After looking into this photo myself, it is a wrong stance, and I decide to improve it..



There are few errors I made
- Very poor super 7 stance (actaully non-existent)
- back hand too far back
- body facing the rig, because of the far back hand and foce the body to turn to the rig..
- front leg not straight

The problems I am having
- Spin out when going marginal plaing (foot position is close to footstrap, but not yet in) in my big 6.7 sail, not in my 5.5
- catapult in full planing conditions in my 5.5 with foot in both straps

After reading guy cribb documents
www.guycribb.com/userfiles/documents/EarlyPlaning.pdf
www.guycribb.com/userfiles/documents/GetLow.pdf
www.guycribb.com/userfiles/documents/The%20Truth%20About%20Harness%20Lines.pdf

and reading the previous post

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/Harness-line-position-and-effect-on-stance/

I realise the mistake I made on stance is a common error among windsurfers (at least in the documents, the pros are making it)..which scares me.

Guy Cribb has made three important points
- OVER hand grip.
- Your back thumb OVER the back harness line.
- Your chin OVER your waist

When I first read these documents, I have no idea how it works. Especially regarding the harness line position.. If I use "one-third" rule as suggested by guy cribb, my front hand is quite heavy in non-planing conditions, but in planing, it is perfect. In planing conditions, I used to place my back hand much back, now with the rear back hand thumb on the rear harness lines, it is perfect..

If your rear hand is far behind the harness lines, I have to twist the body and shoulder for a correct stance, which is very unnatural for the body. Now my body is facing forward, not facing the rig as I did before. My shoulder can lean out sideways, front leg is straight..

I am still exploring this stance, but what a difference after changing the stance

I just want to say these are things that it is very hard to pick up without an instructor. Same as my waterstart, once my friend taught me, it is a quite easy task. Before, it took me a long time to figure out without someone teaching me

Now I understand, if you stance is good and the harness line is perfect, you should be able to sail with your back hand off the boom. This is an indication of proper harness line set up. if my back hand is further back, my body will face the rig and cannot learn outwards..

I am bit suprised not many people emphasised the importance of back hand on the rear harness lines. It is such an important indication of a correct instance..

harness lines aside your main issue there is your front leg is not straight and your back leg is too bent.

when you straighten your front leg it twists your body and "opens" your stance. having a more open stance prevents over sheeting and stalling. it also removes pressure from your back foot and reduces tendency to spin out. additionally having a straight front leg allows you to drive the the nose of the board forward and down improving early planing and trim.

the quickest way to fix your stance in the picture above (including adjusting harness lines as you've outlined) is to straighten front leg, bend back leg, straighten arms fully and then open up your hands and push your palms against the boom. ie. so you are pushing the boom away from you. this will straighten up your upper body and make you load the harness.

in the picture above you are applying your weight through the boom via your arms and not via your harness.

I think the concept of body not facing the rig is a contentious one and can depend on sailing direction. it was always taught to me that your chest/hips should be parallel to the rig and your head looking forward. you "twist" at the legs by having a straight front leg and relaxed back leg. keeping your waist parallel to the sail stops you from killing your back and helps you load your harness line evenly. so when you twist the rig twists with you. both of your arms should be straight.

the contentious part is that there is a technique used by slalom sailors where they twist at the waist slightly openning their stance further and roll their front shoulder forward. from what I can gather this does 2 things. it helps keep your rig more upright and it puts more downward pressure through the mast foot.

the biggest mistake I see people getting into the sport making is the closed stance. if you look at the experienced guys on the water yo uwill see they are twisting at the legs and actually have their rigs open more. open as in not oversheeted.

for going high upwind it's the opposite, straight back leg and bent front leg. swinging your body weight forward.

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Gestalt said..

the quickest way to fix your stance in the picture above (including adjusting harness lines as you've outlined) is to straighten front leg, bend back leg, straighten arms fully and then open up your hands and push your palms against the boom. ie. so you are pushing the boom away from you. this will straighten up your upper body and make you load the harness.

Hi Benyip,
I am commenting because I have been on a similar journey. I like what Gestalt has said because it matches some of the improvements I have made. I also read a lot of the articles by Cribb, although it is not easy to put everything together on the water. Looking at your photo and the bent arms reminds me of myself to some degree. One of the problems with bent arms is that your harness lines can easily unhook if you are bouncing in some chop. I found that by pushing away fro my body, both arms, had the advantage of placing my rig more upright and faster. Better balance on the plane was also achieved by getting my backside more down and out, as per Cribbs article on the same. This allowed me to be more committed in the harness and able to gain more speed from gusts. Neither does the harness unhook at inappropriate times.

Thanks Gestalt for the upwind stance. I am going to try it out next time I'm on the water.

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MarkSSC said..

Thanks Gestalt for the upwind stance. I am going to try it out next time I'm on the water.

cool,

for going as high as possible try twisting your rear foot so the heel is closer to the nose then your toes. hope that makes sense.

I think to make it simple you should concentrate with 2-3 basic things:

1 - add more downhaul to your sail, you are very light
2 - point your front foot forward, not laterally
3 - extend the front arm

Then after each run check your harness lines and boom position, until you feel balanced.
Also check guy Cribb article regarding 'hips to be square' stance

Good luck

Like this:



Looks like your oversheeted/pulling the sail in too much, and I reckon that's the root cause of all your problems with the stance.

The sail is pulled all the way in only when you are fully planing and in top gear and perhaps even then only when you are really heading upwind (apparently or not).

Let the wind flow around the sail. You want drive, not power.

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I remember when I learn windsurfing without harness I did use the correct stance as shown above (the lady and the kid)

I have runied my stance when I switch to harness...where I put my back arm far away from the rear harness lines.. and I have forgotton the basic stuff, especially I have successfully get into both straps my first time...too excited

Thanks for all your comments.. I did go through the articles as suggested..

I did change my stance last week, and it is quite easy change... and I have to admit it is a significant improvement. Upwind goes much more sharp (more up), and planes much much early

Now I am dealing with the heavy front arm in non-planing condition. Guy Cribb suggests to take my rear arm off, and push the rig forward. I just need some time to get used to it..

I am very suprised that even the pros are making this mistake as shown below in Guy Cribb article. the lady on the left has a similar (although better) instance than me, so I am not the only one forgot the basics






and the windsurfers on the left is doing the right thing, they can plane. Compare with the other windsufers. Guy cribb does mention the following screen, everyone can do carve gybe and jump, so the standard is high

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Gestalt said..
harness lines aside your main issue there is your front leg is not straight and your back leg is too bent.

when you straighten your front leg it twists your body and "opens" your stance. having a more open stance prevents over sheeting and stalling. it also removes pressure from your back foot and reduces tendency to spin out. additionally having a straight front leg allows you to drive the the nose of the board forward and down improving early planing and trim.

the quickest way to fix your stance in the picture above (including adjusting harness lines as you've outlined) is to straighten front leg, bend back leg, straighten arms fully and then open up your hands and push your palms against the boom. ie. so you are pushing the boom away from you. this will straighten up your upper body and make you load the harness.

in the picture above you are applying your weight through the boom via your arms and not via your harness.

I think the concept of body not facing the rig is a contentious one and can depend on sailing direction. it was always taught to me that your chest/hips should be parallel to the rig and your head looking forward. you "twist" at the legs by having a straight front leg and relaxed back leg. keeping your waist parallel to the sail stops you from killing your back and helps you load your harness line evenly. so when you twist the rig twists with you. both of your arms should be straight.

the contentious part is that there is a technique used by slalom sailors where they twist at the waist slightly openning their stance further and roll their front shoulder forward. from what I can gather this does 2 things. it helps keep your rig more upright and it puts more downward pressure through the mast foot.

the biggest mistake I see people getting into the sport making is the closed stance. if you look at the experienced guys on the water yo uwill see they are twisting at the legs and actually have their rigs open more. open as in not oversheeted.

for going high upwind it's the opposite, straight back leg and bent front leg. swinging your body weight forward.

That's what Guy Cribb said in his clinic..

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sboardcrazy said..

Gestalt said..
it was always taught to me that your chest/hips should be parallel to the rig and your head looking forward. you "twist" at the legs by having a straight front leg and relaxed back leg. keeping your waist parallel to the sail stops you from killing your back and helps you load your harness line evenly. so when you twist the rig twists with you.

That's what Guy Cribb said in his clinic..

Thank you, that was what the following article elaborate the above points, very glad that I have read the following before hand as a learner instead of applying the "old school" stance.
Thanks powersloshin for advice for asking me to read the following article bu Guy Cribb
www.guycribb.com/userfiles/documents/Stance-%20Hip%20To%20Be%20Square.pdf

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benyip said..

sboardcrazy said..

Gestalt said..
it was always taught to me that your chest/hips should be parallel to the rig and your head looking forward. you "twist" at the legs by having a straight front leg and relaxed back leg. keeping your waist parallel to the sail stops you from killing your back and helps you load your harness line evenly. so when you twist the rig twists with you.

That's what Guy Cribb said in his clinic..

Thank you, that was what the following article elaborate the above points, very glad that I have read the following before hand as a learner instead of applying the "old school" stance.
Thanks powersloshin for advice for asking me to read the following article bu Guy Cribb
www.guycribb.com/userfiles/documents/Stance-%20Hip%20To%20Be%20Square.pdf

Makes sense as how are you supposed to pull the sail on with the harness if you aren't parrallel to the sail at all points of sailing? I know I don't pull my big 7.5m in enough working as I face the front a bit too much and I'm too unfit..

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benyip said..
After looking into this photo myself, it is a wrong stance, and I decide to improve it..

you can easily be forgiven for it because a particular windsurfing manufacturer had been promoting that stance for some time, but there's something missing in your technique??



starboard encourage the same thing for amputees

WARNING - LONG RANT!

"I am very surprised that even the pros are making this mistake as shown below in Guy Cribb article".

If the pros are doing it, is it really a mistake? Sure, the pros are not perfect and coaching and constructive criticism is always good - but personally I'd be very cautious about claiming that those who win at pro level are not sailing very close to perfection! Most pics of Antoine Albeau I can find show him "doing the 7" unless he's overpowered, and he doesn't seem to do too badly.

It's (IMHO) highly debatable whether you should follow the "chin over waist" advice in the conditions in your pic. Check the pics on page 96 of the "get low" pdf - on the left is the 7 stance, which as Guy points out, is better for flat water and moderate winds. The "stick your bum out" style on the right of that page is better for 30 knots and rough water as he says - but you are sailing in conditions more like the left-hand pic and therefore should probably stick to the 7 style. And of course your board is a lot bigger than the ones Guy is talking about and therefore maybe putting weight on the board to hold it on the water (which is the reason he advocates chin over waist) is less of an issue. Note also that you are still not fully powered, which getting into the 7 position could fix.

Your back hand may not be too far back - it could well be that your front hand is too far forward. As Cribb says, many people sail with their harness lines too far forward. It's a hard habit to shake.

However, with the greatest respect to Guy Cribb, if I can go off on a rant, we SHOULDN'T always do things like set our harness line width or try to sail just like the pros. They sail differently in some ways because they are at a different level since this is what they do 9-5. Just as in every other form of human endeavour, their extra practice means that they can perform at a different level and normally in different conditions, and therefore their technique should be different to those of us who sail much less, on different gear in different conditions.

Something that really comes out and is fully accepted in coaching in one design boards and boats is that trim, stance etc not only have to change according to conditions (something that windsurfing technique articles sometimes miss IMHO) but also according to sailor skill. Those who are less expert need a stance and style that allows for their slower reactions, lower speeds, and reduced ability to trim and steer accurately.

As an analogy, many years ago people at my local beach were always making sure that they rigged just like Bjorn - same amount of twist, same outhaul etc. But the problem is that they were not Bjorn and they were not sailing where he sails. Bjorn was using bigger sails than they could use, and he was going faster even in the same conditions because of his skill and because that skill allowed him to use bigger sails. He was also doing his slalom racing normally in more open water than where we were sailing, and he didn't slow down in the gybes. Therefore Bjorn was travelling several knots faster all the time, was more powered-up, AND he didn't have to accelerate out of poor gybes or out of lulls. The end result is that Joe Average should NOT have tried to rig it like Bjorn.

In the real world, we also sail in conditions very different to those of the pros. We tend to encounter much bigger difference in apparent wind speeds, we aren't as fit, and therefore having wider harness lines allows us to stay in the harness longer if we are using different sails or different trim to the pros (as IMHO many of us should for the reasons given above). Even if we have exactly the same sail rigged exactly the same way, if we are less expert then we will be slower and spend less time raked back and powered up at speed and therefore there will be more variation in the relationship between the C of E and the mastfoot, which can affect the proper width for harness lines.

By the way, the caption of the pic showing multiple sailors claims that those on the left are planing because their technique is better - it also seems very likely that they are planing because they are further away from the area of light wind that often forms along the shore!

WTF is this this "Super 7" stance? [looks it up]

Oh. I see.

That stance is for when you are planing.
In your photo you are not planing.

And I wouldn't get too hung up on looking right. Your stance will change depending on the conditions. Like if I'm really looking to get planing in marginal conditions I've probably got my back leg straight and my front leg bent and the rig pushed really far forward, right to the edge of being catapulted. It's definitely not "super 7".

Once I do get planing everything kinds shifts back, the more so the faster I go.

That's about it actually. Don't make it complicated. Keep it simple.

Copy the sailors around you that are going the same speed.

_________

Hey is that Botany Bay? I'll be the other guy on a SuperFreak. Come say hello.

Umm, surely the OP is planing - the board is out of the water back to the mast and it's going fast enough to kick water off the lee rail or strap and to leave a bubbly wake.

The "7" stance can also be used when you are not fully planing;

World Raceboard champ Patrik Pollak is seen here 'doing the 7' while going upwind in marginal planing conditions, or less. It's also a nice piece discussing how you don't want to just copy styles, although copying can be incredibly useful IF the person you are copying is generally not too far off one's own talent and sailing on similar gear in similar conditions.

windsurfraceboard.blogspot.com/2011/03/on-road-to-perfection-patrik-pollak.html

Simon Bornhoft's tip series shows the use of Super 7 in marginal conditions;

boards.mpora.com/how-to/intermediate/bodywise-simon-bornhoft-part-2-move.html

Out of interest, I checked some pics of Bjorn on slalom gear - he still uses the underhand grip on the front arm, which seems to indicate it's not as bad as Guy Cribb says!

I probably favoured the poo stance of Guys even before I went to his clinic as I am only light so I often get overpowered conditions . I also use a board too big for the chop/compared to what everyone else is using so it suits me to absorb chop, keep mast foot pressure and use my weight best to hold the sail.
It just evolved to handle the conditions..