May I ask for a view on whats going on with me here, my board seems to jump up alot when I hit small swell on flat water. Have just changed from slimmer coastal waveboard riding to lagoon riding on a wider slalom board. Should I put the mastfoot forward, is the fin too big, or am I simply standing wrong ? Setup seems great when sailing fast with no swell, no riding up issues. I would play around with it of course but my outings are quite rare at the moment and I hesitate to spend on a smaller fin if thats not the issue.

much appreciate any thoughts.
?feature=share

Board 125 Exocet S Cross, 78 cm wide, 44 cm slalom fin as sold with the board, quiver 6.5 Gator and 7.0 Overdrive. Typical wind 16-20 knots.

Moving the base forward is an easy experiment.

I would think that 44 is a bit too big for it.
Ask some friends to lend you a 40cm and see how it goes,.

Seconding move the mast base forward. Also it looks like you are sheeting out a lot? Which will cause the nose to rise.

I've got a 77cm blast that I've run with 44cm (stock) and 43cm carbon fin and it doesn't fly that high even with straps all the way back, but I'm a intermediate so take my opinion with a huge gain of salt.

It's tuning and technique, would work on technique first. Try to get much lower, hang down on the boom so your sail produces downforce on the board which keeps it down. Also try not to sheet out but keep the sail sheeted in. Sheeting out will release the power and again reduces downforce which will lift the board. If the sail is too big, you might want to use a smaller sail.

This might help: www.guycribb.com/userfiles/documents/downforce.pdf

Simply not enough Mast Foot Pressure. Drop boom, move base fwd, sink into harness (sufficient line length). Bringing the sail and board together, check to see the tail of the board sits just inside the boom by a finger width, its a good reference point to start with. Only when these things are right can you start to worry about the right fin size...

+1 for the mast base recommendations, you are "riding a wheelie" as I like to say, because mast base is too far back. Just remember 1/2-1 cm difference can have a big impact, so after you move it forward and get the nose down, try adjusting 1/2-1 cm forward or back from that new good position to get it perfect. Just remember as you flatten the board out, and bring the nose down, the nose can catch a taller wave if you do not adjust your weight back to get over the wave. Also, with the board flatter your speed will increase a lot, so be careful!

Another + for mast foot pressure, I too thought you sheet out in the bumps, try stay sheeted in, that will keep more pressure on the mast foot, take weight off your feet, helping the nose stay down.

Mast foot forward maybe, technique definitely. Need to get sheeted in and stay there

That looks mostly like a stance issue to me. You are sailing much too upright and sheeted out, you need to get the weight off from your feet and into the harness. The speed of the board is also too low, you need to get flying on the fin and that only happens at higher speeds.

It's just you : )
Boom height and mastfoot position are no panacea(?).
Make some more time on the water (tow) and you will find the path of least resistance (the fastest).
Maybe lean a bit forward (find the katapult spot), but you're on the right track.
Was such a good time for me, the transition to the plane!

Select to expand quote

Jasonwave said..
May I ask for a view on whats going on with me here, my board seems to jump up alot when I hit small swell on flat water. Have just changed from slimmer coastal waveboard riding to lagoon riding on a wider slalom board. Should I put the mastfoot forward, is the fin too big, or am I simply standing wrong ? Setup seems great when sailing fast with no swell, no riding up issues. I would play around with it of course but my outings are quite rare at the moment and I hesitate to spend on a smaller fin if thats not the issue.

much appreciate any thoughts.


Board 125 Exocet S Cross, 78 cm wide, 44 cm slalom fin as sold with the board, quiver 6.5 Gator and 7.0 Overdrive. Typical wind 16-20 knots.

The fin is too big, the board is too big, you are standing too upright and sheeting out. The Gator 6.5m is more of a freemove sail suited to the Cross, not freerace like the board like the S-Cross.
The 115 S-Cross would have been better for your sail size and wind conditions.

But anyway, try a smaller fin, 38-40cm. Concentrate on keeping your legs more horizontal than upright, so the board can move up and down over the chop freely, rather than smacking into it as your weight is above the board.
You can see how Nico has his bum out, upright back, and at times his thighs are sometimes horizontal as he absorbs the chop.
You might need longer harness lines to do this.
I always felt on my Exocets that the mast track was quite far forward, so mostly used the rear of the track. At around 129-131cm on all my boards, Cross/S-Cross (2015)/S3/S4.

Select to expand quote

ptsf1111 said..
It's tuning and technique, would work on technique first. Try to get much lower, hang down on the boom so your sail produces downforce on the board which keeps it down. Also try not to sheet out but keep the sail sheeted in. Sheeting out will release the power and again reduces downforce which will lift the board. If the sail is too big, you might want to use a smaller sail.

This might help: www.guycribb.com/userfiles/documents/downforce.pdf

Guy's article was written in 2004, for boards of that era.

There is a video he has done recently about footstrap positions, that also covers riding in chop.
2:56 into the video
?t=176

Select to expand quote

Magnus8 said..
Bringing the sail and board together, check to see the tail of the board sits just inside the boom by a finger width, its a good reference point to start with.

This is an interesting one to me, but it's not really clear; with the sail rigged and mast base installed into the mast track on the board? With the sail separate, and placing the head of the boom at the intended mast base location?

^ Yep, rigged n connected to board.

Select to expand quote

The Gator 6.5m is more of a freemove sail suited to the Cross, not freerace like the board like the S-Cross.
The 115 S-Cross would have been better for your sail size and wind conditions.

I think it doesn't matter too much for his level. I'm using a Gator on a freerace board and it works perfectly fine, it's just a bit slower than the NCX but it's still quite fast and easy to sail so keep the sail or find a smaller one to practice on first. Better not to invest in more gear, just spend as many days on the water as you can and try to focus on one thing a time.

Select to expand quote

Guy's article was written in 2004, for boards of that era.

The boards have become wider and I feel most of this is still current so it's definitely worth a read.
Guy is still teaching those same core skills today. The footage used in the video that you shared is from those clinics and you'll find me in the video too .

Select to expand quote

olskool said..
^ Yep, rigged n connected to board.

So if your boom is higher because you're tall, you need to move the mast base forward accordingly. somehow that doesn't feel right to me, but I don't have a lot of practice being short so I'll take your word for it!

Someone here will explain the science behind it. But,
With the rigged sail connected to board, boom should just clear tail of board.
Harness line position sweetspot can also be checked by tilting board on edge n raking sail aft as if in sailing position. Harness lines sweetspot should fall centre between front n rear footstraps.
This means COE of sail is between both feet.
Found this to be a good start setup until you get familiar with the gear n learn to fine tune.

Select to expand quote

ozzimark said..

olskool said..
^ Yep, rigged n connected to board.

So if your boom is higher because you're tall, you need to move the mast base forward accordingly. somehow that doesn't feel right to me, but I don't have a lot of practice being short so I'll take your word for it!

Its one of those very rough guides for average height people on boards of average dimensions which you might find happens to fit your kit.
Some boards have squarer tails, some more pointy, so the boom hanging off the board by a finger's with wont work on both.

^ I guess 6'2" is average then huh?
Think you will find the Mastrack is set at "X" certain distance from the Tail of board, whether its pointy , square , or round.... Which is governed by the COE of sail.
Therefore the boom overhanging tail will lead to the correct setup which will then translate to correct stance. Equals Big Smiles...
Works on my 295, 270, n 250 length boards.
Actually TRY it next time.
See for yourself....
It sets the sail in the correct position in relation to footstraps n fin. Then choose fin according to sail n board.
44cm fin would better suit 8.5m sail.

My take on this is that you are at that classic stage in windsurfing where you are developing your windsurf 'stance' but here the board set up is forcing you into bad stance.

You are on a board with quite a bit of volume and width, and ideally that is meant for bigger rigs, so it has come with a very long fin.
That 44cms fin is way too big for 7m and 6.5m sails and at planing speed is giving too much lift, and we can see that the board is railing, plus you are forced to stand on the board tail to hold it down.
The board is planing nose-up, and the fin is the source of your issues here, like the tail wagging the dog.

When using too long a fin and having control problems one solution sometimes is to move the mast foot forwards - as that reduces the railing effect by taking mast foot pressure away from the fin box. But in this case that would just rake the rig back more and put even more body weight on the board tail. So it's doubtful your stance would improve.

The obvious solution is to buy or borrow a fin of 40cms or less, keep the mast foot centre track, and then see how you get on. I'd suggest 38cms for the 6.5m rig.
If at first you find you spin out with a smaller fin, then that's further proof you have too much body weight acting through the board tail - and the solution to that is to move your harness lines back on the boom and try and leans forwards more, both of which should mean more weight on your front foot.


All the advice about measuring boom height off the tail of the board is nonsense, and a distraction from the real issue here.

Thank you all, very clear.

This was the windiest day I got all summer. Local slalomers are all on 7.8m cammed sails 90% of the time, 75-80cm wide boards.

Follow up question : Would it be better for me to go up from 6.5 to +/-8m sail and learn to deal with the bigger size, or keep slogging most of the time with the lighter sail until Ive figured out the technique?

Chances to get out are sadly few and made harder by low tide depth problems. So when the opportunity arises I would rather it was me at fault and work on poor technique rather than blame the kit - so happy to just throw money at what I am loving whilst I still can if its going to make those precious moment easier and progression quicker.

Thanks again

Select to expand quote

Jasonwave said..
Thank you all, very clear.

This was the windiest day I got all summer. Local slalomers are all on 7.8m cammed sails 90% of the time, 75-80cm wide boards.

Follow up question : Would it be better for me to go up from 6.5 to +/-8m sail and learn to deal with the bigger size, or keep slogging most of the time with the lighter sail until Ive figured out the technique?

Chances to get out are sadly few and made harder by low tide depth problems. So when the opportunity arises I would rather it was me at fault and work on poor technique rather than blame the kit - so happy to just throw money at what I am loving whilst I still can if its going to make those precious moment easier and progression quicker.

Thanks again

Well the answer to that is it's easy to end up with a lot of windsurf gear, so a bit of long term planning is good!

You should ideally have the sail sizes which get you on the water as often as possible at your local spot - and in this case an 8m+ sail would go with the 44cms fin - but smaller rigs are more fun and better for manoeuvres and for learning, so I'd say get the shorter fin first.

I dunno - there's a lot of better sailors than me chiming in here already - but to me it looks much more like stance and approach are the issue rather than equipment. Sure, the fin is bigger than it needs to be but in the early part of the vid he's actually railing to windward so it's not ridiculously too big.

What seems clear to me is that ALL his weight is on his back foot - in fact at certain points I think his front foot is lifting UP. I don't think the mast base is that far off - he's nearly got the gap closed - but he's driving no power through the front leg or the mastfoot, so of course he's tailwalking. He can't truly sheet in from there because if he does he'll stall the fin.

As soon as he slides his hips forward to get some power down through the front foot the board will level off. It ought to feel like he's about to catapult, at least at first. At that point he can sheet in more aggressively and commit more weight to the harness which will drive the board through the mastbase an prevent a catapult. Once he's there and at full speed he can start to commit more weight to the back foot and really ride the fin, but that's several knots of board speed away.

Select to expand quote

olskool said..
^ I guess 6'2" is average then huh?
Think you will find the Mastrack is set at "X" certain distance from the Tail of board, whether its pointy , square , or round.... Which is governed by the COE of sail.
Therefore the boom overhanging tail will lead to the correct setup which will then translate to correct stance. Equals Big Smiles...
Works on my 295, 270, n 250 length boards.
Actually TRY it next time.
See for yourself....
It sets the sail in the correct position in relation to footstraps n fin. Then choose fin according to sail n board.
44cm fin would better suit 8.5m sail.

Some boards have their straps and fin further from the tail than others. So if you are balancing the sails CoE against where your footstraps are, how far the boom overhangs the tail is irrelevant.

Comparing the 2 extremes of my freeride/freerace boards;
On my 94l Cross freeride the straps are further from the tail and closest to where I put the mast base and the boom is set a bit lower.
On my S4 125l, the footstraps are near the tail and I set the boom higher for more power in light winds.

If your guide works for you, good, but it wont work for me.

Select to expand quote

Jasonwave said..
Thank you all, very clear.

This was the windiest day I got all summer. Local slalomers are all on 7.8m cammed sails 90% of the time, 75-80cm wide boards.

Follow up question : Would it be better for me to go up from 6.5 to +/-8m sail and learn to deal with the bigger size, or keep slogging most of the time with the lighter sail until Ive figured out the technique?

Chances to get out are sadly few and made harder by low tide depth problems. So when the opportunity arises I would rather it was me at fault and work on poor technique rather than blame the kit - so happy to just throw money at what I am loving whilst I still can if its going to make those precious moment easier and progression quicker.

Thanks again

I think the best thing to do is ask the locals, as they can see you sailing more clearly than we can, know the local conditions better, and might even loan you a smaller fin to try.

Select to expand quote

Jasonwave said..
Follow up question : Would it be better for me to go up from 6.5 to +/-8m sail and learn to deal with the bigger size, or keep slogging most of the time with the lighter sail until Ive figured out the technique?

That's a no-brainer: get the bigger sail, and learn to use it. A 7.8 3-cam like the Loft SwitchBlade may be a good step up from the 6.5. But since you already have a 7.0 and the wind is light at your place, an 8.5 may be better. Most 2-cams are a bit easier to rig and use than 4-cam race sails, and would be a better choice.

Slalom-type boards like to be ridden with a lot more sail and power than wave boards. The S cross is freerace, so it could be possibly used with a smaller sail, but it's closer to a slalom board than a wave board, and will be happier with more sail power.

I wouldn't go big on the sail at this stage. You might also get in trouble if you are unable to water start as uphauling a massive cam sail requires a lot of muscle. Also slalom/race sail size can't really be compared to a freeride sail, as they are generally much larger compared to those.

The 6.5 Gator is perfect to learn on and maybe the 7.0 if it is light wind but don't go bigger. You seem skinny so you might find that you won't need more sail but it requires good technique. That requires time on the water and commitment. The money is better spend on a holiday/clinic in a place that has good wind conditions.

See if you can source the Jem Hall "Beginner to Winner" DVD. I'm not particularly a fan of his coaching style, but the video instructions are quite good.Enjoy the journey!

I watched your vid 6 times ,and i think you are a little under powered ,and just finishing your run and entering a wind shadow ,but the main problem is your high stance
you need to get down and bend your knees and swing your weight toward the front of the nose ,drop your boom and move the mast base forward a little too ,that may help
so swing your weight forward ,don't lean back toward the tail too much ,as that will bring the nose up as shown in your video .
try and keep equal weight on each foot for balance and control .Try to close the gap on your sail ,between you board and sail .
as shown in the second picture ,this will help your stance and weight against the sail and your board TRIM will be better ..

I can see you are gaining in your skills and wanting to go faster ,it's a exciting time for you ,a bit of tuning and stance adjustments
you will be flying .

yes, square the hips to the centerline of the board and get your bum lower and legs extended to get more power, see if you can find other Guy Cribb's tutorials online, a lot of good advice there.

www.guycribb.com/userfiles/documents/Stance-%20Hip%20To%20Be%20Square.pdf

Many thanks again for all your generous time.

Coming from 15 yrs of kitesurf may I say the windsurfers attitude here and on the beach is really super.

PTSF1111 - "you seem skinny". Just got under 80kg for the 1st time in 20 years this summer - you made my day, gunna put my best shirt on and go dancing tonight.

Select to expand quote

Jasonwave said.. Coming from 15 yrs of kitesurf may I say the windsurfers attitude here and on the beach is really super.

PTSF1111 - "you seem skinny". Just got under 80kg for the 1st time in 20 years this summer - you made my day, gunna put my best shirt on and go dancing tonight.

May be an older more mature demographic?