Hi all
Just some thoughts on the heading. 2 years ago I bought a name brand 2010 85L freestyle wave for riding in port Phillip and Western port bay Victoria. It seemed like a good thing so I sold my 93L wave board to ride the 85l as my small board. Up until this time I had not really suffered from sore knee's
but I quickly started getting them. The board did seem to ride hard (lots of banging and clanging).
18months later I was getting fed up so 1 day I did a comparison with and old Tiga 1999 267 wave
board 93L 55w (nice board). It rode so much nicer than the 85L I hung the 85L up in the shed.
6 months later I no longer have a knee problem. I have spoken to other senior riders who were also complaining about there boards riding hard. 2 other name brand boards one a FSW and a wave board.
Why do modern boards ride hard?
Some people say its the carbon, but my 85L was the FWS model the carbon model sold along side it.
Some say you need some v in the bottom but it did have a small amount of v right through.

I have just bought a 2006 (I think) 90L Mistral syncro which is dead flat under the mast track area with v in the front and at the tail and a after a couple of rides at safety beach in a swinging westerly (read choppy as) it does not seem to ride hard & no sore knees so far.
I have written this blurb for 2 reasons.
The main one is if you are having trouble with your Knees
buy an old board of Seabreeze or ebay there cheap and you may be surprised how well they work.
The other reason is does anyone really know why modern boards ride hard in heavy chop?.
My current theory is they are to short. My Syncro is mid 240 long, my tiga is 267 long, my 106 tabou is over 240 long modern boards are under 240 long and I say that's the problem. Well maybe not, I have just remembered the excellent 93L wave board I sold was shorter than 240 (dam).
So does anyone know?????
See you out there.

Its one of those thinks that magazine reviews don't really mention but there is quite a bit of variation even from year to year in the same model. I have had a 2009 Fanatic FSW which had a fast but harder ride compared to a 2012 Fanatic FSW which has a much smother ride. Sometimes these boards can be ridden with a much smaller fin than the supplied one and this can soften the ride too.

edit.....the 2012 model is shorter and wider....so maybe not a factor?

I've had bits taken out of my knees so they're particularly sensitive to harsh rides. It's just the bottom design of the boards IMO.

I've found the Exocet boards to be quite smooth, they have the double density pads so I guess this helps as well.

Some of the Jp fsw's I've had have been harsh.

I have a few slalom boards, while they are carbon and stiff, you can dial them in so they ride above the chop rather than through it.

I think the extra length of older boards makes the ride smoother. I noticed it a day that I jumped from 2.40 116 goya freeride to 2.70 Carve 133 lts, same width, similar bottom shape.

Agree with waiting4wind - it is not a new board thing or a carbon thing (well not completely.) .... it is bottom shape mostly


The older F2 will feel better due to the skin over the outside making it ride softer but that has lots of other drawbacks so I'd take the modern board any day as long as the shape is right.

Also it is not only the "bumps", it will be the stance and lateral pressure required due to fin size and wind strength. Try to ride a waveboard downwind when well powered and see what that does to your back leg after only 1km. Then sail it on a reach like designed and you can do that 100x longer.

I agree with Mark about the bottom shape being the biggest factor, however the materials and footpads also play a big part.
If you look at this guy's jibing video, it's amazing just how much a modern day board still flexes and this is on flat water!



...and that's a Wood Futura.
So if you imagine a stiffer, full carbon version of that Futura (or any brand), it is going to transfer even more jolt through to your legs.
Then add choppier waters...

Older boards (like you describe) like the Tiga, F2 Axxis/Ride, Mistral Flow/Screamer etc that were plastic skinned, had even more flex that really helped smooth out the ride, but because of their construction they were eventually prone to delaminating.
(Many of them also had a fair bit of Vee and were narrower, which also helped)

The other thing I've noticed more recently is how the soft marsh-mellow pads on boards like the RRD's and Tabou's also help aging knees deal with chop.

^^^ and speaking of pads... why do they not ALL do the dual density thing Starboard did?
It costs nothing at all to have a scooped out section under the heels which is then filled with a medium density foam, then the pads are glued on.
Negates heel dents (or at least delays the onset of them a lot), and adds considerably to the ride quality.

Or like RRD FSW's in 2006-8 ish.
Double thickness pad so there is a big hump under your heel for jumping. But when you place the straps more outboard for freeriding, it is under the arch of your foot and really comfy. That one was genius for a dual-use board

I thought the saw knees was just part of getting older, I'll have to ride a few more boards and try to find one that's better.

I've found that, amongst the other things already mentioned, the things that allow you to sail more off the leeward rail help. ie. A wider board, a longer fin and a larger sail. Set your straps outboard. If the windward rail is on the limit of flying up out of the water, the ride out there is usually pretty smooth. (if a bit sketchy)

Not sure of the video of the futura, if the pixels at the back of the camera aren't loaded in one hit you can get apparent flexing that isn't really there?

ive started riding very old boards again, early 90s.. and even older. longer, narrower, faster, and much smoother.
short and fat is way over rated.

I find if I hang right off the boom ( long harness lines) low to the water with straight legs across to the board it absorbs the bumps much better than standing upright over the board. Just got to pull your bum up for the big chop..I use big boards for my weight so would be bashed to bits if I didn't do that.
I remember 90's boards as being less bouncy especially in the gybes .I've had to relearn how to gybe since I got into modern boards - more mast foot pressure .I'm still not brilliant at it.

Knees OK but sacroilliac joint has seen better days. I switched to Exocet boards because the double density foam under the foot-straps reduced the impact in chop and jumps (small ones at least). Sounds like some other brands do these too from the above. Very hard to go back to a board without them.

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sboardcrazy said..

I find if I hang right off the boom ( long harness lines) low to the water with straight legs across to the board it absorbs the bumps much better than standing upright over the board. Just got to pull your bum up for the big chop..I use big boards for my weight so would be bashed to bits if I didn't do that.
I remember 90's boards as being less bouncy especially in the gybes .I've had to relearn how to gybe since I got into modern boards - more mast foot pressure .I'm still not brilliant at it.

try to find a freeride board from the early 90s.. just to see.
theyre dead cheap, and the best way to start ripping those jibes again. seriously.
actually my favourite jibing board right now is from about '88 I believe. carves like nothing else.

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sboardcrazy said..
I find if I hang right off the boom ( long harness lines) low to the water with straight legs across to the board it absorbs the bumps much better than standing upright over the board. Just got to pull your bum up for the big chop..I use big boards for my weight so would be bashed to bits if I didn't do that.

I remember 90's boards as being less bouncy especially in the gybes .I've had to relearn how to gybe since I got into modern boards - more mast foot pressure .I'm still not brilliant at it.

I think it has more to do with big boards for your weight Sue.

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wave knave said..

sboardcrazy said..

I find if I hang right off the boom ( long harness lines) low to the water with straight legs across to the board it absorbs the bumps much better than standing upright over the board. Just got to pull your bum up for the big chop..I use big boards for my weight so would be bashed to bits if I didn't do that.
I remember 90's boards as being less bouncy especially in the gybes .I've had to relearn how to gybe since I got into modern boards - more mast foot pressure .I'm still not brilliant at it.

try to find a freeride board from the early 90s.. just to see.
theyre dead cheap, and the best way to start ripping those jibes again. seriously.
actually my favourite jibing board right now is from about '88 I believe. carves like nothing else.

I think, can't be sure but, that if you try and pack a decent amount of nose kick in a too short board its natural gybing radius gets too tight.

Don't worry, longer boards will return, although we've been predicting that for a while....

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/Bic-Veloce-278-any-good/

Go the Tabou 3s, double concaves and nice thick pads

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Mark _australia said..

sboardcrazy said..
I find if I hang right off the boom ( long harness lines) low to the water with straight legs across to the board it absorbs the bumps much better than standing upright over the board. Just got to pull your bum up for the big chop..I use big boards for my weight so would be bashed to bits if I didn't do that.

I remember 90's boards as being less bouncy especially in the gybes .I've had to relearn how to gybe since I got into modern boards - more mast foot pressure .I'm still not brilliant at it.

I think it has more to do with big boards for your weight Sue.

with the gybing? mm maybe..?

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elmo said..
Go the Tabou 3s, double concaves and nice thick pads

+1. I used to have some joint aches and pains after long sessions. That's pretty much history since I got my 3S 96.

Many modern boards aim for a more "lively" feeling. That may score well in tests, but will beat you up, especially of your older than 35. A few boards are more comfort/control oriented. They tend to feel slower, even if they are not, and some may even feel a bit boring in tame conditions. The 3S is an exception, it still is a lot of fun. I switch to it from my "lively" freestyle or slalom boards as soon as the wind reaches steady 18 knots (unless I'm at a perfectly flat speed strip).

I like the double concave to "V" shape of Tabou boards. Makes them extremely comfy in chop.
I sold 2 carbon boards because they were hard on my knees. Otherwise, they were great.

I've got an old aching body from 30yrs of windsurfing. Bad knees, ankles & bad back main issues, and some other medical problems. Glucosamine helped knees and ankles for many years. Got slack didnt take it for a about a year, now knees ankles and my back are much worse again. Just started retaking it recently, but probably a big mistake to stop, may not recover to previous state.

Re boards, I tend to avoid my flat rockered carbon boards in washing machine choppy conditions, try and sail on flattest water possible, unless wavesailing. RE Port Phillip Bay, being an ex-melb, yeh not good for old bodies. Prevention is better than cure is best advice = Stay fit (stretching very impt after 40, use natural anti-inflamms, like fish oil, and glucosamine, lots of physio, use right gear for the conditions. I had to succumb to a shot of Cortizone as some inflammation caused severe pain.

Dont ya hate ageing, but better to be ageing than the alternative

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Obelix said..

I like the double concave to "V" shape of Tabou boards. Makes them extremely comfy in chop.
I sold 2 carbon boards because they were hard on my knees. Otherwise, they were great.

Yep the rockets are great in chop .. even if they are too big for my size..

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hardie said..

I've got an old aching body from 30yrs of windsurfing. Bad knees, ankles & bad back main issues, and some other medical problems. Glucosamine helped knees and ankles for many years. Got slack didnt take it for a about a year, now knees ankles and my back are much worse again. Just started retaking it recently, but probably a big mistake to stop, may not recover to previous state.

Re boards, I tend to avoid my flat rockered carbon boards in washing machine choppy conditions, try and sail on flattest water possible, unless wavesailing. RE Port Phillip Bay, being an ex-melb, yeh not good for old bodies. Prevention is better than cure is best advice = Stay fit (stretching very impt after 40, use natural anti-inflamms, like fish oil, and glucosamine, lots of physio, use right gear for the conditions. I had to succumb to a shot of Cortizone as some inflammation caused severe pain.

Dont ya hate ageing, but better to be ageing than the alternative

I want to die in my prime - get knocked out sailboarding and drown .. rather than disintegrate in a nursing home..

Purchased a 98l manta recently and found that the problem I had previously with a harsh ride, had been addressed in the form of 8mm pads as opposed to the prior 4mm. Might not sound like much but I love the new board as it rides very smoothly and I don't feel each ripple on the water, which is great for these old legs.
Not really trying to bang on about the Tabou's, but I also have two speedsters with the thick (very thick) footpads and believe that these, along with the concaves in the hull really make for a smooth ride.
Maybe the boards are a bit heavier than their rivals, but for that trade-off I'm willing to pay the price of a little bit of speed. (you can pass me by but you won't wipe that s**t-eating grin off my dial).

The clatteryest board I have had was a 2005 86 litre Fanatic Freewave which was 57 cm wide. It is the bottom shape that causes the impacts to feel so hard - that plus the extra speed that that board had, it was very quick.
My 2012 95 litre Fanatic FW feels very soft over the water in comparison - a feel that I usually associate with RRD Freewaves.

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elmo said..

Go the Tabou 3s, double concaves and nice thick pads

I have to admit - I'm very happy with my 3s, although on a marginal day I still think I'd like to get my hands on a longer board for cruising.

I got a sore knee from a 2004 Naish wave board, very harsh bumpy ride and a very scatty board so decided to go for something more modern with a comfortable ride, which was and still is a Starboard 2012 Evo 76 and Kode 2012 86, both wood. Much more comfortable but the knee still gets sore if I wave ride too much (lot's of twisting), so all in all that's from age and years of wear and tear, but the comfy boards do make a hell of a lot of difference.