that would be perfectly fine with her as she wouldn't even know you are there.
But i don't get what the guru is saying here, is he saying "get agro" as jibe behind her, race downwind to the shoulder, bottom turn in front of her and claim "your" wave with a surprise attack?

If someone else is already on a wave you have no rights end of story.
The "local guru" sounds like a local with an agro problem who probably runs with the old school surfing locals get right if way theory... which is bs if someone is already on a wave.

So tanre, is this also the advice on the kiter forum you asked on?

One thought came to me. In the UK the RYA outlines the rules to follow for windsurfing. So does Surfing England (formerly the BSA) for surfing. Now being a Brit I follow rules, if I know what they are, as I am a good little citizen.
BUT, is there an international regulator for wave riding where these rules are written down and agreed?

I assume for the World Tour there are agreements for competitors to follow. I have seen photos of plaques at Waikiki and Margaret River of local rules.
I wonder if Manawa has its own rules that go against tradition, which this local guru is the arbiter.

First, I must thank you all (well most) for the responses. While this truly was actual events, the responses made it kind of a social experiment. You will be all pleased (and me a bit surprised...I must have been biased) to find out the the responses on the Kiter forum turned out to be less hospitable than these responses...Interesting.

Yesterday I spoke to a different "local"(living here for 13 years) and he agreed with what you all said. Safety First. I didn't have the Right of way to either wave. I messed up by being at the crest while the windsurfer was on the wave, but at that point, didnt have much choice, so windsurfer was an ass and possibly thought I was snaking his wave. He said it happens even to him (pretty much pro at both kiting and windsurfing). Learn, be polite.

To address others:
Mark:Firstly I wanna clarify how a windsurfer riding a wave continually performed turns 1m away from a kiter who is upwind of him.....?
I dont see the issue your having here? Picture kiter at crest riding relatively straight cause he cant move. 1M away is a wndsurfer who is doing top and bottom turns. Any diving of kite MAY hit him(probably not due to winds, but too close to try)...until I pickep up speed and was able to use kite to get ahead and then around him. Maybe I dont understand what you dont understand.

Goes to next point:
Sea Lotus:1: if you were able to "chicken jibe" behind him that means there was a pretty safe gap between you and him,

I wasnt "behind him...I was in front of him. My chicken gybe put me upwind and on the crest. He was downwind.

Sea Lotus:you could have easily jibed off the wave if you felt in danger when space between you got smaller.

Even in retrospect, I dont see how hat was remotely a possibility. How? When? With what room? Gybe off the wave? I dont understand. When I gybed, I alread gybed and then there was NO space...so how would I gybe "off the wave?...you mean crash into the windsurfer 1 meter away?...Yeah, I dont think I conveyed what happened if you are not getting the visual. The space was small immediately. What I "could have" done to prevent this is tacked further out and more downwind long beforehand. Once there with the wave starting to break, I was SOL.

Sea Lotus: If it was so tight and you had to bottom turn in front of him, why top turn?
Ahhh.. I think I misunderstood you here. Once I was downwind of him, I did top turn and I was now way on the shoulder and he was far away, but you are right, probably a bad move...guess that was just instinctual.

Sea Lotus:2: why would she back off a wave she is on when someone jibes 200ft behind her? She probably wouldn't even see you jibe if she was trying hard to ride it looking down the line.

Again, not sure you are understanding. No one was behind her. I was upwind and in front of her. Kite lines are abut 78 feet(24M). 2 together 48M, with larger turning radii. If I gybed in front of her my motions and possibly lines MAY have come close to her.

Sea Lotus:You could have jibed and stayed at the pocket while she would ride the shoulder, i think that would be perfectly fine with her as she wouldn't even know you are there.
\Here, I think the others are correct, it was her wave even if she was way out on the shoulder. After hearing the comments here, I think it would have been at the least rude for me to take it. She probably would have been scared off.

Sea Lotus:But i don't get what the guru is saying here, is he saying "get agro" as jibe behind her, race downwind to the shoulder, bottom turn in front of her and claim "your" wave with a surprise attack?

I was in front and upwind. Eventually, maybe some bottom turns would have been in her way...who knows.

Thanks all...learning experience

Local rules may differ from universal ones.

In the end, we all need to act in a way that's the safest for all.

Missing a wave is frustrating but safer than hitting or being hit by someone.

Whistling works well at letting people know you're coming in from behind.

Sorry my terminology is not good, in these scenarios what i mean by "behind" is from perspective of the riders already on the wave.
Rider is facing and riding in down the line, so her direction is cross-downwind, in her perspective you are behind her if you are upwind of her as she needs to turn her head and look back at the opposite direction she is riding to see you.
So when i say "behind" on the same wave i mean "upwind". Like when a surfer downwind drops in "in front" of another surfer already riding upwind (at manawa).

I assumed there was a safe distance between you as you mentioned he was not too close to crest and you jibed on the crest, if you were able to jibe in at that distance and steepness i assumed you could jibe off too, but sure things might have gotten difficult quickly especially if he was being aggressive.

the fact you have to ask is the big worry here. i assumed that the kiters that snaked waves did so intentionally being cocks, so your telling us there's guys out there that are genuinely oblivious to the fact they're dropping in?? dam it's worse than we thought

i've never seen a kite turn on to a wave a windsurfer was riding that wasn't purely a snake move. most don't and have a respectful understanding of the rules. sounds super suss what you've explained.

stay away from the crest, it sounds like a dangerous place for you and everyone already on the wave.

I got as far as the first paragraph, then I assumed it was another kiter come here again to have a little cry.
Just stay minimum 300m away from all windsurfers, if one comes out where you are move 300m away

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tanre said..
Local Guru tells me it was my wave and I should have been agro. I was not, but it was a bit nerve racking.
'
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Problem for me at this spot is my legs get VERY tired going out the channel and can only muster enough strength for a few wave rides, so losing 2 good waves in one session sucks. Due to my lack of knowledge, i wasn't mean to anyone, but knew that the windsurfer was being an ass regardless(literally so close on a wave with a mast doing top and bottom turns next to me...not very safe...and Im a pretty big guy:))).

Local Guru sounds like a right arse.
Did the windsurfer know you struggle? Doubt it. He might just have thought another big guy kiting being an arse.
The others were on their wave, perhaps you should have chicken gybed earlier and stayed off the wave completely.

also when heading back out go around the peak. it's not the duty of the person on the wave to kick off because your the muppet that cuts inside and get themselves into trouble.

it's not about reading a rule book word for word, it's about respecting other riders. do you surf? apply the same rules.

really sounds like you should not be out there.

I've wave sailed Manawa. It was pretty hectic out there with windsurfers and kiters both jockeying for waves. Most were pretty good, with a good understanding of the rules and good manners.

The so called Guru either has no clue or is a classic selfish twat.

The rules are simple.

First rider on the wave has right of way.

If two riders are trying to catch the wave at the same time, then the rider inside has right of way.

When going out, try to avoid riders on a wave, by using the channel.

If you don't know these rules, you shouldn't be out there.

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John340 said..
I've wave sailed Manawa. It was pretty hectic out there with windsurfers and kiters both jockeying for waves. Most were pretty good, with a good understanding of the rules and good manners.

The so called Guru either has no clue or is a classic selfish twat.

The rules are simple.

First rider on the wave has right of way.

If two riders are trying to catch the wave at the same time, then the rider inside has right of way.

When going out, try to avoid riders on a wave, by using the channel.

If you don't know these rules, you shouldn't be out there.

I agree with this.
I am a kiter and have kited Manawa.

As I can often get upwind heaps better than a lot of windsurfers and usually tack rather than gybe, I often won't go half as far out to sea as they do, so can get closer to the peak easier out the back but if there is a windsurfer coming in, cutting upwind and already on the swell that is building to form a wave, it is his/hers even if they are 100mtrs downwind IMO.

First on the wave/swell.

This comes up time and again because rules vary depending on the type of watersport sport you do - and then there are local variations, specific to local wave breaks.

In windsurfing we have racing rules and then we have wave rules. In course racing the guy on starboard tack has right of way over the guy on port, but in wavesailing the guy coming in must give way the the guy heading out. So if the wind is from the left, then the guy heading out is on port and he only has right of way over someone coming in if both sailors are agreeing to wavesailing rules.


In kiting, the guy launching has right of way over the guy coming ashore, but once on the water, the guy coming in (on the wave) has right of way of the guy heading out. So that's the opposite from our windsurfing wave rules, and starboard tack trumping port tack doesn't apply either.


When you then get into the niceties of wavesailing, it gets more complicated. Who's wave is it? Sometimes surfing rules apply and sometimes they don't, and in most tourist places the guy who shouts loudest often gets his way. There is an additional rule which says the Italians are allowed to shout loudest - although I might have made that up.


In truth, most people on the water don't seem to know what rules they are sailing to. Rider beware.

In the modern age of varied watersports, the real issue is that kites and foils and windsurfers all sail at different angles on the wind, and then want to take a different line on the wave face.
Segregation or zoning is the best answer.

Am a wave kiter and windsurfer and agree 100% with the above. As a wave kiter I was taught by wave pros many years ago to simply keep clear of windsurfers on the etiquette basis that kiters have an easier time and can generally just spin around and catch another wave at will. A windsurfer has less options especially if slogging underpowered as wave riders tend to be in lighter conditions. In the pecking order on that basis a windsurfer should keep clear of surfers, but that mix is rarer.

As I kiter I catch dozens more waves than when on a windsurf, and stay out longer. Its blatant when I am kiting with windsurfer mates. The etiquette seems obvious.
Out at Manawa its not as if there is a shortage of waves but it does get crazy busy with a mix of abilities and egos - and not the kinda place you want to be worried about strict rights of way. Going down can be scary out there. But for me being tired/lazy does not allow you to be an ass and shout out your rights in that location. Just spin your kite around, get as far out the way as possible and let the windsurfer thru with a smile and take a later wave. It takes a minute.

as a windsurfer, when there is a kiter too close I worry about where those friggin kite and lines are. It may seem obvious to the kiter where his kite is but to the windsurfer its like having flies around you. Add the pressure of a wave on top and for me its just poor form for a kiter to get close to or in the path of a windsurfer, period.

All that said, Manawa is one of the rare spots in my experience where this can be a problem, simply by over crowding when its easier conditions out there.

The more challenging One Eye next door sees less traffic and the line up is wider.
one of the most beautiful spots in the world to be out there, kite or windsurfer, enjoy !

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Basher said..
This comes up time and again because rules vary depending on the type of watersport sport you do - and then there are local variations, specific to local wave breaks.

In windsurfing we have racing rules and then we have wave rules. In course racing the guy on starboard tack has right of way over the guy on port, but in wavesailing the guy coming in must give way the the guy heading out. So if the wind is from the left, then the guy heading out is on port and he only has right of way over someone coming in if both sailors are agreeing to wavesailing rules.


In kiting, the guy launching has right of way over the guy coming ashore, but once on the water, the guy coming in (on the wave) has right of way of the guy heading out. So that's the opposite from our windsurfing wave rules, and starboard tack trumping port tack doesn't apply either.


When you then get into the niceties of wavesailing, it gets more complicated. Who's wave is it? Sometimes surfing rules apply and sometimes they don't, and in most tourist places the guy who shouts loudest often gets his way. There is an additional rule which says the Italians are allowed to shout loudest - although I might have made that up.


In truth, most people on the water don't seem to know what rules they are sailing to. Rider beware.

In the modern age of varied watersports, the real issue is that kites and foils and windsurfers all sail at different angles on the wind, and then want to take a different line on the wave face.
Segregation or zoning is the best answer.

Hi don't totally agree with this if the wind is from the left and the guy heading out is on port ,you say he has right of way ??,I agree he has right of way if he is slogging and may wear a wave on the head heading out.but if both sailors are powered up the sailor on starboard as right of way.and the sailor on port if powered up should sail downwind to allow the sailor on starboard right of way.

If you are on the wave first you own it.
If someone is heading out through the break when you are riding you go round them.
If you are the one heading out you pick a line that does not mess up someone's wave, but if you can't, you can expect the rider to go around you . This isn't really the same thing as having a "right of way"
All this is easy and apparent in locations with groundswell waves.
A lot of right of way rules are messed up by locations with crap waves( think south coast UK) that are often more like big chop. It is much more difficult to define things in these locations and then Sailors from these beaches travel and take their habits with them. In my experience they soon learn though, like I said, it isn't hard, more like common sense really.