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Cluffy said..
Team riders have been using custom boards painted up as production since the year dot. How else are manufacturers supposed to do any decent development. Calling people out for it is like handing out speeding tickets at the bathurst 1000.

this is an interesting take. everyones going to have their own view.

for me if the rider is on custom boards from the sponsors shaper then that's just develpoment.
if the rider is on custom boards form an external shaper and the sponsor makes that well known then that's all good too.

when the rider is on a custom board not from the sponsor and then monday the sponsor uses the media and interviews to make out their boards/sails are superior and winning at the top level then that's false advertising and lies.

take it a step further. as a sponsored rider Bernd has interviews, photoshoots and social media responsibilities for sup, foiling and windsurfing. So day in day out he is lying about what he uses, what he thinks and all in the name making money. how anyone can think that's ok worries me.

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Gestalt said..

Cluffy said..
Team riders have been using custom boards painted up as production since the year dot. How else are manufacturers supposed to do any decent development. Calling people out for it is like handing out speeding tickets at the bathurst 1000.

this is an interesting take. everyones going to have their own view.

for me if the rider is on custom boards from the sponsors shaper then that's just develpoment.
if the rider is on custom boards form an external shaper and the sponsor makes that well known then that's all good too.

when the rider is on a custom board not from the sponsor and then monday the sponsor uses the media and interviews to make out their boards/sails are superior and winning at the top level then that's false advertising and lies.

take it a step further. as a sponsored rider Bernd has interviews, photoshoots and social media responsibilities for sup, foiling and windsurfing. So day in day out he is lying about what he uses, what he thinks and all in the name making money. how anyone can think that's ok worries me.

You have some interesting views, that's what I write when iam confused.
I can't say I have ever heard that the Teams Sponsored riders are on production boards. Iam open to the fact that maybe I missed it.
The company that shapes for Severne, I think Nude, also does for Starboard, and themselves.The Starboard , has that written all over it, with a small bit at the back saying shaped by... I Hope Nude is right, getting old sucks.
i have to take this a step, further , if Keith Teboul the shaper for both Quatro and Goya, did shape for NAISH or anyone else, would he not be an employee of NAISH or the other ?

To promote that our riders are on production gear, when they are not is an untruth.
i think that the better tennis players , have custom racquets that look production, and display them whenever possible.

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Gestalt said..

Cluffy said..
Team riders have been using custom boards painted up as production since the year dot. How else are manufacturers supposed to do any decent development. Calling people out for it is like handing out speeding tickets at the bathurst 1000.

this is an interesting take. everyones going to have their own view.

for me if the rider is on custom boards from the sponsors shaper then that's just develpoment.
if the rider is on custom boards form an external shaper and the sponsor makes that well known then that's all good too.

when the rider is on a custom board not from the sponsor and then monday the sponsor uses the media and interviews to make out their boards/sails are superior and winning at the top level then that's false advertising and lies.

take it a step further. as a sponsored rider Bernd has interviews, photoshoots and social media responsibilities for sup, foiling and windsurfing. So day in day out he is lying about what he uses, what he thinks and all in the name making money. how anyone can think that's ok worries me.

The custom boards I was referring to are prototypes shaped by the manufacturer for the purpose of development or tuned to the requirements of the rider. I should have made this clearer in my original post . I'm not sure how often boards are shaped specifically for certain people but my best guess is not very often these days as a lot of PWA riders are on a budget and rely on prize money.

I agree with you about the false advertising and my own take is custom boards designed by the riders sponsor is fine but 3rd party boards painted up not so much. If the rider is taking money from one sponsor and clearly using another's gear without the sponsors permission well, all the sponsored sailors I've met would never dream of doing that . Most of them were delighted to have a sponsor at all and gave them their total support.

Suggest we all have a refresh of custom vs production and watch this youtube video again ....

This is a complex issue but not one to take sides over - this spat is more an indication of the state of the windsurf industry right now.
I have nothing to lose if I spill the beans here.

A lot of the companies/brands continue to be run by enthusiasts, who's concern is more for the sport, than it is for being in a profitable business. They will be struggling right now.
Other brands were bought up by bigger companies years ago, and their accountants will look at a balance sheet before they think how great a board is - or at whether the rider is on a custom shape or not. That's why a lot of good sponsored sailors get dumped, even when they do a good job. We will see more of this very soon.

The riders are in a similar position, where making money from their skills is at an all time low. At some point each 'windsurfing pro' - or wannabe - must wonder why they chose windsurfing and not soccer or basketball. You also have to wonder now what will happen as the world goes into the forthcoming recession. Some great sailors who were on the PWA tour last year have already lost sponsors for this season - and now there is no tour anyway.

So it's a mistake to see this as an argument between sacked sponsored sailor and his ex employer. For sure, Bernd shouldn't have blabbed off what he thought, in an off-the-cuff answer to a question asked in an interview. And nor should we all take Robby Naish's side, just because we know he's a great guy and we all like him. When he was Bernd's age he too had amazing talent but financially he had it easy. He was given big cheques for that big smile, and for a while he was THE poster boy for all windsurfing. We can't now have sponsored sailor dissing their former brands, but nor can we have those who made big money from the sport dissing the next generation who now have nothing - no future.

And let's not kid ourselves here: Most sponsored sailors now are lucky if they get given free gear, and then they are expected to fill social media with their exploits and to come up with photos for magazines. I know of one sponsored sailor who was asked to attend the annual photo shoot and then found he was expected to sleep in the garage. Very few sailors on the tour get enough money from their sponsors even to cover the flying costs to events..
Every event has an entry fee as well as prize money and in waves you have to be in the top ten to hope to earn more than you pay out.
Just to keep going, you probably need to win events, have a board and sail sponsor, plus an outside sponsor or rich parents. The only ones making money nowadays will be those with numerous big brand stickers on their sails. (You might note that most sailors no longer have stickers on their sails).

Some sponsored sailors help their cause by competing in SUP and in Kiting as well as in Windsurfing . They then get exploited as all round watermen, with photoshoots lasting three times as long, but with the pay cheque being just as small.

For years we've all been fed this fantasy that the sailors and brands are all 'living the dream' when the truth is that someone else is usually paying for it, and that both keep going by following their passion rather than monetary sense.


The custom-versus-production board discussion is another red herring here.
To sail well at one specific spot like Ho'okipa you might indeed need one shape that suits your weight, your sailing style, and for that unique wave. So Maui sailors often sail custom boards which sometimes then get logo'd up to look like production gear. But elsewhere in the world we often sail in **** wave conditions and our weapon of choice will often be a production board we know well.

Wave sailors on the PWA wave tour do not have to be on production gear under the rules, but most are. Sometimes they will be on the same shapes as us but their versions might be a bit lighter or else built with higher end materials to be stronger - for example, to take the 90kgs sailor landing a double loop.
Most brands will tell you if their PWA sailors are on production boards or not. In some disciplines, they have to be.

Great replay. Our industry/spot is shrinking and this shutdown may be the final nail.

I guess he wasn't pulling his weight with Naish so he got the boot, like every sport if your not promoting your sponsors and giving them good return for there cash why keep paying you.

As far as custom boards i thought PWA sailors had to use production stuff. Most of the pro sailors i know use Productions boards unless it is a proto for the company the are sponsored by, or if they were a custom from another shaper it was only because the brand didn't make a board small enough etc.

Basically if you accept the cash or benefits from a sponsor it's your job to slut yourself off to promote them, after all the more gear they sell is beneficial to you.

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P.C_simpson said..
I guess he wasn't pulling his weight with Naish so he got the boot, like every sport if your not promoting your sponsors and giving them good return for there cash why keep paying you.

As far as custom boards i thought PWA sailors had to use production stuff. Most of the pro sailors i know use Productions boards unless it is a proto for the company the are sponsored by, or if they were a custom from another shaper it was only because the brand didn't make a board small enough etc.

Basically if you accept the cash or benefits from a sponsor it's your job to slut yourself off to promote them, after all the more gear they sell is beneficial to you.

I agree with your comments. However, in PWA wave performance there are no production board equipment restrictions but PWA racing is different with prescribed rules for registering equipment.

www.pwaworldtour.com/index.php?id=1373

Professional Windsurfers Association 2006 Rule BookPART 1 - GENERAL RULES

"EQUIPMENT(a) There are no restrictions on equipment other than those defined in the PWA Rule Book. The PWA reserves the right to impose further restrictions on equipment in the interests of safety or fair competition. No such prohibition shall be made without stating such in the Notice of Race.(b) Only sailboards are eligible for use in competition at PWA sanctioned and recognized events. Competitors may not compete on equipment using a kite system. A sailboard is a surfboard using a free sail system. A free sail system means a swivel-mounted mast not supported in a permanent position while sailing.(c) Equipment which in the opinion of the Race Director could cause injury to competitors must be prohibited. It is the responsibility of each competitor to check this aspect of his/her equipment with the Race Director. Under this Rule, rigging on the mast and sharp nosed boards which could cause injury to competitors must be prohibited. Competitors failing to obey instructions in this regard may be penalized under Rule 1.12."


Professional Windsurfers Association 2006 Rule BookPART 2 - RACING RULES

"{2.5} EQUIPMENT RESTRICTIONS A sailor may compete with 2 boards and 4 sails for the Slalom 42 discipline at any Race event. A sailor may only use equipment which is registered in his/her own name.Competitors may only register boards from the PWA Registered Board list. Competitors may only register sails from the PWA Registered Sails ListBoards shall be no wider than 80cm
Sails shall be no bigger than 10 square meters. Boards and sails must be registered by manufacturers according to the standard PWA registration process, details of which are available from the PWA office and may be altered from time to time at the discretion of the PWA."

The Bernd aspect of this is a bit sad for all parties, he is young, might have made a rash decision, but hopefully can live with it as it seems he is keeping his morals/ethics intact. Naish seems to do a good job of identifying local Hawaiian talent (Kai Lenny) and nurturing them to the top level, but for whatever reason once they get there it seems to be a bit of a dead end. And eventually they will be forced to part ways, hopefully in an amicable fashion. i.e. Kai Lenny.

The proto/custom boards side of this issue is pretty straightforward in my opinion, there are proto's and there are customs:
1. Protos to assist in development of the brands equipment for next year. Protos are great, and a lot of brands even promote them as part of their marketting to show the R&D they are doing. I'm sure a lot of the west coast guys see heaps of Starboard/Severne Proto gear, and the euro pros always have the NP/JP/fanatic/duotone proto stuff.
2. Customs because the brand they ride for just doesn't invest to build the gear they need to perform. This seems to be where Bernd got stuck. And customs where for edge cases, where there just isn't a business case to build a particular board because there is only a handful of guys, on a handful of days that would require equipment like that. From the Naish perspective you could argue they don't have a business case to build a proper waveboard for Hookipa conditions... a bit odd considering where they are based.

I'd speculate that if Bernd was riding protos to help develop Naish boards for next season, this wouldn't have been an issue at all. The issue from what I see sorta stems from the fact that Naish have 1 wave board at the moment, that's primarily designed as a single fin... seems a bit old school but not, and sorta looks like more of a freewave board then a proper wave board. Naish seems to have given up on the proper waveboard market, their board range overall is pretty abysmal, and I'd struggle to see why anyone would look at them first if they were looking to purchase windsurfing equipment. And this probably runs pretty true overall as you just don't see much Naish gear out there these days. Does just seem like Bernd's style and Naish as a brand just doesn't make sense anymore.

Naish just isn't a top tier windsurfing equipment manufacturer these days. And they also don't seem to have that boutique custom high performance feel and following that brands like Patrik/Goya/Quattro have. Doesn't seem like they do a massive amount of development or have many top level sailors on their team (in windsurfing), top level as in competing at top levels of PWA/IWT comps. Doesn't seem like they really do enough to get behind really high level sailors or convince them to stay... e.g. Kai Lenny, Bernd etc.

Not sure where they sit overall, are they still a popular kite/SUP brand? Is Naish dead/dying? Robby says he is the only shareholder, maybe he needs to inject some fresh blood in there to fire things up again. I think it might just take a bit more than being a living legend/great guy/working hard.

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swoosh said..
Naish seems to do a good job of identifying local Hawaiian talent (Kai Lenny) and nurturing them to the top level, but for whatever reason once they get there it seems to be a bit of a dead end. And eventually they will be forced to part ways, hopefully in an amicable fashion. i.e. Kai Lenny.

I am guessing Kai Lenny got too expensive for Naish. He has 636k followers on Instagram, a big spread across several water sports and finanical support from Tagheuer, Hurley, Redbull, Nike etc.

He manages his social presence like a job and it shows on all his channel. He falls squarely into the influencer category were he is selling a lifestyle rather than a particular sport. Outside industry brands love that.

When you compare that to Bernd Roediger you can see the difference. He has 8500 followers on Instagram and only 16 subscribers on YouTube. There are 3 videos posted on the YouTube channel in total... and while there are 50 on his Vimeo channel the last video was posted a year ago.

I think the days of simply relying on your skills in a particular sport are over. If anything don't have to be the best in your chosen sport but you have to be on top of your game promoting it... and that means being able to produce content or hire / create relationships with the right people to help you produce the content.

The argument could be made that sports brands should help athletes they sponsor by teaching them how to navigate this new marketing approach. Most windsurf brands probably aren't big enough and have the resources to hand hold everyone through he process. Plus other windsurfers have figured out how to do that without help. Just look at the amount of content people like Richardo and Balz Mueller are putting out.

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swoosh said..
The Bernd aspect of this is a bit sad for all parties, he is young, might have made a rash decision, but hopefully can live with it as it seems he is keeping his morals/ethics intact. Naish seems to do a good job of identifying local Hawaiian talent (Kai Lenny) and nurturing them to the top level, but for whatever reason once they get there it seems to be a bit of a dead end. And eventually they will be forced to part ways, hopefully in an amicable fashion. i.e. Kai Lenny.

The proto/custom boards side of this issue is pretty straightforward in my opinion, there are proto's and there are customs:
1. Protos to assist in development of the brands equipment for next year. Protos are great, and a lot of brands even promote them as part of their marketting to show the R&D they are doing. I'm sure a lot of the west coast guys see heaps of Starboard/Severne Proto gear, and the euro pros always have the NP/JP/fanatic/duotone proto stuff.
2. Customs because the brand they ride for just doesn't invest to build the gear they need to perform. This seems to be where Bernd got stuck. And customs where for edge cases, where there just isn't a business case to build a particular board because there is only a handful of guys, on a handful of days that would require equipment like that. From the Naish perspective you could argue they don't have a business case to build a proper waveboard for Hookipa conditions... a bit odd considering where they are based.

I'd speculate that if Bernd was riding protos to help develop Naish boards for next season, this wouldn't have been an issue at all. The issue from what I see sorta stems from the fact that Naish have 1 wave board at the moment, that's primarily designed as a single fin... seems a bit old school but not, and sorta looks like more of a freewave board then a proper wave board. Naish seems to have given up on the proper waveboard market, their board range overall is pretty abysmal, and I'd struggle to see why anyone would look at them first if they were looking to purchase windsurfing equipment. And this probably runs pretty true overall as you just don't see much Naish gear out there these days. Does just seem like Bernd's style and Naish as a brand just doesn't make sense anymore.

Naish just isn't a top tier windsurfing equipment manufacturer these days. And they also don't seem to have that boutique custom high performance feel and following that brands like Patrik/Goya/Quattro have. Doesn't seem like they do a massive amount of development or have many top level sailors on their team (in windsurfing), top level as in competing at top levels of PWA/IWT comps. Doesn't seem like they really do enough to get behind really high level sailors or convince them to stay... e.g. Kai Lenny, Bernd etc.

Not sure where they sit overall, are they still a popular kite/SUP brand? Is Naish dead/dying? Robby says he is the only shareholder, maybe he needs to inject some fresh blood in there to fire things up again. I think it might just take a bit more than being a living legend/great guy/working hard.

I think Naish has taken on Ricardo Campello and Justina Sniady both in the PWA. Robby wants to push windsurfing more and he believes foiling and the Windsurfer LT is a way forward to translate into sales as is the experience with many other brands and the other aspect is investing in new riders for his new "wave" team as stated. Bernd must have had his day at Naish due to lack of returns to his sponsor relative to others coming on. The Assault looks like a good board but I would prefer the custom version with the normal nose, if I was getting one, but that one is not easily obtained in Australia, but can be ordered according to Naish. Expect new wave models for Campello in the range I would say. Australian market may not be well served, at least from windsurfing perspective, by Naish distributors/dealers from what I can see, not sure why, perhaps too many brands /boards for a small market in this country, already saturated by many others. Naish is more of a SUP brand in Australia, unless I am mistaken. Naish boards don't quote weights on their website which I find annoying.

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JakeNN said..
Suggest we all have a refresh of custom vs production and watch this youtube video again ....

In case anyone didnt watch this, at 0:20 the stubby he is using now is production, but came from a proto board he was using the previous year. At 5:00 onwards he said all the Fanatic riders had slightly different boards and the board that actually made it into production is one out of all of those which fits most. When Fernandez won in Tenerife 2015 his board had the tri-fin board graphics but four fins. Maybe they should stick to a corporate colour and not match the graphics from a different board.
You know when they do well on a production board at an event because they all shout about it.
I dont have an issue with PWA sailors sailing prototypes, but its when they try to pull the wool over customer's eyes I lose interest in them.
Fanatic isnt the one brand to do this either.

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Basher said..

The custom-versus-production board discussion is another red herring here.
To sail well at one specific spot like Ho'okipa you might indeed need one shape that suits your weight, your sailing style, and for that unique wave. So Maui sailors often sail custom boards which sometimes then get logo'd up to look like production gear. But elsewhere in the world we often sail in **** wave conditions and our weapon of choice will often be a production board we know well.

Wave sailors on the PWA wave tour do not have to be on production gear under the rules, but most are. Sometimes they will be on the same shapes as us but their versions might be a bit lighter or else built with higher end materials to be stronger - for example, to take the 90kgs sailor landing a double loop.
Most brands will tell you if their PWA sailors are on production boards or not. In some disciplines, they have to be.

1st point - isnt that what Roediger was saying? He sails a custom board then flogs production? Whether this is true for Naish boards or not, I dont know. Naish says its not.

2nd point - If thats not a definition of a custom board then I dont know what is. Retailer 'These boards are really strong, did you see sailor X landing double forwards' or 'Did you see sailor X planing in almost zero wind, these boards are really light'.

Solution. PWA specifies production boards only, like they do for slalom.

Bernd said he was dumped by Naish. (He didn't say he left at his own accord regarding his ethical issues with concerns for deception of retail customers).

He then justifies his dumping by taking the higher ground, defaming Naish, and raising the "local custom" board makers that he rides. (He knew he would be riding those boards before he signed with Naish).

Quatro don't seem to care who rides their boards, or what logo they are sprayed with:

quatrowindsurfing.com/company/story/

I reckon Keith and the team are just stoked to be shaping boards for the world's best, and enjoys seeing them being ridden properly.

90% of Hookipa riders are on KT, whatever colour and logo they are re-sprayed with. The only riders I have seen NOT on KT boards were on Fanatic, Patrik, or Simmer. Can't think of any others.

If it was an interview with IWT, why should they not post it?

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obenebo said..
Bernd said he was dumped by Naish. (He didn't say he left at his own accord regarding his ethical issues with concerns for deception of retail customers).

He then justifies his dumping by taking the higher ground, defaming Naish, and raising the "local custom" board makers that he rides. (He knew he would be riding those boards before he signed with Naish).

Quatro don't seem to care who rides their boards, or what logo they are sprayed with:

quatrowindsurfing.com/company/story/

I reckon Keith and the team are just stoked to be shaping boards for the world's best, and enjoys seeing them being ridden properly.

90% of Hookipa riders are on KT, whatever colour and logo they are re-sprayed with. The only riders I have seen NOT on KT boards were on Fanatic, Patrik, or Simmer. Can't think of any others.

If it was an interview with IWT, why should they not post it?

The JP team are pretty keen on their own boards from what I've heard/seen and i'm close friends with a few of them. But they're designed and tested at hookipa pretty much exclusively so I guess they should work there.

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R1DER said..
So what brand custom boards has Bernd Rosigner been using?

I'd guess the board in the IWT video was a Brian Cartwright shape?
mauisurfreport.blogspot.com/2007/07/brians-fish-maliko-race-video.html

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RuaraidhK257 said..

obenebo said..
Bernd said he was dumped by Naish. (He didn't say he left at his own accord regarding his ethical issues with concerns for deception of retail customers).

He then justifies his dumping by taking the higher ground, defaming Naish, and raising the "local custom" board makers that he rides. (He knew he would be riding those boards before he signed with Naish).

Quatro don't seem to care who rides their boards, or what logo they are sprayed with:

quatrowindsurfing.com/company/story/

I reckon Keith and the team are just stoked to be shaping boards for the world's best, and enjoys seeing them being ridden properly.

90% of Hookipa riders are on KT, whatever colour and logo they are re-sprayed with. The only riders I have seen NOT on KT boards were on Fanatic, Patrik, or Simmer. Can't think of any others.

If it was an interview with IWT, why should they not post it?

The JP team are pretty keen on their own boards from what I've heard/seen and i'm close friends with a few of them. But they're designed and tested at hookipa pretty much exclusively so I guess they should work there.

There are plenty of JP boards on Maui with KT signed on the back. Probably more than the WG scribble. When Ricardo was on JP, they were not WG. Same for Kaelii, Jason, - actually every JP and Starboard board I have seen at hookipa was a resprayed KT.

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philn said..

R1DER said..
So what brand custom boards has Bernd Rosigner been using?

I'd guess the board in the IWT video was a Brian Cartwright shape?
mauisurfreport.blogspot.com/2007/07/brians-fish-maliko-race-video.html

Bernd shapes his own boards.