I have recently bought an 11.6 ( 205 lt) Bic WindSup equipped with a standard, back-swept 10”( 25 cm) Dolphin fin.

I have been windsurfing for many years, but I came to this" beginner"(?)board because I was unsatisfied with my previous “ planing” shortboards, as they perform poorly in light winds subplaning, ( 10-15 knts), which are the prevailing conditions here. I also like its exceptional stability.

Temporarily, I have rigged an older N.P. Garda 6.2 on it. In flat water, light winds sub-planing, the Bic handles well and meets my(modest) expectations of leisurely cruising, although I love when the speed picks up with the increasing wind. I definitely wouldn’t go back to shortboards, as they drastically reduce, among other things, my T.O.W, given the prevailing wind conditions here.

In stronger winds and especially in choppy waters, though, the board becomes unexpectedly more difficult to manage, as it tends to swirl on the top of the wave and does not respond to tacking and gibing as well as it does in flat water, no matter whether the centerboard is full out or retracted.
All in all, the board becomes a bit erratic or stalls even while the wind is blowing , sometimes taking directions not consistent with the gibe command for a given wind direction.

I suspect that it may be because the fin does not match the sail size and ,also, because it is too short and , back-swept as it is, it may come off the water all too easily when the front end dips in the wave.

In fact, the continuous ebb and flow of the waves under the board, may create “ water voids” under the fin, thus neutralizing it, albeit for a few seconds and this may be sufficient to cause spin-out or instability..

I’d be inclined to put a longer fin on it ( may be a 14 “ one, instead of 10 “, but not back-swept, as this may further reduce its lift ) but before investing in it, I’d like to hear somebody else’s opinions.

Thank you

Francone

Hi francone.
i began sailing way back on a board similar to the board you mentioned .
mine was a 11.3 with 190 litres .
it also had a dolphin fin as a standard fin .9.5 .i use to use a 6.5 and 7.0 .
i changed the fin after breaking the original .
i then got a 36 carbon pointer fin .then later a 38 ,which I found to big for it ,as there has a far bit of rail
in the water .the 36 was perfect .

there is hope yet... you said you didn't like short boards ,my i suggest trying a wider board .like 84 wide and 240 long .130-150 litres.
they are so easy to use .
dont stop trying new boards ,there s a short one out there you will like .

Try a jp super light wind, they are the go for light wind short boards. 92cm wide, 168 litres.

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Tardy said..
Hi francone.
i began sailing way back on a board similar to the board you mentioned .
mine was a 11.3 with 190 litres .
it also had a dolphin fin as a standard fin .9.5 .i use to use a 6.5 and 7.0 .
i changed the fin after breaking the original .
i then got a 36 carbon pointer fin .then later a 38 ,which I found to big for it ,as there has a far bit of rail
in the water .the 36 was perfect .

there is hope yet... you said you didn't like short boards ,my i suggest trying a wider board .like 84 wide and 240 long .130-150 litres.
they are so easy to use .
dont stop trying new boards ,there s a short one out there you will like .

This WindSUP/longboard s the last of a fairly long sequence of shortboards , including a Bic Techno 165 lt, a Starboard Rio, the widely acclaimed, super-light Taboo Rocket 165 lt and the 293 cm long , 82 cm wide Bic 293 Core, the last one I had and supposedly the closest ever to a longboard, length-wise.

Unfortunately, as I said, all of these boards performed poorly in light winds subplaning and drastically cut my T.O.W.
I don’t deny that there may be other boards , meeting my needs, but I can no longer afford to keep wasting money in trying boards.
The Bic WindSup, a part the fin issue, is the best so far and most likely my last board, also given my…advancing age. I’ll stick to it. I have to !

Your similar experience with the fin makes me hope that I can fix the problem by using a longer fin, which is relatively unexpensive.

By the way, somebody gave me an old Mistral Competition longboard of the 90’s, sometime ago . I used it a couple of times then I desisted because I found it too narrow and way too wobbly. On top of this, the fin is just about the same length and shape as the new Bic WindSup's fin , so I always thought there is no point in using it.
I don’t know what performance I should expect from it, compared to the WindSup, but may be I should try it..

Thanks for the input

Francone

Francone,

You might think about going to a windsurfing rental shop that carries a variety of boards, and rent several different models to see if any are to your liking. Then you can buy the one you like. You will then develop a preference for a desired shape in which you like and then when you need a newer board later on, you will know what shape works for you and it will take you right to the source. Hang in there, part of windsurfing is weeding out all the equipment you don't like.

EXCELLENT suggestion MagicRide
here in MTL - www.apvm.ca/?page_id=56
they have:
StarBoard
GO --139 250x80
GO --155 255x85
GO --170 256x90
Start 180 255x100

and all seem to come with fins over 48 cm
ready for sails to @ least 8-oh

Hi Francone, forget the bigger fin, use the side thrusters,

3 of us up here have the 11'6 BIC windsup with centerboard and absolutely love em
as a light wind alternative in 3-10kn and as a paddle board below 5kn

I've been caught out in 20kn with a 8m sail and never had a problem with the supplied 10' fin
but I also use 2x 12cm FCS side thruster fins which I think you'll find will be the answer to your problems

As the BIC has a US finbox you'll be lucky if you can find a bigger than 10" fin
and if you do will be at greater risk of rolling the finbox out if you hit something

In stronger winds don't use the centerboard ,
mast track back a bit and get your weight right to the back of the board to get the front of the board right outa the water
You'll also find it very easy to do a planning gybe from the back of the board whilst really raking the rig hard forward.

Also Google/YouTube some longboard techniques,
Forget all your shortboard skills, this is longboard sailing and you'll have a sh!tload of fun with this board

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Francone said...

Tardy said..
Hi francone.
i began sailing way back on a board similar to the board you mentioned .
mine was a 11.3 with 190 litres .
it also had a dolphin fin as a standard fin .9.5 .i use to use a 6.5 and 7.0 .
i changed the fin after breaking the original .
i then got a 36 carbon pointer fin .then later a 38 ,which I found to big for it ,as there has a far bit of rail
in the water .the 36 was perfect .

there is hope yet... you said you didn't like short boards ,my i suggest trying a wider board .like 84 wide and 240 long .130-150 litres.
they are so easy to use .
dont stop trying new boards ,there s a short one out there you will like .

This WindSUP/longboard s the last of a fairly long sequence of shortboards , including a Bic Techno 165 lt, a Starboard Rio, the widely acclaimed, super-light Taboo Rocket 165 lt and the 293 cm long , 82 cm wide Bic 293 Core, the last one I had and supposedly the closest ever to a longboard, length-wise.

Unfortunately, as I said, all of these boards performed poorly in light winds subplaning and drastically cut my T.O.W.
I don’t deny that there may be other boards , meeting my needs, but I can no longer afford to keep wasting money in trying boards.
The Bic WindSup, a part the fin issue, is the best so far and most likely my last board, also given my…advancing age. I’ll stick to it. I have to !

Your similar experience with the fin makes me hope that I can fix the problem by using a longer fin, which is relatively unexpensive.

By the way, somebody gave me an old Mistral Competition longboard of the 90’s, sometime ago . I used it a couple of times then I desisted because I found it too narrow and way too wobbly. On top of this, the fin is just about the same length and shape as the new Bic WindSup's fin , so I always thought there is no point in using it.
I don’t know what performance I should expect from it, compared to the WindSup, but may be I should try it..

Thanks for the input

Francone

The Mistral should perform better in sub planning conditions being a narrower board. You'll just have to persevere with the balance and it will get easier. A larger fin will help the other issue but remember the fin boxes aren't super strong in SUPs so not too big.

the Mistral COMP SST came from me


I seem to be the only longboarder in Montreal
felt the board would be perfect for Francone
he felt is was "tippy" and had issues tacking
i had no such issues, but have been longboarding for about twenty(20) years
Franco has what he needs - just needs to practice, practice and more
i suggested the rental to show he has many choices and should not give up on shortboards - yet
even as a longboarder, i love my big JP SLW92


hope we get Francone on the water more often and loving it no matter the craft

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ducati said..
Hi Francone, forget the bigger fin, use the side thrusters,

Never thought about side thrusters! Glad you brought it up. But what are these FCS thrusters and who makes them? Cost? Are they made by Bic?
The store I bought the Bic WindSup from had the original Bic thrusters on display when they showed me the board, but they told me I don’t need them for windsurfing. So I am a bit puzzled. Can you elaborate a bit more on what they do and why they help?

I believe they are not necessary for upwind and small sails, because the board already has a center board and the standard fin is already supposed to match smaller sails . Perhaps what they do is to compensate for the small fin size when we use larger sails, like my old N.P. Garda 6.2 , by providing more lateral resistance, therefore, in the end, a better control of the board ( and perhaps more speed) in stronger winds and some choppy conditions.

Indeed these were the conditions I experienced and which prompted me to post on this subject. If this is what the thrusters do, in other words a better balance between sail and fin and a better tracking, then I may go for them, but definitely, I am not so sure I would buy them just to be able to cruise in..5 knts winds or so… Then I’d paddle it!

Thanks for your input, as usual


Francone

You can get genuine BIC (plastic) $40 for the 2 from where you bought your board or any surfboard shop
or do a search (fcs thruster fins) on ebay around the same price for f/glass ones

As you say they "compensate for the small fin size when we use larger sails by providing more lateral resistance"
In stronger winds when you start having control issues, being such a big board, you don't want to use your centerboard
that's when you need the extra bit of lateral resistance from the tail

the smaller 10'6 BIC Windsup which doesn't have a centerboard comes standard with the side thrusters

must say that I am surprised to hear thrusters are believed to be better for lateral resistance in rougher conditions
they are still wave shapes and about 10 inches
my longboards typically have no more 12 inch fins and if there are out of control issues, i drop the centreboard

where Francone is sailing , it is known to have waves, current and wind all going in the same direction
thus it is important to run at an angle to all of the above

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joe windsurf said..
must say that I am surprised to hear thrusters are believed to be better for lateral resistance in rougher conditions
they are still wave shapes and about 10 inches
my longboards typically have no more 12 inch fins and if there are out of control issues, i drop the centreboard

where Francone is sailing , it is known to have waves, current and wind all going in the same direction
thus it is important to run at an angle to all of the above

Joe

Ref thrusters: you probably mean 10 cm, not 10", because thrusters ( FCS or Bic) are only 10-12 cm long and I agree: individually, a 10 cm thruster, by itself, is probably too short to provide(or significantly increase )lateral resistance, but remember that there are two of them and, combined with the main fin, they may just do the job.
I also surmise that their position towards the edges of the board and also forward of the main fin may contribute even more to lateral resistance.. In those choppy waters I was navigating, those extra thrusters may provide more bite than the unaided ( and very short!) fin, rising off the water all too easily and too frequently.

Francone

yeah - they probably are 10-12 cm and NOT inches
which makes me doubt their efficiency for what you want to do - even MORE
kiters and wave sailers who use thrusters and multi-fins seem to need them for carving
in windsurfing when people speak about spin-out they typically suggest longer fins / or more area
to date I have not heard nor read about people putting thrusters for what you want to do

just recently went to OKA and waves were about 2 feet also
due to SW wind I was able to drive into or run with the waves
the only times I had issues was when I would try to tack my longboard
only then the waves were "overwhelming" and i got knocked in at least once

as I said previously - AAO has wind, current and waves sometimes all going in the same direction
and that is why I don't like Cartier either

you should try OKA - La Crête @ least once with a SW on-shore wind
you can run parallel to the beach and stay in waist deep waters

in summary - still don't think those extra thrusters will do it

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ducati said..
Hi Francone, forget the bigger fin, use the side thrusters

Yes, you should definitely use the side thrusters, they make more of a difference than you think. I have a Bic WindSUP 10.6, which uses the same fins. It works fine without the thrusters in light wind and flat water, but in waves and more wind, the board sails a lot better with thrusters (the difference gets quite dramatic when I downsize the center fin to do light wind freestyle in shallow water, but that's a different story).

So try that first, and make sure the daggerboard is up when the wind picks up. If you're still unhappy, getting a different center fin may also help. From your description, the issue is not so much getting more lift (which would help planing), but rather better directional stability. For that, area is more important than length. You may find that a weed fin works well, since weedies usually have more area. A weed fin would also move the center of lateral resistance back a bit, which also helps with directional stability.

The second issue you raise is that the board "does not respond to tacking and gibing as well as it does in flat water, no matter whether the centerboard is full out or retracted". One of the issues you have to deal with is that the chop and waves will push the longer board around much more than a shorter board. That's obviously not an issue on flat water. To counteract that, you need to move around the board more, from front to back, to change the waterline and keep the nose out of the chop. You can practice that even in light wind and flat water - try to get the board to turn in a really tight radius by stepping back, and keeping all your weight on your back leg.

If you have a lot of wind and the board is planing, keep in mind that the response to carving will differ depending on whether the daggerboard is up or down. With the daggerboard retracted, the carving will be similar to a shortboard (albeit slower); but with the daggerboard down, you'll have to weigh the opposite rail for the same response. Somewhere in between the fully down and the fully retracted position, there will be almost no reaction to rail pressure. In the wind conditions you typically sail in, you probably will not be planing fully even when the wind picks up. That will also mean a sluggish or non-existing response to carve attempts. You'll have to use sail steering, and move back on the board (or forward for tacks) to get the board to turn. Just play around a bit, and you'll figure it out!

okay , since the overwhelming response is "go for it" and i am not convinced ...
you go for it Franco and if you prove to me it helps you tremendously in the conditions you describe ...
i would buy you a beer, but i don't drink
so, i will get you a free lunch = happy meal time

Hi Joe, I'm guessing you're talking Raceboards and we're talking SUPS

The BIC 11'6 is really just a SUP with a centerboard and mast track and will never be a Raceboard it is more a huge waveboard
It's 350cm L x 82cm W with thin soft rails and a huge amount of constant rocker from nose to tail (about 40cm)

It starts planning in 5kn wind and I have had mine out in 20kn with a 8m sail with just centre and thruster fins and didn't look like spinning out.
But it's a very slow plane, prolly around 10 -15kn boat speed due to the huge amount of drag created by the rocker and width.

So we're NOT skimming on top of the water as you would on your Raceboard

And given we only have a US box the thrusters are a much cheaper option that really do work,
plus we get to skim across ankle deep water awesome

for sure Ducati, I am basing myself on longboards and my one outing with Francone on a Mistral Competition SST
when you were out in 20 knot winds, how bad was the chop and at what angle to your sailing ??
i follow the WindSUP and foil discussions since I often wonder what can get more people into the sport (and future trends)
so far inflatable boards and WindSUPs are doing a GREAT "job" !!!

fyi - seems kite foiling is getting more n more popular here
buddy foils with a 20 m² kite when there is a whisper of wind !!
no way i can get planing in those conditions
then again - perhaps it is time to put the 10 meter sail on the longboards again !!
just HATE uphauling that beast if i drop it @#$%^&*())

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boardsurfr said..
With the daggerboard retracted, the carving will be similar to a shortboard (albeit slower); but with the daggerboard down, you'll have to weigh the opposite rail for the same response.

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boardsurfr said..
With the daggerboard retracted, the carving will be similar to a shortboard (albeit slower); but with the daggerboard down, you'll have to weigh the opposite rail for the same response.

I had overlooked this. Undoubtedly true, because now I remember having heard this somewhere else, but it would be interesting to know why, from a hydrodynamics standpoint, we have to bank on the leeward rail to carve upwind, when the daggerboard is down, instead of the windward rail..

Francone

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ducati said..
Hi Francone, forget the bigger fin, use the side thrusters,


As the BIC has a US finbox you'll be lucky if you can find a bigger than 10" fin
and if you do will be at greater risk of rolling the finbox out if you hit something

Also Google/YouTube some longboard techniques,
Forget all your shortboard skills, this is longboard sailing and you'll have a sh!tload of fun with this board

I shopped around a bit and I found that I could get a real fiberglas fin ( 2nd hand) for about the same price of new thrusters. It would be a swept back weed fin, longer and bit larger than the10 " dolphin fin. In addition, it would be more rigid than the plastic Dolphin fin, so I think it may give more lift and directional stability than two short plastic thrusters. My windsurfing store said that for that size, I don't have to worry about rolling the fin box out ( I bought the board from them and if there was such a risk, they would have told me, because it would probably void the warranty. What do you think? Should I go for the real fin?

Francone