What makes for a good racing scene?
What works?
What doesn't?

I've seen in another thread, and from chats with locals that there is still interest in racing... the seabreeze threads about racing get 1000's of views, so there is still interest in racing, but the number of races on offer is shrinking.

I've been at some great events organised by Windsurfing NSW / Marmong Point Sailing Club with over 20 mixed fin/foil/wing racers lately. I've also been at some events with 3 people in attendance.

In my view a few things that seem to work:
Flexible weekend racing on SAT or SUN depending on the forecast
Not relying on students/youth etc who have other commitments like weekend jobs, study etc
Associating with a sailing club that has shared facilities and heaps of cash (RQYS)
or a dedicated windsurfing club with history (MPSC)
Easy parking
Focus on easy racing to get more people in attendance
But at the same time serious racers don't want to wait around for slow pokes
Volunteers
Cheap... but it's tricky because good events cost money to organise - especially with restrictive insurance


What is your experience?

100K in prize money should get people motivated

Sadly the drop-off in participation in local/regional racing events is not unique to NSW. In fact, judging from the number of events and people you still manage to get on the starting line, you guys seem to be doing reasonably well, considering!

The situation here (US East Coast) is much more dire; there is hardly any regular racing around here anymore, of course with some local exceptions.

The only things that still seems to work around here in terms of attracting reasonable numbers, are: (i) low-entry long-distance type races like OBX Wind (somewhat styled on Defi wind, but far from the numbers that flock to Gruissan of course), and (ii) mixed wing/wind foil (and if windy enough, even fin) racing at local/regional level on a reasonably accessible course (figure 8 or slightly downwind slalom type courses; pure upwind/downwind racing is usually too hard to level the playing field between various types of gear and levels).

Otherwise agree with much of the points raised by Berowne.

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choco said..
100K in prize money should get people motivated

lol even PWA can't get that kind of money together anymore

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bel29 said..

choco said..
100K in prize money should get people motivated

lol even PWA can't get that kind of money together anymore

That's correct, even obscure sports have bigger prize money, pro windsurfing scene needs to step up

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choco said..

bel29 said..

choco said..
100K in prize money should get people motivated

lol even PWA can't get that kind of money together anymore

That's correct, even obscure sports have bigger prize money, pro windsurfing scene needs to step up

And where is the money going to come from?

If "obscure" (ie smaller) sports have more prize money then it seems obvious that prize money doesn't increase participation. If it did, then those obscure sports with big prizemoney wouldn't be obscure, they'd be prominent.

Why would prizemoney increase participation? 95% of people know they won't win. Five percent of people think they can win and often put so much into it they drive the rest away because they can't compete.

Look at the wider world of sailing. The most popular classes have no prizemoney. The classes with prizemoney are not popular.

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Chris 249 said..

choco said..

bel29 said..

choco said..
100K in prize money should get people motivated

lol even PWA can't get that kind of money together anymore

That's correct, even obscure sports have bigger prize money, pro windsurfing scene needs to step up

And where is the money going to come from?

If "obscure" (ie smaller) sports have more prize money then it seems obvious that prize money doesn't increase participation. If it did, then those obscure sports with big prizemoney wouldn't be obscure, they'd be prominent.

Why would prizemoney increase participation? 95% of people know they won't win. Five percent of people think they can win and often put so much into it they drive the rest away because they can't compete.

Look at the wider world of sailing. The most popular classes have no prizemoney. The classes with prizemoney are not popular.

Tobacco companies are out, current Ladbrokers, Neds, Sportsbet, Uber, etc, with regards to prize money you break it down to age group and have a cash draw for anyone who enters. With the advent of drones the sport has now become "marketable"

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Chris 249 said..

choco said..

bel29 said..

choco said..
100K in prize money should get people motivated

lol even PWA can't get that kind of money together anymore

That's correct, even obscure sports have bigger prize money, pro windsurfing scene needs to step up

And where is the money going to come from?

If "obscure" (ie smaller) sports have more prize money then it seems obvious that prize money doesn't increase participation. If it did, then those obscure sports with big prizemoney wouldn't be obscure, they'd be prominent.

Why would prizemoney increase participation? 95% of people know they won't win. Five percent of people think they can win and often put so much into it they drive the rest away because they can't compete.

Look at the wider world of sailing. The most popular classes have no prizemoney. The classes with prizemoney are not popular.

At my sailing club we receive 170$ Australian to start and finish a race since increasing the start and finish and placing money the participation has increased.

its very sad to think some need prize money to get motivated to race actually trajic.
the love of any sport be it fin foil wind wing just enjoy the moment the experience and the friendships made.
racing is sooo much fun way more than just sailing like bloody way more and it will improve your ability at the same time.
it doesn't matter where you place you will have fun and have a blast.
i do agree with Berowne there are simple ingredients that make running and make an event successful.
very hard to get volunteers and helpers and this can then jeopardise a series period.
if you love our sport and want to see the windsurfing clubs in this country continue then come and race OR watch them die.

I don't think we need prize money but I think it would be really good if volunteers were paid by the clubs and associations but i also understand most clubs or associations cant afford to pay volunteers. Seems funding is the issue in racing participation.

Classes like the Windsurfer LT need racing to enhance what is a comparatively mundane sailing experience. It's major advantage is that it can be sailed in any wind. Even then only a small percentage of participants are competitive, the rest make up the numbers.

Slalom racing, is comparatively more exciting but needs +13 kt wind and a lots of equipment. A lot of time is spent waiting for wind. Again only a small percentage of participants are competitive.

Foil racing both course and slalom also need a lot of equipment but less wind but are seriously scary to go fast

GPS events like Burrum Windfest are reliant on tide and fickle wind and also need a lot of equipment.

All three need insurance, organizations, support boats and volunteers to run.

Hardly any sailors of dingy sailing classes just sail for fun. The big difference of windsurfing, wind foiling, winging and god forbid even kite surfing is that the majority of participants just do it for fun. They don't need an organized event to do it, just wind and access to water. That's why GPS sailing was so popular in its heyday. You could do it any time anywhere but even GPS sailing is in decline because of an aging demographic and the advantages of wind foiling and winging in terms of time on water.

Analysis of successful racing events / organisations would be instructive:
- LT Worlds / state titles / club racing - large participation, great organisation, very accessible, great social interaction
- Cervantes - unique location, wind, good organisation, great social interaction
- Lake George (Jan / Feb / Mar) - unique location, wind, flat water, large participation, great social interaction
- RQYS - Windsurfing school of excellence, organised lessons, great organisation and facilities
- Burrum Windfest - unique location, good participation, inclusion of foiling classes, good organisation, great social interaction
- Defi Wind - unique location, enormous participation, wind, great organisation, inclusion of foiling classes, great social interaction

The only windsurf racing I have been involved with was initially Mistral OD when I moved down to Poole UK in 1991. They also had a Windsurfer OD fleet as well. It was always on a particular weekday evening and run by volunteers. Just 1 location in Poole harbour. You dont need many to pick a few bouys out to form a course. I stopped doing that when I got more into short board sailing. Bobbing around in 4 knots of wind lost its appeal.

In 2008 Poole slalom kicked off. Either Tue or Thu, and either Sat or Sun depending on the wind forecast. Location depended on the direction forecast. If the wind wasnt forecast at 15+ knots then nothing took place as nobody wants to turn up then hang around just in case the wind picked up. A few shops/donations bought some bouys. Numbers grew and grew and we had 35+. Rabbit beach starts, handicapped with slowest from previous race going 1st. Kit was full slalom to freeride. I bought racier kit as it was fun. It went well for 3-4 years until the wind got fickle 1 year then racing died out. Thats the main criteria for fun racing, reliable wind.

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PhilUK said..
Thats the main criteria for fun racing, reliable wind.

That's been the eternal struggle for our (now) one annual full on regatta. We used to have three 25 years ago. We still do mostly longboards because we might get glass (0 kts) or 15-25. If you use a Formula/Foil kit, one year you are a hero and the next three, you are bobbing around while somebody on a 7.5 and Mistral Superlight (the original one) sails circles around you. About every 3-4 yrs, we get totally skunked and can barely get a race off over the weekend and that totally kills the momentum we'd built up over the preceeding years.

We have several challenges in growing or even maintaining racing locally
- The constant strain of almost every one here preferring short boarding/foiling for freeride but racing on any semi-regular basis requires a longboard. We've done our best to scavenge the great 90s boards when they become available and also charter almost a dozen Windsurfer LTs for our annual race.
- Getting shortboarders to get over their reluctance to give it a go once a year. For some, it's the PTSD of a long weekend and no wind. For others, the fear of being really bad at it.
- Weather. Did I mention weather? We live in a low wind area and it will forever be our burden to bear.

What helps:
- promote, promote, promote. We give away a couple of charters each year to encourage participation. We beg, plead, cajole. Still, it's a challenge each year especially if the forecast isn't encouraging.
- Find a way to get newbies on the water. I find some of the regional foiling events gatekeep by making participation with those with freeride gear impossible. There's almost no path from free-riding to racing outside of dropping major coin on race gear before you even know if you like it.
- Make it a social event, too. A big core of our guests come for the fun as well as the racing.
- A core of volunteers who do this for no logical reason. It would have been easy to pack it up years ago but our chief organizer just keeps making it happen.

I am proud to say that our past event in October was our 45th in a row. We're already making plans for the 46th this year.

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John340 said..
Classes like the Windsurfer LT need racing to enhance what is a comparatively mundane sailing experience. Its major advantage is that it can be sailed in any wind. Even then only a small percentage of participants are competitive, the rest make up the numbers.

Your first sentence is arguable. Personal preference and taste is a funny thing... I often sail the LT for fun (not racing) over my short boards. The LT in 20kts may not be cutting edge but it's anything but mundane!! :)

My main comment is regards the notion of making up numbers. I know what you mean (I think): relatively few are a genuine chance of winning the whole thing. I guess thats true in almost any sporting endeavour, and it's certainly me: in all the classes Ive sailed Ive never won anything major. That doesn't mean I'm not 'competitive' though, just that my closest competition is different. Thats fine by me - I'm not there to win, just to improve and enjoy the thrill and camaraderie of sailing in close quarters with so many other people.

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delmar71 said..

John340 said..
Classes like the Windsurfer LT need racing to enhance what is a comparatively mundane sailing experience. Its major advantage is that it can be sailed in any wind. Even then only a small percentage of participants are competitive, the rest make up the numbers.

Your first sentence is arguable. Personal preference and taste is a funny thing... I often sail the LT for fun (not racing) over my short boards. The LT in 20kts may not be cutting edge but it's anything but mundane!!

I used the phrase "comparatively mundane". I've sailed a Windsurfer OD, Mistral Super light II, Bic Bebop, slalom gear, wave gear and free foil gear in 20kts and I know what I'd rather use.

I think what John meant was that very few racing classes sail for fun. Having been to a few sailing award nights I always asked " How many times do you sail for fun"? It was very rare that someone had. Too hard to get boats onto the beach without an event, no rescue boat and not fun unless competing.

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John340 said..

delmar71 said..

John340 said..
Classes like the Windsurfer LT need racing to enhance what is a comparatively mundane sailing experience. Its major advantage is that it can be sailed in any wind. Even then only a small percentage of participants are competitive, the rest make up the numbers.

Your first sentence is arguable. Personal preference and taste is a funny thing... I often sail the LT for fun (not racing) over my short boards. The LT in 20kts may not be cutting edge but it's anything but mundane!!

I used the phrase "comparatively mundane". I've sailed a Windsurfer OD, Mistral Super light II, Bic Bebop, slalom gear, wave gear and free foil gear in 20kts and I know what I'd rather use.

Sure. I think you make my point: *you* know what *you'd* rather use. One mans mundane is another mans engaging, not that one is mundane, even comparatively, in its essence. I know what I'd rather use: sometimes the LT, sometimes my short boards, regardless of conditions.

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kato said..
I think what John meant was that very few racing classes sail for fun. Having been to a few sailing award nights I always asked " How many times do you sail for fun"? It was very rare that someone had. Too hard to get boats onto the beach without an event, no rescue boat and not fun unless competing.

Hmm not how I read it but yeah that seems true to a degree. I raced cat and dinghy classes and this was true of me (although the hobies used to get a recreational run from time to time). I do sail the LT for fun much more than I did with the boats. I guess the hassle factor is gone: very easy to get on the water. I also enjoy heading out and going for a bit more of an explore rather than just back and forth.
Contrary to some people, I never sail the LT in light air for kicks, thats pretty boring (to me).

A sign of the times I think. I think human nature kicks in. New & exciting water sport toys are now on the scene, people get bored with the same old same old and want to try different things. Things that work better in light winds.

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choco said..

Chris 249 said..

choco said..

bel29 said..

choco said..
100K in prize money should get people motivated

lol even PWA can't get that kind of money together anymore

That's correct, even obscure sports have bigger prize money, pro windsurfing scene needs to step up

And where is the money going to come from?

If "obscure" (ie smaller) sports have more prize money then it seems obvious that prize money doesn't increase participation. If it did, then those obscure sports with big prizemoney wouldn't be obscure, they'd be prominent.

Why would prizemoney increase participation? 95% of people know they won't win. Five percent of people think they can win and often put so much into it they drive the rest away because they can't compete.

Look at the wider world of sailing. The most popular classes have no prizemoney. The classes with prizemoney are not popular.

Tobacco companies are out, current Ladbrokers, Neds, Sportsbet, Uber, etc, with regards to prize money you break it down to age group and have a cash draw for anyone who enters. With the advent of drones the sport has now become "marketable"

Has it? Where does the money come from? If it's easy to get why don't all sports have it and why doesn't the PWA have it?

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len024 said..

Chris 249 said..

choco said..

bel29 said..

choco said..
100K in prize money should get people motivated

lol even PWA can't get that kind of money together anymore

That's correct, even obscure sports have bigger prize money, pro windsurfing scene needs to step up

And where is the money going to come from?

If "obscure" (ie smaller) sports have more prize money then it seems obvious that prize money doesn't increase participation. If it did, then those obscure sports with big prizemoney wouldn't be obscure, they'd be prominent.

Why would prizemoney increase participation? 95% of people know they won't win. Five percent of people think they can win and often put so much into it they drive the rest away because they can't compete.

Look at the wider world of sailing. The most popular classes have no prizemoney. The classes with prizemoney are not popular.

At my sailing club we receive 170$ Australian to start and finish a race since increasing the start and finish and placing money the participation has increased.

Yes, but we know where skiff clubs get their money from and boards don't get access to it. Most boat sailors in NSW also don't sail at the few clubs that give cash to sailors, so it's obviously not a major drawcard to the typical sailor.

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John340 said..
Classes like the Windsurfer LT need racing to enhance what is a comparatively mundane sailing experience.

That's completely subjective. I find LT sailing to be much less mundane than speed or slalom sailing, personally, but that's my own preference.

Sailing is just as subjective as other ways to enjoy ourselves. Some people like whisky, some people like wine. Some people like folk, some people like punk. Some people like living in the country, some love the city. Lots of windsurfers find the flat water sailing that you like to be boring as bat crap.

Sailing itself (on actual boats) is a lot easier for causal people. There are at least a couple places that have once or twice weekly races (beer league) that casually, people can approach and show up at the marina and hop on the boat. I've done it, brought people along, made acquaintances with a couple owners...it's fun.

As others mentioned on East Coast USA, it's not so often. There are a couple big races a year, where you basically need IQFoil gear, within a short drive for me. There are kona or longboard races every now and then but I don't hear about them that far ahead of time. Apparently there's an open foil race near me in a month but I didn't hear about it until someone in person told me about it.

For IQFoil training, I wanted to train with the big names here as I live in the same city, but they practice during the week at like 3pm or something, and it's an hour drive in traffic, so I would miss work to practice, which I haven't done. They do Sundays as well but it hasn't lined up that well with my schedule unfortunately. Other than that, I am unaware of regular meetups for longboarding or otherwise. And most everyone has moved to freeride foiling over longboarding. Every now and then I'll see someone with a full kitted older equipe or something and demonstrate how performant they are, but it's rare. And one time, at a launch near me, there was an LT regatta when I rolled up to park, but I had no awareness of as it was a youth sailing squadron event that I wasn't keyed into. But, those are infrequent.
It'd be cool if there were regular weekly longboard or even freeride foil races for casuals with some kind of handicap system, or at least a way to separately judge race/freeridey foils. Seems like a few people here would be interested maybe, but it's hard to gauge. Probably a much bigger youth turnout than adult.

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Chris 249 said..

John340 said..
Classes like the Windsurfer LT need racing to enhance what is a comparatively mundane sailing experience.

That's completely subjective. I find LT sailing to be much less mundane than speed or slalom sailing, personally, but that's my own preference.

Sailing is just as subjective as other ways to enjoy ourselves. Some people like whisky, some people like wine. Some people like folk, some people like punk. Some people like living in the country, some love the city. Lots of windsurfers find the flat water sailing that you like to be boring as bat crap.

I like all that! But i must say i am staying away from the whisky and wine. Exploring all kinds of flat water fin activity has me enraptured. Committed to get fit and push on.
Long short skinny and wide boards. Mostly light wind, the flatter the better, and just fast enough.

GPS plays a big part for me. Comparing with my brother and recently GPSTC.
Without going to a race, you get a rough idea where you might be in a race.
And there is no choice but to go, to get the numbers you must go to the venues. Such beautiful epic venues where, so far in my experience, very friendly local sailors are there and happy to help.
It is what is currently getting me into sailing much more.

I think an easy to use super platform online, for all disciplines linked through GPS, with bio's, video, comment feeds etc would boost it lots and in turn could lead people to more races.

If you want to race, get out there and organize it yourself. Grassroots.

In Seattle they have Wednesday-after-work races in May and June every year. It's called the City League. It is the longest continuously happening windsurf racing event in the world. It is organized by the local windsurfers, all volunteer. They gather at a local park after work, meet to agree on classes and rules, sometimes have a local boater for committee, and race until the wind dies or it gets dark. A volunteer from the other side of the state (me) scores using the high points system modeled after the US National Racing Tour scoring.

It is a run-whatcha-brung type of event. Longboards, formula boards, and foilboards are all present since winds are generally light in late spring in the Puget Sound area. A typical race will have between 10 and 20 participants. All for fun. A lot of locals hone their skills by racing this way. Most don't care about their scores, but all really want to do well. Why race, after all?

At the end of 8 or 9 weeks a champion is crowned. His/her prize is an extra beer at the local pub.

What doesn't work is public criticism and undermining of volunteers efforts in running events or clubs.

I have seen it happen more than once over the years and it is more toxic to organised windsurfing than a bad forecast.

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cammd said..
What doesn't work is public criticism and undermining of volunteers efforts in running events or clubs.

I have seen it happen more than once over the years and it is more toxic to organised windsurfing than a bad forecast.

Nothing turns volunteers off organising events more that "couch" criticism. If you've got ideas on how an event should run or how it can be better, don't shout about it from the sidelines. step up and help to make it happen. Otherwise you may find said event doesn't run again.

Rant over. Please carry on with the positive ideas on what makes for a great racing scene

Years ago we trialled a handicapped race against the wave v slalom guys. Gave them a head start on an out and back course. Great fun playing the hare chasing the tortoise. Only ran two races as most weren't fit enough to keep going. Btw the tortoises won but only by mm.