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olskool said..
Just droping in here guys. Whats the average cost of materials to build a board? Ive never attempted one, but am keen to give it a razz. SLW kinda thing for 105kg pilot.

My current board I did in 2016 www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Wave-sailing/Started-shaping-my-new-waveboard cost $950 in materials including deck pads and footstraps but not fins, but it was full carbon, I think I used 6.5m of carbon. Its still going strong.

Oh yeah.... more board porn!! Nice work Mark!

I also found the deck sandwich a nightmare ..... stressful as hell. You actually need a buddy to help with that bit.

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Dar said.. I also found the deck sandwich a nightmare ..... stressful as hell. You actually need a buddy to help with that bit.

I cheated, I used slow resin, but that meant I had to get up in the middle of the night to turn the pump off.

And yes a buddy that knows what they are doing is a big help, but getting somebody that hasn't a clue, makes it worse.

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R1DER said.. Looking good Mark, im trying to work out what are those clamps for?

Aaahhhhh
The end is sealed with dumdum tape and a good swag of gaffer but it still has a tiny leak. No matter what I did it would not go away but if I pinched the fold in just the right place it stopped. So clamp and couple bits of mdf = seal.
Very tech

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Dar said..
Oh yeah.... more board porn!! Nice work Mark!

I also found the deck sandwich a nightmare ..... stressful as hell. You actually need a buddy to help with that bit.

Here's a technique which I found makes the deck sandwich job a little less stressful.
I use 38mm mdf supascrews (because of coarse thread) screwed thru the corecell into the poly blank to locate the c/cell while I work. (these screw out ok after cure).
The c/cell wrap is taped (48mm masking tape) around the perimeter to prevent cracking. Tape straight across the forming darts also.
The c/cell wrap extends over the tuck line and onto the hull c/cell by 25mm. The hull perimeter edge is masked off to prevent the wrap edge bonding to the hull.
The hull has a 3mm packer attached with double sided tape which covers the entire surface except for a 35mm boundary around the perimeter.
For this hull packer I use 3mm mdf sheet, slit at the vee lines.
Next I use 48mm pvc tape and tape the entire cover over the job and over the hull packer.
This tape stretches and allows me to pull the wrap around the rails and the entire job finishes up covered in tape including horizontally around the nose and tail to pull these wraps in.I use 2-3 full rolls of tape usually
I now put the whole lot on the rocker table which has the vee shim already attached.
Tape down the vac bag edge and vac it at 0.45bar
In the past I have done the same but with a rocker stick taped to the hull.
I found the table to be more accurate.
I don't do any heat forming on the centre more parallel section of the board any more.
I do the tail 300mm and nose 300mm as separate sections and heat form these if necessary although if using airex for these sections it's not necessary.
I use mdf screws to locate and hold these sections while I tape.
I use Nuplex R180 standard cure and it takes me about 60-90 minutes to complete the operation, always plenty of time (in 20-25 ambient).
I still get a sweat up tho'.

Good stuff Tehau... thank you!

Wow Te Hau

I like some of those ideas..... and your timeframe, yes it was 60mins for me, so this time of year its great but in summer in WA a bit stressy. In fact, I reckon for 3-4 months of the year I simply would not make a board, its hard enough to glass a surfboard in 45deg.

But,
I reckon rocker tables are too much work, using the MDF spine in the pics I have exact to the millimetre from end to end. Literally zero error. Some of that is a bit of luck hahhaha, maybe =/- 2-3mm is more realistic on most boards.

I also find your overlap a lot, why so much? I did 5-10mm all around except the tail where it is easy to have much less.

I cut relief 4 darts, I have no idea how the legend Hoops manages nil

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Mark _australia said..
Wow Te Hau

I like some of those ideas..... and your timeframe, yes it was 60mins for me, so this time of year its great but in summer in WA a bit stressy. In fact, I reckon for 3-4 months of the year I simply would not make a board, its hard enough to glass a surfboard in 45deg.

But,
I reckon rocker tables are too much work, using the MDF spine in the pics I have exact to the millimetre from end to end. Literally zero error. Some of that is a bit of luck hahhaha, maybe =/- 2-3mm is more realistic on most boards.

I also find your overlap a lot, why so much? I did 5-10mm all around except the tail where it is easy to have much less.

I cut relief 4 darts, I have no idea how the legend Hoops manages nil

Ha, we have the opposite problem. I have 4 months where I can't do anything cos it's bloody freezing and resin stays like honey.
Plus I'm too cheap to heat the shed.
Yea I probably do my overlaps too big. A throwback from the days before screwing the pvc down.
I thought the same re making rocker tables but not so bad and I'm much less nervous about what the rocker is going to be these days.
I have 2 tables.
1 for speedys and 1 for slalom.
Both Chris Lockwood's rockers. He builds stuff that works IMHO.
Last mountain lake board I built was on the slalom table but set 45mm forward. Nice rocker for lots of chop/high wind.
The foil board I just built was on slalom table at 100mm forward and only 225cm long.
All sorts of possibilities sliding them back and forth using the cad.
Maybe Hoops uses airex?
I reckon you could do zero darts with that stuff.
Shame its so expensive and doesn't seem to be available here in NZ now.

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Mark _australia said..
Wow Te Hau

I like some of those ideas..... and your timeframe, yes it was 60mins for me, so this time of year its great but in summer in WA a bit stressy. In fact, I reckon for 3-4 months of the year I simply would not make a board, its hard enough to glass a surfboard in 45deg.

But,
I reckon rocker tables are too much work, using the MDF spine in the pics I have exact to the millimetre from end to end. Literally zero error. Some of that is a bit of luck hahhaha, maybe =/- 2-3mm is more realistic on most boards.

I also find your overlap a lot, why so much? I did 5-10mm all around except the tail where it is easy to have much less.

I cut relief 4 darts, I have no idea how the legend Hoops manages nil

I've been thinking to do a how to video on thermo forming the top PVC. It's something I get asked about a lot.
I think I've tried every technique possible but after the last few hundred boards I think I've come up with the most efficient technique.
The more acccurate and close fitting you get the top shell , the less vacuum pressure you need which reduces the chance of any distortion. It also reduces the amount of filling and re shaping after it comes out of the bag.
Its possible to get a complete wrap with any PVC without any cuts. Sometimes it takes a little longer but it saves loads of time after it comes out of the bag.
I showed Rider how to do it a while back but I don't think he's built a board since.

^^^ I reckon you should maybe.
Even with my forming above, I have 4 darts cut. I now have 3 wrinkles that need sanding down a smidge, and a couple bubbles with no adhesion near the tail pointy bits. I reckon that's not bad, but with no darts cut at all I'd have 8 or 10 little areas to fill/fix, instead of 3 or 4.

On the other hand, Hoops - as a pro you can't give away every secret you have.....

I am worried a bit about weight,I have 3.8kg already so might re-do my top laminate math......

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hoop said..

Mark _australia said..
Wow Te Hau

I like some of those ideas..... and your timeframe, yes it was 60mins for me, so this time of year its great but in summer in WA a bit stressy. In fact, I reckon for 3-4 months of the year I simply would not make a board, its hard enough to glass a surfboard in 45deg.

But,
I reckon rocker tables are too much work, using the MDF spine in the pics I have exact to the millimetre from end to end. Literally zero error. Some of that is a bit of luck hahhaha, maybe =/- 2-3mm is more realistic on most boards.

I also find your overlap a lot, why so much? I did 5-10mm all around except the tail where it is easy to have much less.

I cut relief 4 darts, I have no idea how the legend Hoops manages nil

I've been thinking to do a how to video on thermo forming the top PVC. It's something I get asked about a lot.
I think I've tried every technique possible but after the last few hundred boards I think I've come up with the most efficient technique.
The more acccurate and close fitting you get the top shell , the less vacuum pressure you need which reduces the chance of any distortion. It also reduces the amount of filling and re shaping after it comes out of the bag.
Its possible to get a complete wrap with any PVC without any cuts. Sometimes it takes a little longer but it saves loads of time after it comes out of the bag.
I showed Rider how to do it a while back but I don't think he's built a board since.

What goes on in the shed, stays in the shed.
No I haven't

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Mark _australia said..
^^^ I reckon you should maybe.
Even with my forming above, I have 4 darts cut. I now have 3 wrinkles that need sanding down a smidge, and a couple bubbles with no adhesion near the tail pointy bits. I reckon that's not bad, but with no darts cut at all I'd have 8 or 10 little areas to fill/fix, instead of 3 or 4.

On the other hand, Hoops - as a pro you can't give away every secret you have.....

I am worried a bit about weight,I have 3.8kg already so might re-do my top laminate math......

Nah I think it's cool to share info and things that you've learnt. There are some things that I wouldn't divulge but happy to share most of it.
Every shaper has different ways of doing things and it's always correct for them. So if I post 1 thing on here I'm sure there will be someone that tells me it's wrong, but that's fine. I've had many interesting conversations with a lot of the shapers around the world and most of them are pretty open about how they do things but there's definitely a lot of stuff they won't share.

Best you get to work on that next board Rider, I'm waiting !!

Stuck the footstrap inserts in, measure twice cut once has never been so true as when one marks the positions at 11pm with a fair intake of bourbon and beer..... so glad I checked again in the morning before the router was fired up




Waited all day for the postman who never came with my mast track and fin boxes maybe tomorrow.....

That bored me, so stuck in a full thickness divinycell nose block. Nice if you crack it = no water ingress, but I feel its more likely to snap the whole block off with a solid hit. I suspect it can't be a bad thing if some custom guys do it, so why not.


Then, thinking I may need to make my side fins, so been investigating G10 sheet prices and trying to google wave fin design. There seems to be nothing at all apart from articles in windsurfing mags that discuss draft, rake, stiffness etc and have pics of freeride fins. All the stuff we know. I wanna know how rake on the side fins affects things as they do seem to be more upright than the mains.

That's looking like one fine board Mark !

Have you actually been doing your job Mark??
havent seen any board progress for a while.
looking good so far

Yeah had to go to real work on and off
All the inserts and boxes in so probably bottom lam tomorrow. Gotta weigh it again tonight first though

No pics at the moment, might disclose secret geometry lol

So who wants to tell me all about side fin design? They're not just little versions of centrefins (mostly) so i am interested in what i should make, and googling is giving me nothin

It's a black art, when we are initiated into the circle we swear an oath what goes on in the circle stays in the circle! Punishment is severe.

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R1DER said..
It's a black art, when we are initiated into the circle we swear an oath what goes on in the circle stays in the circle! Punishment is severe.

Weed fins

Did bottom laminate. Nice......




but even though it was the arvo and on a falling temp, as it should be to avoid expansion, the bloody sun came out and the workshop warmed up about a degree grrr. Trouble with Colourbond garages....Consequently, I got some bubbles in the glass, nothing drastic just a few about 20cm size.

Get to look like a mad scientist then.....



bit of resin injection,some weights on top and bubbles now flat and glued to the corecell like they should be.

Excited for top lam, cos then it will be 90% a real board :) :)

Just a tiny little prick it wont hurt a bit!

No vacuum?

Nah not worth it for only 2 x 4oz only saves very small amount of weight..... and it forces too much resin into the tiny little slotbox screw holes which can be an issue
Yes, might get bubbles but if I did it at 6pm instead of being eager at midday it would not have happened lol.

Mark, pita when temps bump. Was repairing an older RB with no vent screw. Tried 3 times to get good adhesion on the last repair. It kept expanding n lifting. In the end i did repair at 1am. Steep learning curve for me. 1'C temp rise can stuff hours of work.

For repairs, just put a bit of plastic over it and dump a sandbag on it to be safe. :)

^^ Will give it a razz, later today. Similar repair underway. Last time i used plastic n taped it heavily. Still lifted. Thanks Mark.
Think i suffer from too eager midday starts as well !!! I prep it in the morning. Go do something else. Then come back to glassing.
If that doesnt work i think adding a ventscrew to board should solve the problem?

Its amazing how porous a board is. I stripped , repaired and totally repimped an old Starboard Go . Gave it a sanding all over ( not to the glass ) and painted a fresh layer of resin all over. I didn't worry about expanding air as the board was totally watertight , ( or so i thought ). It had 50 to 100 tiny bubbles coming through all over and that was with the vent plug out. Im not sure if the air came from the core or between the laminates. What i do know now is lightly resining and vacuum bagging is not air tight and relies on the outermost resin layer , or paint to keep it sealed. From now on even painting ill do on a cooling day.
Id guess even new boards breathe a little air and water.

So she is back in the bag

Deck 1x 4oz, carbon in foot area and mast track patch, uni carbon rails & 1 x 0.6mm pine veneer. Gotta bag that stuff to get it to bend its almost worse than the corecell - I guess as it bends more one way than the other, wood being unidirectional and all :)



Good timing anyway as postie brought my carbon / kevlar today for the next bit.

Hope I can find all my inserts under wood n carbon huh......

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Mark _australia said..
Yeah had to go to real work on and off
All the inserts and boxes in so probably bottom lam tomorrow. Gotta weigh it again tonight first though

No pics at the moment, might disclose secret geometry lol

So who wants to tell me all about side fin design? They're not just little versions of centrefins (mostly) so i am interested in what i should make, and googling is giving me nothin

Its impossible to tell if you have toe in on the side bites. I would buy K4s, and the Ezzy version comes with 1/2/3 degree and are asymmetrical , if nothing else to try. If you decided against toe in, K4 have a variety of suitable sides. Rocket, Leon, Stubby, Flex all work with slightly different results .
I would compliment these with rears as well.

The sides can be used as the quad or tri fin setup, in the same size.
ONE option of course would be convert SURF Fins to the slotbox, Futures require the least epoxy to form.
On 5 fin boxes I found them somewhat confusing, at times the tri fin, other , the quad worked best to my likening.

I found that this size is the most important on side fins, because they are generally speaking small, 13cm or less, the area and depth are the primary contribution.

I have learned a lot form you and this thread. Great Job.

Did I miss what size the board will be ?

The FCS fin, is a regular surf fin, its a sophisticated foil inside and very light weight. Use these on a tri fin, nice.
Left and right are G10, the right one I use a lot on quads, and tri fin sidebites. The non FCS are made by Hanalei Fins, G10s are custom.

This shape work well for me.