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mr love said..

jusavina said..

mr love said..
Happy to model something for you guys...just need the measurements as I know @#$%^& about raceboards.

380 X 70 cm
Square rails.
Bob's your uncle

380 X 70

A thickness dimension might be handy

Would be faster in red though

There is an updated list or approved raceboards on the IRC website, Additions include a something from Gaastra, an Exocet RS 380 Elite, and the new Phantom 299:
www.sailing.org/41157.php

The minutes of the 2016 International Raceboard AGM, also included this application from the Spanish and French seeking to remove the Production Board Scheme from the Class Rules in favour of a Box Rule Measurement Control method similar to that already in place for the raceboard sails.
www.internationalwindsurfing.com/userfiles/documents/2016_RB_AGM_ESP_Proposal_1.pdf
www.internationalwindsurfing.com/userfiles/documents/2016_RB_AGM_FRA_Proposals.pdf

Unfortunately, the proposal was not approved: For - 7, Against - 15; Abstentions - 2

What well thought out proposals and what a shame they weren't passed. I thought it would be closer; 2:1 against France & Spain is comprehensive. Where to now? I still think we plough on.

Front of the exocet, rear of the phantom, in white.

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regal1 said..
I thought it would be closer; 2:1 against France & Spain is comprehensive.

Would be interested to understand the reason for the strong vote against a box rule. Also interesting that SB have reduced the price for the 377 in Europe since then.

It will be great for you guys in Australia ( and new zealand?) to build boards for your market, the more the merrier.
I only skimmed the thread but it seems a good place to make a few general points.

Board weight. Dont build a board under weight and then weight correct if it any way reduces strength and longevity. Build it to last, you wont regret it. A sensible weight limit is just that sensible and not worth circumventing.

Box rule. Terrible idea. Reason being it leads to weird and wonderful creations that make everything else obsolete. This ( in my view) really is not the point of RACEBOARD. In my world view the Raceboard rule should be one that encourages nice pleasant to use classic raceboards that are reasonably priced, last well and are good and relatively easy to sail in 0-25 knots.
The current raceboard rules are really inadequate, and rely entirely on nobody bothering to make raceboards...... if the class dispense with the production board rule it would be a devastatingly bad move, in the absence of a proper measurement rule the above scenario erupts. It initally seems attractive/exciting but it soon leads to a crap class that nobody sails.I completely agree that the production board only rule should go, but only if/when an adequate measurement control system is implemented in its place. One that is loose enough to give some variation in designs for different weights and styles of sailors but tight enough to keep the boards looking and behaving like "classic" longboards.

The administrative argument against measurement is the time and the pain in the arse of actually doing the measuring. We think this could be navigated around fairly easily by anybody who makes and wants to race a board, publishing the control measurment dimensions on a dedicated website. Then enabling all competitors at events with the power to check any other competitors board dimensions against the published sizes and rules post racing. It being a stipulation that all competitors MUST make their board available for checking. Any disputes then to be referred to race management. Basically self policing.

Anyway... have a really good think of where you can go with building boards in AUS, the class you want to sail and how you want to encourage builders and competitors to participate. Now is the time to make the strategic decisions about what you are doing.. before investing in tooling and time!

We have been thinking about this a lot lately, so if anyone wants to contact either myself (Matthew Burridge, info@demonsails.co.uk) or Sean Cox directly then feel free, We obviously have a vested interest, but that interest is in successful vibrant racing fleets.

Good luck and crack on!

Interesting, constructive points. In your opinion, what is a proper measurement rule for Raceboards? Given you are closer to the european Raceboard heartland, do you think the French, Spanish or alternative measuring proposals have a chance to be approved this year? My understanding is that last year's proposals were sprung on the delegates and that's why they were voted down.

If you want to build low volume in Australia then definitely talk to windrush (brett burvill) and "composite components" (glen oldfield). Both these guys do awesome work at reasonable prices and we're at the core of foiling moth development way back and still are behind the scenes. To pick a design maybe you have a regatta and everyone brings their own board and also has one race on the new designs and then there is a vote to pick the design at the end. Btw I am not into raceboards and won't get one but this is interesting.

Are Raceboards currently solid foam core?
Is anyone looking at the Hollow build technology like Patrik is doing with the airinside designs?

Hollow is the way to go I reckon. The Spanish just made a under weight board which is hollow and Dutch Surfers Group are doing it.
Steve Allen talks about the hollow Patriks in this video

Jim French did some hollow boards 20+ yrs ago, I don't know much about them, these images have previously been posted on seabreeze...




Full carbon hollow board, with centreboard. Vgc, no dings. Great upwind and downwind board

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JustinL said..
Hollow is the way to go I reckon. The Spanish just made a under weight board which is hollow and Dutch Surfers Group are doing it.
Steve Allen talks about the hollow Patriks in this video

When do they hit the market?

I have a copy of a Jim french raceboard, hollow carbon fibre....looking for uni parts so I can try it out one day....
I also think the Surfersgroup SGR 380 is hollow....

Why were the old thermoformed boards from the early 90s the lightest, but very durable?
Has board manufacture (not design) regressed?

I got to sail a hollow board during a junior race series in 1988. I'm pretty sure it was designed and built by Bob McTavish and branded Bombora. And no, it wan't blow moulded PE , it was some sort of composite construction. They made just enough to qualify as a production board. It was nice and light but unfortunately it had a hole and I had to empty about a bucket of water out of it after each race. I didn't do very well
I think they also made a hollow slalom board but I could be wrong. They didn't seem to take off.

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windsurftom said..
Why were the old thermoformed boards from the early 90s the lightest, but very durable?
Has board manufacture (not design) regressed?

Being the owner of two modern raceboards and one from the 90's I would have to say quality of the manufacturing has regressed. In my experience the quality of modern product is very poor or disappointing is another word that comes to mind. As I write this one of them is back at the repairers getting another part of the deck that has failed rebuilt, and when I say back at the repairers they have both been there before with the same failure in a different location. I don't believe it is a design fault or even a construction technique fault its just the quality of the workmanship at fault.

I hope the class rules change to reduce barriers to entry for new manufacturers or cottage manufacturer's to encourage a greater diversity of boards to choose from.

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fjdoug said..

Jim French did some hollow boards 20+ yrs ago, I don't know much about them, these images have previously been posted on seabreeze...




Full carbon hollow board, with centreboard. Vgc, no dings. Great upwind and downwind board

the bottom JF hollow board looks like a D2/DIV2/Division II board
there are other hollow boards in that "division" of longboard

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windsurftom said..
Why were the old thermoformed boards from the early 90s the lightest, but very durable?
Has board manufacture (not design) regressed?

i own 2 thermo formed boards that are still holding up excellent , and 2 epoxy race boards that are also holding up ok,the thermo boards are tougher but you can flex them a lot more than a modern carbon race board ,which is why they can build them light and stiff but fragile.ask the racers can the manufacturer add in more strength but it will weigh more and they will say no, as it will last a season and then they will sell the problem to someone else.16 kilo weight limit would help the build quality.

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grich62 said..

windsurftom said..
Why were the old thermoformed boards from the early 90s the lightest, but very durable?
Has board manufacture (not design) regressed?

i own 2 thermo formed boards that are still holding up excellent , and 2 epoxy race boards that are also holding up ok,the thermo boards are tougher but you can flex them a lot more than a modern carbon race board ,which is why they can build them light and stiff but fragile.ask the racers can the manufacturer add in more strength but it will weigh more and they will say no, as it will last a season and then they will sell the problem to someone else.16 kilo weight limit would help the build quality.

Great idea is increase the weight limit slightly, the composite boards do not seem to be holding up for alot of people

interesting to see this thread go forward...why do race boards have so much volume ?

if they had the same plan shape, length and width but were thinner what would happen ?

It would depend on rider weight of course but what does the extra volume do ?

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normster said..
interesting to see this thread go forward...why do race boards have so much volume ?

if they had the same plan shape, length and width but were thinner what would happen ?

It would depend on rider weight of course but what does the extra volume do ?

i have 1 old astrasurf eliminator ,1 sr250l speed race board,and a mistral one design .the first two boards are mark as 250 liters,and the mystral as 237 liters .the eliminator has more volume than the speed as side by side it is a lot thicker in the deck than the speed and a bit longer but not as wide. the eliminator is a lot more technical to ride but can be faster in certain wind conditions . as i am a heavy weight it floats me the best ,the speed and the mistral are very good handling boards and easy to sail .but the speed floats me better than the mistral but the mistral is more fun in the heavy winds.
the speed is the widest at 635 mm and the mistral and eliminator at 625 mm
my thoughts are that if the board is wider it will be better in lighter winds but lose the advantage in stronger winds on a reach ,up wind the eliminator is pretty fast as it is very straight in the plan shape and square tailed, the thicker deck also gives more side ways lift and makes it easier to roll the board over,it also very fast of the wind but you can feel the flex when going and hard to gibe. the speed is quite heavy and accelerates slower but is very stiff and easy to tack and gibe , the mistral is just great on all points of sail but you can feel the difference in volume when tacking also you can watch the nose flexing when fanging it
the extra volume of the eliminator makes it float better in light winds ,this is easier for when you are at the start line when jostling for a good position ,or just floating around when the wind dies.

I think race board would be a great Olympic class. No one manufacturer which satisfies the antitrust issues and will get going in any conditions between 5 knots and 30 knots. The class is very popular as well and growing.

Want raceboard to increase in popularity make a second something for the +85kg people to be competitive on (not just allow bigger sail). Something similar to what starboard did with the two formula boards. & it cant just be more volume it has to be design changes & maybe opening up the size restrictions, something that lets heavy guys get going on the downwind cause that's where you really suck being big (& why i havent touched a raceboard since the 90's even though I enjoyed sailing them).

no class will ever make decent improvements while it is limited to a monopoly of a few production boards, open it to custom designs but why would anyone bother when they arent allowed. The prices now allow for custom shapers to become viable again, why would you manufacture overseas when we've seen in boards, masts & sails quality control generally isnt the greatest.

& almost all hollow boards ever have leaked.

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RichardG said..
I think race board would be a great Olympic class. No one manufacturer which satisfies the antitrust issues and will get going in any conditions between 5 knots and 30 knots. The class is very popular as well and growing.

This.

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mkseven said..
& almost all hollow boards ever have leaked.

My hollow board doesn't leak ever. Far preferable than a core that is water absorbant to my mind.

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mkseven said..
Want raceboard to increase in popularity make a second something for the +85kg people to be competitive on (not just allow bigger sail). Something similar to what starboard did with the two formula boards. & it cant just be more volume it has to be design changes & maybe opening up the size restrictions, something that lets heavy guys get going on the downwind cause that's where you really suck being big (& why i havent touched a raceboard since the 90's even though I enjoyed sailing them).

no class will ever make decent improvements while it is limited to a monopoly of a few production boards, open it to custom designs but why would anyone bother when they arent allowed. The prices now allow for custom shapers to become viable again, why would you manufacture overseas when we've seen in boards, masts & sails quality control generally isnt the greatest.

& almost all hollow boards ever have leaked.

custom boards opened up racing from Really crap boards to some great designs ,but then one bloke brought a course slalom board out and that was the end of race boards ,they died and were not popular again for a long time, this also killed our sport as it got to technical and expensive for the ordinary sailor .rules would be better if they suited heavy and light racers and made it fairer. with a build weight minimum so someone could buy a second hand board that will last .
i don,t no if a bigger board would help us fatty's or hinder ,may be a change in the center board and rear fins to a smaller size for light weights would be fairer along with less sail .someone should be able to work out a handy cap system, it would have to include one designs in the formula.

Hi Justin, Can you contact me directly you should have my number. I have some info that I think may be useful, but don't want to put anyones noses out of joint by posting publicly. Thanks Pete.

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saltyheaven said..

mkseven said..
& almost all hollow boards ever have leaked.

My hollow board doesn't leak ever. Far preferable than a core that is water absorbant to my mind.

agreed they should be better than absorbant core & it's good to hear that some actually work