OK, so I thought I would be clever and practice rigging my sail for the first time in the back yard so that i didn't embarrass myself in public. I am glad I did because i realised quickly that i really, REALLY suck at it.

Firstly, the battens in the sail all twisted under the mast and i couldn't get them to straighten out no matter how hard i tried. The luff was also twisted around the mast at first - this improved but not entirely after trying to downhaul the sail... i also shredded my hands trying to put enough tension on the downhaul rope. How do you people do this??? Even if i could get enough tension into the downhaul, my hands would be so sore that i would have to pack up straight away because i wouldn't be able to hold onto the boom anyway.

I eventually managed to get the boom onto the mast - but it was tricky because the luff of the sail was pushed under the mast and pretty much touching it (from the battens pushing it under) and even after adjusting the outhaul the luff was still not straightened out and the battens were still pushing under the mast. I'm pretty sure that's not meant to happen...

I am well aware that this is an operator issue and not the equipment... I think I had the mast and extension at the right lengths etc, the sail calls for a 370/17 mast (mine is 370) and the luff length is 388 so I had the extension set to 20cm (it was that or 15cm). Boom was 150cm and I had that right too I think.

Any tips that anyone can provide would be much appreciated... I definitely want to get this right before making a complete goose of myself in public... thanks in advance

What is the sail? And the mast?
You most likely cannot downhaul it with your hands. Wrap the downhaul rope around a strong bar, put both your feet on the mastfoot, and haul on that bar until it goes no further. The bar needs to be strong, ie/ a screwdriver will probably break. Depends on the sail and mast.

Look at the second batten down, should be pointing into middle of mast when you have enough down haul on, and yeah, use a strong bar, if you have a harness that works great too!

And take your gear to the beach, people are always very willing to help out.

Hi guys, the sail is a severne renegade 4.0 and the mast is a Neil pryde x3 if that helps

Hey amandaf.

Where are you based as someone would be more than happy to help you out. We are a friendly bunch of windsurfers usually.

I've found that wetting the luff sleeve and downhaul rope decreases friction, this makes getting a lot of downhaul easier without putting so much strain on everything.

Trouble with bars and harnesses is stopping the rope from slipping, if you're good at temporary knots, go for it but otherwise there are downhaul tools on the market with a cleat. Or you can make your own, a hole thru a piece of aluminum tube with cleat screwed on works well.
I use a spare mast extender, that has holes and a cleat, works well. Last century I could downhaul my sails without a downhaul tool, but I was younger then and sails didn't need as much downhaul. I tried a few months ago and cut through he skin on the back of my hand with the rope, and still didn't get it tight enough! My wife can only pull enough downhaul for a very light wind sail, most of the time I have to do it four her.

There are wind up tools for getting more tension than you can pull with a bar, but I haven't had anything to do with them. Although I have heard other people cursing and swearing, because the rope is slipping and they still can't get enough tension.

I've also heard that mixing NP masts with other sails doesn't always work, not sure how compatible they are with Severne.

And surfinfreak is spot on, this is a fairly technical sport, you aren't expected to be an instant expert.
Nobody will think less of you because you're at the start of the learning curve, most will be more than willing to help.

Thanks for the ideas so far... I will have a look around for something to use with the downhaul rope, I don't have a harness yet. I do have another sail I could try the mast with, I think the other one was an arrows sail of similar size so I could see if that works better. The guy at the surf shop said that it is tricky to rig bits and pieces of different brand gear together, but unfortunately I couldn't afford to spend the 3.5k to get new gear so I'm just trying to get out there with what I have for now.

deejay, I'm located in Adelaide so I was going to have a crack at west lakes tomorrow afternoon or sunday depending on the weather.

Hi Amanda.

Best advice is to get one of the local windsurfers who knows how to rig a sail well to show you how to do it. That's because there are slightly different methods with different booms, mast bases, sail tops, mast tops and sails.

The Severne sail is designed for a stiff top mast and the Neil Pryde is a flex top mast, so there will have to be a compromise in how to match the two together. It would be best to get an expert to adjust the sail to show you what downhaul and outhaul is the best compromise for that sail and mast mix.

This is a good video for showing how to rig the sail, especially how to feed the downhaul rope properly through the pulleys. It may all seem complicated at first, but after you have done it a couple of times it becomes easy.
The Clamcleat Powergrip is a useful downhaul tool for saving the hands.



I usually just wind the rope 4 times round the hook of my spreader bar and then with the tail of the rope under one hand, use the spreader bar as a downhaul tool.

The luff tube will be very stiff when the sail is new, but it will soften up with use and then it becomes much easier to feed the mast into it.

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decrepit said..

I've found that wetting the luff sleeve and downhaul rope decreases friction, this makes getting a lot of downhaul easier without putting so much strain on everything.

Trouble with bars and harnesses is stopping the rope from slipping, if you're good at temporary knots, go for it but otherwise there are downhaul tools on the market with a cleat.

No need for knots at all, simply wrap the downhaul around your bar (I use an old large spanner) about 4 times, say left to right, then do a final wrap back on the left which will lock the rope in, and hold the rope tail as you pull the bar back.
Hmmm, maybe a picture is needed.

exactly how the video appears in the post before you hit play - is how my sail looked, with the battens underneath. So, if I can get enough tension on the downhaul (I have a big old spanner I can use) is that what will make it look normal and flatten everything out?

With a new sail, the first thing I do is adjust the cup or fitting which holds the top of the mast, so it is as close to the sail as possible.

With the mast, at the joint, you want to avoid getting sand into the joint and jamming both parts together as they can be very difficult to separate again. The other thing to avoid is the joint opening slightly when you slide the mast into the luff tube. He shows in the video where to feel for the joint and if you can't feel a dip where the joint has opened then the mast is OK. You could lay the top half of the mast on the luff and mark on the sail where the joint would be to help find it when the mast is inside the luff.

When feeding the sail into the luff, that is when I get all the battens on the underside of the mast.

I first downhaul the sail enough to get the top of the mast seated and the cloth at the opening where the boom goes on fairly straight but with just enough slack to make it easy to get the boom on.
Then I check that the mast top is seated properly and clamp the boom on. Put it on at the middle of the opening, then slide it down to the bottom of the opening and clamp it.

Then I put more downhaul on and check the mast extension setting. I would have almost the full downhaul on and want to have a couple of centimetres left to adjust with. If necessary I then adjust the mast extension and pull on almost enough downhaul.

Then I move the boom up to the correct height for me in the luff opening and reclamp it. Then I fit the outhaul and pull a small amount of tension on.

At this point, on a new sail, I would adjust the compression on the battens to take any slack out of the sail but not to stretch the sail in the batten area.

Put on the required amount of downhaul.

Adjust the outhaul.

With a new sail, after the first sail and a few after that, the luff tube softens and stretches a bit and you will maybe have to adjust accordingly, but once someone has shown you what the sail looks like when it is rigged at its optimum setting, its best just to repeat the exact positions of everything and use that one setting all the time.

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amandaf said..

exactly how the video appears in the post before you hit play - is how my sail looked, with the battens underneath. So, if I can get enough tension on the downhaul (I have a big old spanner I can use) is that what will make it look normal and flatten everything out?

When you downhaul it, the mast bends and all the batten tips should be pulled back to somewhere beside the mast, so yes, the downhaul makes everything come almost into place.

Your mast is going to a bit softer at the top and stiffer around the boom than the mast the sail was designed for, so the batten ends may not all be in similar positions along the mast. The top ones may be more inside the mast and the ones close to the boom may jut more past the mast.

The sail/mast will still work and there will be a best setting, but it will require an experienced windsurfer to get the optimum setting.

I've seen this combo rigged on big freeride gear - Severne sails + NP mast. You can't get the shape right (hard to get leech floppy), and they are a very hard to downhaul and end up with a twitchy sail with a very small wind range... but as you said Amanda, that's all you've got and anything is better than nothing when you're a beginner. Your 4.0 sail is going to have a pretty small wind range, so getting the tuning perfect at your level won't be critical, and end of the day, if the shape looks okayish, then it will work okayish too (and an experienced sailor with modern wave gear will be able to tell you what a good shape should look like).

Swing past Semaphore South (northern car park at Noonies) on Sunday (if there's wind) and ask any sailor. Everyone will be more than happy to help, so don't be embarrassed. We were all there once upon a time. Once you have a working rig configuration, head back West Lakes and give it a go.

Are you one of Matt Stringer's students ?

J

This is a sail designed for a Naish stiff top mast, rigged on a Tushingham flex top mast, so a similar problem to yours Amanda.

You can see that the battens near the boom are pushed past the mast and the top battens are pulled inside the mast.

I actually compressed the battens near the boom a bit more than they normally would be, to produce more shape in the sail, like it would have with the correct mast, but I'd suggest doing that only very slightly - a bit less than I did. Wrinkles tend to form beside the lower battens and compressing (lengthening) the batten tends to reduce the wrinkles but can stretch the sail, so its a compromise.

One thing I should have mentioned was that the bottom of the mast will usually get sand in it when you are rigging at the beach, so I always check and remove any sand before putting the mast base into the mast. It can jam if there is sand in the mast.

Just to explain it a bit more, but only bother with this if you want to. As I said before, you just need someone to show you the optimum setting and then you always set the sail that same way - end of story.

Your sail was designed for a mast that was softer in the boom region, so the Neil Pryde mast will be straighter in the boom area.
It takes more downhaul when trying to make the Neil Pryde mast bend more to get closer to matching the curve of the sail in the boom area and that puts extra vertical tension on the sail in the area beside the mast. That tends to flatten the sail so it will not fill out to a more powerful curve when the wind pushes on it.
It also tends to produce wrinkles beside the bottom 3 battens. I would suggest its best to reduce the wrinkles until they would have little effect on the airflow but not to completely remove them.

Apart from putting slightly too much compression into the bottom two battens, that Naish sail is rigged at what I considered was the best compromise for that combination of mast and sail.

As jn 1 described, it needs more downhaul force, and that extra tension in the sail tends not to let the sail bulge into a more powerful curve, so you lose some low end power.
Because the mast didn't bend enough at the boom, it has tension horizontally at the top of the sail so you can't get much slackness into the cloth at the rear edge of the top of the sail. That slackness would have helped the sail to twist off when overpowered to cope with stronger winds, so you lose a bit of top end range.
A heavy sailor would be able to hold more power and then the sail would actually start to get pushed into the right shape more, but you and I are in the weight range where the sail will be less flexible and will tend to have a smaller wind range where it works OK.

It won't matter as much when learning and I had some good sails with that sail so it still does the job.

Its just unfortunate that windsurf sail designers have different ideas of what mast curve to use. Your combination tends to suit lighter sailors least and is less of a problem for heavier sailors, whereas a Neil Pryde sail with a Severne Mast would also be a compromise but would tend to suit lighter sailors rather than heavier ones.

Here is a chart of masts from different manufacturers.
You can mix sails and masts best when the sail and mast match on a vertical line and they match least when furthest apart horizontally.
www.unifiber.net/masts-selector

Just to complicate matters more, Naish masts in the chart are more constant curve now but the sail in my picture was from a few years earlier when Naish designed their sails around hard topped masts.

Buy a downhaul whinch!
I've been sailing for 20 years and after a 10 year break came back and realised with modern sails there was no way I could hand downhaul like I used to with the 90's ones! I got a hand pulley thing but as a weak female almost did my back in and got sick of having to get a male to downhaul it for me - especially as most of the time where I sail there wasn't anyone else around!
They are about $100 but worth every cent. A lot of the blokes have them these days too.. How valuable is your back to you? Bad back = no sailing..

Modern, high quality mast bases with LARGE rollers are critical for easy downhauling. Due to breakage, I had to revert to an older mast base with 1cm-ish rollers - incredibly difficult to downhaul even with a downhaul puller. In fact I bent the downhaul puller in my efforts.

Move forward to a just purchased, brand-name mast base with large 2 - 2.5cm rollers, and downhauling was a breeze - with modest effort could downhaul way past the point I reached with the older mast base.

I too am having rigging issues I think.

I went out yesterday and in gusts couldn't control the 4.5 metre sail I had. It just kept getting ripped out of my hands once the wind got above 15 knots.

An experienced fellow on the beach pointed out I need more downhaul as the bottom of the sail was about 10cm from the extension pulley to put the wrinkle in at the second batten. I'll do it next time but I don't understand why. Does the wrinkle make the sail more manageable? Can someone explain.

Amanda, get some of this stuff:

http://www.surfsailaustralia.com.au/showProduct/Windsurfing/Bits+and+Pieces/433855/Marlows+3.8+mm+Formuline

It's expensive, but it's magic. I got tipped off from a thread on this forum and decided to get some. If I see you at Sems on Sunday, I'll give you a example.

Tasmania: The leach has to be floppy so top of sail can twist off (allow sail to take advantage of wind gradiant - wind travels faster the higher you go, and therefore apparent wind bearing will change the higher you go), also downhauling the sail will give it shape, allow it to release gusts, prevent the centre of effort wobbling around, and generally make it easier to use.

J

Thanks for all the help so far everyone!

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jn1 said..

Are you one of Matt Stringer's students ?

J

Yep I sure am - he has been really great helping me out so far. If he's there at west lakes tomorrow morning I will ask him when I am there... I am hoping though that with everyone's tips I will be able to do a much better job tomorrow! I also have an arrows 4.2m sail so I will take that with me as well, and if I can't get the severne working I will try that one instead.
I will head down to semaphore after having a bit of a play in the lake in the morning and see if i can catch you there jn.... thanks for the tips! I need to get some things (like an up haul rope) from the surfsail site so I can get some of that line rope too - how many metres would I need? I thought no more than 2? I will also keep my eyes open for a second hand np sail that might work better with the mast, but for now, i just want to get out there!!

Cheers everyone, I will report back on how everything goes tomorrow morning :)

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amandaf said..

Thanks for all the help so far everyone!

jn1 said..

Are you one of Matt Stringer's students ?

J

Yep I sure am - he has been really great helping me out so far. If he's there at west lakes tomorrow morning I will ask him when I am there... I am hoping though that with everyone's tips I will be able to do a much better job tomorrow! I also have an arrows 4.2m sail so I will take that with me as well, and if I can't get the severne working I will try that one instead.
I will head down to semaphore after having a bit of a play in the lake in the morning and see if i can catch you there jn.... thanks for the tips! I need to get some things (like an up haul rope) from the surfsail site so I can get some of that line rope too - how many metres would I need? I thought no more than 2? I will also keep my eyes open for a second hand np sail that might work better with the mast, but for now, i just want to get out there!!

Cheers everyone, I will report back on how everything goes tomorrow morning :)

2 metres is a good length for a downhaul rope.

The Arrows sail should be constant curve bend type, so should suit the mast a bit better than the Severne.

Nice to see your enthusiasm - I didn't want to put you off windsurfing by complicating things.

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tazmania said..

I too am having rigging issues I think.

I went out yesterday and in gusts couldn't control the 4.5 metre sail I had. It just kept getting ripped out of my hands once the wind got above 15 knots.

An experienced fellow on the beach pointed out I need more downhaul as the bottom of the sail was about 10cm from the extension pulley to put the wrinkle in at the second batten. I'll do it next time but I don't understand why. Does the wrinkle make the sail more manageable? Can someone explain.

The wrinkle is just a symptom. The poor handling is due to lack of tension all over (except the upper luff). The mast is a big spring that you have to bend quite a bit to provide that tension. You may well have adjusted the extension too long but if it was set at the manufacturer's recommended length as written on the sail (usually recommended mast length and luff length and you calculate the required extension by subtracting the mast length from the luff length) then showing 100mm of extension when rigged means that it's definitely not sufficiently downhauled.

The sail will be designed to put the tack of the sail as close to the deck as possible at maximum downhaul. You would probably find there is only a difference of about 20mm between minimum and maximum downhaul settings. So yeah, more down haul. The upper leach should be soft. On most sails it should be quite floppy but that can vary with the sail design.

Standard procedure is to start with the manufacturers recommended settings and vary them a bit from there if you feel the need.

Good luck amanda I just started also and the time rigging was so cautious with sail everything was so loose it was hard to uphaul.

Not sure if right advice or has been answered but have shoes on to push mast extension when downhauling so u can give all u got. Then attach boom at right cm setting and outhaul till boom and leech nearly touching (this for me helped untwist battens at mast) then u can go back and forth on downhaul/outhaul to comfortable with settings. Care with rigging too far from water and tgen carrying as u will use alot of energy especially if breezy.

Keep it up I am having go tomorrow for my fifth time and each time is getting easier (except trying 25knot winds with 200litre board!)

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tazmania said..

I too am having rigging issues I think.

I went out yesterday and in gusts couldn't control the 4.5 metre sail I had. It just kept getting ripped out of my hands once the wind got above 15 knots.

An experienced fellow on the beach pointed out I need more downhaul as the bottom of the sail was about 10cm from the extension pulley to put the wrinkle in at the second batten. I'll do it next time but I don't understand why. Does the wrinkle make the sail more manageable? Can someone explain.

I think what he is meaning is that he was recommending you put on enough downhaul until there is slackness in the back edge (leech) of the sail, at the top of the back edge. As you put on more downhaul, the slackness starts at the top of the back edge and more downhaul will produce more slackness extending further down the sail and further in from the back edge.
Often nowadays there are markers on the sail to act as guides for average and maybe max and min settings for downhaul when the sail is set on the recommended mast.

Before there were markers, it was common to downhaul to produce the slackness down to the second batten or to the third batten for high winds, but that is just a general guide and wasn't ideal for every sail. I think that was what he meant by putting some wrinkle in at the second batten.

The reason for the slackness is to allow the sail to twist off and automatically adjust to absorb a gust of wind by spilling the wind. When the sail is powered up by the wind, the mast bends and twists downwind at the top, and the slackness disappears, so the whole of the sail is working. If a gust hits, the top rear of the sail twists off more and spills the extra power. If you hadn't put in the slackness, there is too much tension in the top of the sail and it doesn't twist off to spill the gust, so you get pulled hard by the gust.

A powered up sail.

NO screwdrivers PLEASE
here is the cheat KNOT used by the PROS
as everyone says - match mast to sail - severne is hard top and NP soft/flex
with mast and extension - set to requirement and downhaul ALL the way - as a starting point
adjust using outhaul
GOOD LUCK and FUN !!!

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terminal said..

tazmania said..

I too am having rigging issues I think.

I went out yesterday and in gusts couldn't control the 4.5 metre sail I had. It just kept getting ripped out of my hands once the wind got above 15 knots.

An experienced fellow on the beach pointed out I need more downhaul as the bottom of the sail was about 10cm from the extension pulley to put the wrinkle in at the second batten. I'll do it next time but I don't understand why. Does the wrinkle make the sail more manageable? Can someone explain.

I think what he is meaning is that he was recommending you put on enough downhaul until there is slackness in the back edge (leech) of the sail, at the top of the back edge. As you put on more downhaul, the slackness starts at the top of the back edge and more downhaul will produce more slackness extending further down the sail and further in from the back edge.
Often nowadays there are markers on the sail to act as guides for average and maybe max and min settings for downhaul when the sail is set on the recommended mast.

Before there were markers, it was common to downhaul to produce the slackness down to the second batten or to the third batten for high winds, but that is just a general guide and wasn't ideal for every sail. I think that was what he meant by putting some wrinkle in at the second batten.

The reason for the slackness is to allow the sail to twist off and automatically adjust to absorb a gust of wind by spilling the wind. When the sail is powered up by the wind, the mast bends and twists downwind at the top, and the slackness disappears, so the whole of the sail is working. If a gust hits, the top rear of the sail twists off more and spills the extra power. If you hadn't put in the slackness, there is too much tension in the top of the sail and it doesn't twist off to spill the gust, so you get pulled hard by the gust.

A powered up sail.

Yep that's what he was talking about... and thanks for the explanation. Makes sense. I've got an ezzy 4.5 metre sail with a four metre mast but the top cup was about ten centimetres from the top of the sail so I've adjusted it so it is closer and it is easier to get the slackness in the leech. Tried in the back yard and stood it up in the wind to try it out and it seemed a lot more manageable and the power came on gradually rather than in a bang.

Downhaul winch! Makes the job effortless and gives you easy fine control on how much you haul it down.

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terminal said..

I use these bad boys on the Tour ... they are AWESOME. Keeps my skin so soft ;-)

Sorry to hijack thread Amanda..

With the help/advice of this forum did some more reading and went out today to Melville and cranked the downhaul right up to point where it was correctly floppy at the top.

What a difference that makes!!! What was unusable on Friday and had me questioning and doubting my ability was awesome today. This sail was easily handled and the surges of gusts were easily dealt with as they exhausted of the top of the sail.

I had to stand so far back on the board that I could've just about used a harness even with only the 4.5 metre sail. I'll have a few more sessions with this and move up to the 5.5 I've got.

I love this sport!!! And my arms are knackered.

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joe windsurf said..

NO screwdrivers PLEASE
here is the cheat KNOT used by the PROS
as everyone says - match mast to sail - severne is hard top and NP soft/flex
with mast and extension - set to requirement and downhaul ALL the way - as a starting point
adjust using outhaul
GOOD LUCK and FUN !!!

?rel=0

Just use this knot. Loop it through a spare extension or a piece of pipe - or anything handy. Gives you amazing traction and then you just slide it out. Simplest thing in the world.