Last year I purchased an RRD sail and matching mast.
The shop person turned up with a compact vogue instead of a vogue telling me it was pretty much the same.
I rigged it on the grass behind the shop and was a little bit concerned with how the mast fed into the sleeve (at the top it has to be forced around a fair bit of curve), how it wanted to crinkle up on rigging and then de-rigging it sprung into a horrible crinkled position.
The sales guy assured me that it was normal and being that I had already purchased a sail before returning it and was going for RRD instead with the intention of buying all RRD gear in the future well I tried to put it out of my mind.
Fast forward windy season starting up again and it is bugging me. The sail just does not look right when rigging. I first thought it was the bottom batten so tightened and tested until the battern went against the profile of the sail. Played with outhaul and downhaul. I wrote to RRD last week but no answer there. I also spoke to the shop guy who said it was normal. With my smaller sails, I have a mix of gyoya and gator but in the future, I would like to move back to Severne but most probably will still have to use this sail until it tears.
Anyways picture can you have a look-see and tell me what you think?

looks like a damaged batten, try removing it to inspect.

It doesn't look right in the last image in the crease near the luff.

Looks like you need more batten tension or its broken as elmo said.

More batten tension (,bottom batten) and downhaul needed

As said above, check that the lower batten is okey then tighten. Looks like it needs more downhaul too, but that is easier to see on a flat surface or with the top of the sail lifted from the ground. Check for the amount of loose leech.

This video from RRD might be helpful, for instance they point out to keep the sail of the ground while threading the mast, in order to minimise creasing of the monofilm:

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SurferKris said..
As said above, check that the lower batten is okey then tighten. Looks like it needs more downhaul too, but that is easier to see on a flat surface or with the top of the sail lifted from the ground. Check for the amount of loose leech.

This video from RRD might be helpful, for instance they point out to keep the sail of the ground while threading the mast, in order to minimise creasing of the monofilm:

I'll check out the video now. I've got the sail rigged up in the back garden as the bottom batten looked too far forward to the mast.
I've already removed the batten and had a look, no issues. Can only do half turns on the batten and have tried every half turn up to the point that the batten springs in the other direction

2cm more downhaul that's 34cm on a recommended 28.

what it looks like with more downhaul. Still got it.

de-rigging. I remove the downhaul so very slowly but still it ends up in a state.


Picture of the batten setup. You can see it's two piece. The sail can be folded in half for transport. Great idea but it's not why I bought it.

Here is the bend curve on the sail and the second pic I have a 4.7 gator. Rrd is 5.3.
Issues with the rrd, rigging rde-rgging and those lines in the lower part of the sail.

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Picture of the batten setup. You can see it's two piece. The sail can be folded in half for transport. Great idea but it's not why I bought it

Not for folding the sail.

You have purchased a "convertible" sail which can be set with battens that dont go the full length to the mast. (Or it is some kind of weird replaceable batten ?)

Looks like you just need to adjust the batten tension.

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Here is the bend curve on the sail and the second pic I have a 4.7 gator. Rrd is 5.3.

Hard to compare two different brands - each brand will have their own luff-curve (mast curve).

More luff curve generally speaking give higher skin tension, which tends to be better for maintaining sail shape when the sail is overloaded (such as too-big for the given wind strength); similar technique is used for race sails.

as above, vertical creases are almost always linked to an undertensionsed batten. Looking at the amount of tensioner thread left, you can lengthen the batten still quite a lot (needed to absorb the creases shown)
Some of the low-aspect sails (ie Hot KS3) get a lot of their grunt from that area, lonnngg bottom batten, lot of tension, S-shaping to accomodate...you need to be only a bit careful when rigging/derigging making sure the batten can pass the mast as otherwise you risk breaking the tapered mastside section

For de-rigging, can you fix the head of the sail to the ground with a tent peg through the webbing (if it has an adjustable head) so you can pull the mast out, whilst rotating it?
Is the batten tensioner working ok and actually putting tension into the batten? I had 1 where turning the screw did nothing, the thread was stripped. Is the batten pocket at the luff still intact and doesnt have a hole in it?

I'd say something is giving in the folding batten.
If you're not folding the sail, I would use a one-piece batten to eradicate the potential problem.
The compact idea is good, but I can only see problems coming from it.
If you're not folding the sail in half, I would replace the 2-part battens with solid ones.
One less thing to worry about.

a more sweeping observation could be that only an Italian can come up with something that doesn't crease when folded, but creases tutto bellissimo when unfolded
But ok..battens first, cultural anthropology later

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mathew said..

Picture of the batten setup. You can see it's two piece. The sail can be folded in half for transport. Great idea but it's not why I bought it

Not for folding the sail.

You have purchased a "convertible" sail which can be set with battens that dont go the full length to the mast. (Or it is some kind of weird replaceable batten ?)

Looks like you just need to adjust the batten tension.

Yeah folding the sail.
If your interest here is a link to the latest version
equipment.robertoriccidesigns.com/products/compact-wave-rig-pack/
It is not want I wanted though.

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Doggerland said..
a more sweeping observation could be that only an Italian can come up with something that doesn't crease when folded, but creases tutto bellissimo when unfolded
But ok..battens first, cultural anthropology later

Many moons ago I owned an alpha. Let's say it looked good

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Imax1 said..
I'd say something is giving in the folding batten.
If you're not folding the sail, I would use a one-piece batten to eradicate the potential problem.
The compact idea is good, but I can only see problems coming from it.
If you're not folding the sail in half, I would replace the 2-part battens with solid ones.
One less thing to worry about.

That is a bloody good idea.

The RRD sail is designed to be folded in half vertically when not in use. They have a Dacron vertical panel. You fold the battens in half and then the sail can be folded and rolled and takes up half the space for storage. If you do not need this then keep it rolled like a normal sail and keep the batten in the pockets all the time.

The creases when rigged are from the bottom batten which is also where most sail seam shaping is located.
This batten needs to be tensioned so that the creases when rigged are not there.

Rig the sail properly then tension the batten so the creases just go, try not to over tension it. Its pretty easy as they have the Pryde style ends so you just undo the little butterfly nut thingy at the end and then re-clamp the end fitting back down, might take a few go's to get tension right.

Sails have luff curve and when not tensioned masts are straight. Use a tack tensioning devise if you need to.

These wrinkles stem from too little batten tension in the front section of the sail.

Place all the battens on the same side of mast in the front, i.e. below the mast, when rigging and derigging.

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SurferKris said..
Place all the battens on the same side of mast in the front, i.e. below the mast, when rigging and derigging.

Having said that, it's never pretty scrunching the sail. It makes me weep every time.

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Wind Smurf said..
The RRD sail is designed to be folded in half vertically when not in use. They have a Dacron vertical panel. You fold the battens in half and then the sail can be folded and rolled and takes up half the space for storage. If you do not need this then keep it rolled like a normal sail and keep the batten in the pockets all the time.

Well... there you go... I am schooled.

But ... just ... why... in ... the .. name ... of ... all ... things ... sane ... next thing you know there will be blow-up boards. Oh wait...

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Henners said..

Yeah folding the sail.
If your interest here is a link to the latest version
equipment.robertoriccidesigns.com/products/compact-wave-rig-pack/
It is not want I wanted though.

They mention the large amount of luff curve and batten tension in this test.
www.windsurf.co.uk/rrd-compact-vogue-5-0-2021-test-review/

Seems its not the same as the original Vogue sail. The specs are a lot different.
equipment.robertoriccidesigns.com/products/compact-vogue-y25/
equipment.robertoriccidesigns.com/products/vogue-y25/

If you are unhappy with the sail and what you were told by them saying they are pretty much the same, take it back to the shop.

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mathew said..

Wind Smurf said..
The RRD sail is designed to be folded in half vertically when not in use. They have a Dacron vertical panel. You fold the battens in half and then the sail can be folded and rolled and takes up half the space for storage. If you do not need this then keep it rolled like a normal sail and keep the batten in the pockets all the time.

Well... there you go... I am schooled.

But ... just ... why... in ... the .. name ... of ... all ... things ... sane ... next thing you know there will be blow-up boards. Oh wait...

Here's the thing .... Folding and blow up has it place. For a shop to say a folding sail is the same as a non-folding sail is wrong. Cos it isn't the same. If a folding sail was the same, it would be amazing. Cudos , for them doing this, but if it was as good as a non-folding sail, they would all be doing it. I would buy them...a half size folded sail would be awesome.

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mathew said..

Here is the bend curve on the sail and the second pic I have a 4.7 gator. Rrd is 5.3.

Hard to compare two different brands - each brand will have their own luff-curve (mast curve).

More luff curve generally speaking give higher skin tension, which tends to be better for maintaining sail shape when the sail is overloaded (such as too-big for the given wind strength); similar technique is used for race sails.

I understand. The sail can be rigged with either a 340 plus 60cm extender plus 28cm on the extention or 400 and 28. I put the gator down out of interest b/c I have never owned a sail which has been so difficult to rig. The Luff curve on this sail seems on the extreme side. As for a camber race sail the pocket is big enough to get the mast up to the top which usually means that the fabric is not treated to badly.
I am sure you and other sailers, who have been around for longer, most likely have heaps of experience with sails that have been difficult rig.
I already have a few small crease lines from rigging and derigging which is a bit of a bummer.

As posters above: Folding sail is not the same as non folding sail, looks like the shop person wanted to try to unload some sail they had in stock on you. This should not have happened.

Problem looks like not enough batten tension. But when unhappy with the sail, return it to the shop. I think you would have a hard time selling this one second hand (once you are ready to buy new gear in a couple of years, as opposed to the Vogue you wanted in the first place.

No sail should have vertical wrinkles. Take it to the shop and let them try to get rid of this. If they can't get rid of the wrinkles they should replace it. Don't believe it if they say this is normal.

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Imax1 said..
Having said that, it's never pretty scrunching the sail. It makes me weep every time.

Yes, I agree...
Graham Ezzy recommends that one shouldn't "feed" the mast into the luff, by standing at the boom cut-out. Instead one should only only push from the bottom of the sail while holding on to the tack of the sail, might be worth trying.

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Wind Smurf said..
The RRD sail is designed to be folded in half vertically when not in use. They have a Dacron vertical panel. You fold the battens in half and then the sail can be folded and rolled and takes up half the space for storage. If you do not need this then keep it rolled like a normal sail and keep the batten in the pockets all the time.

The creases when rigged are from the bottom batten which is also where most sail seam shaping is located.
This batten needs to be tensioned so that the creases when rigged are not there.

Rig the sail properly then tension the batten so the creases just go, try not to over tension it. Its pretty easy as they have the Pryde style ends so you just undo the little butterfly nut thingy at the end and then re-clamp the end fitting back down, might take a few go's to get tension right.

Sails have luff curve and when not tensioned masts are straight. Use a tack tensioning devise if you need to.

I tried to retention whilst rigged but I could not get the clamp to sit back down. So I was de-rigging adjusting and de-rigging.
Will give it another go tomorrow and look to see if I can find any videos on Neil Pryde adjustments to see what I am doing wrong
.
Also what is a tack tensioning device?

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SurferKris said..

Imax1 said..
Having said that, it's never pretty scrunching the sail. It makes me weep every time.

Yes, I agree...
Graham Ezzy recommends that one shouldn't "feed" the mast into the luff, by standing at the boom cut-out. Instead one should only only push from the bottom of the sail while holding on to the tack of the sail, might be worth trying.

It's even got a big old handle on the tack to help push the mast up the sleeve but it will only go so far, before I have to go up and feed it in.

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SurferKris said..
Place all the battens on the same side of mast in the front, i.e. below the mast, when rigging and derigging.

This is what happens on de-riggng all the batters where on same side before and as soon as I take the tension off. Sometimes I just want to throw the kit into the bushes and walk away. It sux.