I sail on a WindSup( Bic) in light to moderate winds and relatively flat waters.I know that the general rule is to position the mast base more backward for maneuverability and speed and forward for better control and directional stability, particularly when going upwind. I wonder if the sail size should also enter into the equation, requiring a further adjustment backward or forward, particularly when using relatively large sails, like in my case an HSM 8.0 .

I also wonder if anybody has experience on this type of board and can make suggestions about how to optimize the performance, particularly for planing. I know these boards are not primarily designed for this, but I hear that people can plane them in light winds.

From what I see, shortboarders step all the way back when planing, but windsups and longboards being as long as they are, no matter how far you step backward, you'll never be close enough to the fin and always too far behind the rig, which forces you to tilt it back.. Any comments ?

Thanks
Francone

Let me think about this. Raceboard wise. If i use a sail with a longer boom for the same m2, i think i move mastrack slightly forward. Compared to shorter boom. CE is slightly different. Depends on lift generated by sail also. Same scenario you explain is found by trying to reach while having mastrack right forward on a raceboard. Its not just about sail position but also includes board rocker. Ive drilled an extra hole in one of my mastracks to suit my weight n sail combination. Original was either too far forward or too far back. Now its in the sweet spot.

I use the 11'6 BIC WindSUP when the wind gets below 14kn. I also use some fcs thruster fins as well as the main fin. I only ever use a 6.5 sail and find that centre board up, mast base back and weight back helps the board plane when the wind is powerful enough. The rest of the time is spent cruising with a silly grin because these things are soooooo good and big sails are just not necessary.

on a shortboard I keep larger sails further up and smaller back
.
on the raceboard I typically keep it near the middle, but move it forward for better upwind
and back for better planing - nose goes UP
however, so far have NOT liked it with mast track all the way back YET
too bad I did not see you when I went to AAO SUNDAY 13AUG2017
.
can we assume WindSUP is like a longboard ??

Does the windsup have a centreboard?

The thing you will find with the windsup (as is the case with a lot of the older longboards) is the fin is relatively small. A larger fin will give you much more lateral resistance, meaning that the average centre of lateral resistance is further aft.

A bigger fin = lateral resistance further back = weight of rider and sail can go further back = less weight on front of board = better planing ability.

Try a bigger fin (say 34cm max) and see how it goes.

Clarence

Normally I sail a Kona One in sub planing as well as planing winds (when available) with early intermediate skills at best. It is a large heavy board but planes easily when conditions and rig are right.

Last week I sailed a Bic 11'6" Windsup . (it does have a centre board)
The winds were sub planing but heavy enough to hook in and cruise with a 6.5 sail.

I was very surprised how smooth and enjoyable the ride was. The soft padded deck was great on the feet without shoes.
A few times the board felt like it might take off but the wind was never really close to planing speed.

It made me wonder if that board can realistically plane in adequate winds or would there be too much drag to lift up and plane in an enjoyable manner?




I am almost 60 and I felt I could enjoy riding that board into my 80s !

Clarence, the Bic 11'6 comes with a 10 inch fin standard and you're right it needs more grip, that's why I put the extra FCS side fins on mine. The centreboard creates a heap of drag so you need to kick it up when you have enough power to plane, for light wind conditions a centreboard is essential for a windSUP to help point upwind. Once you get enough board speed you can easily move your weight back and load up the fins.

xxwindsurfer, it's not the quickest planing board out there but in enough power it planes easy. It catches waves easy, has bulletproof construction and there's no reason why you couldn't be sailing it into your eighties, especially if you can get your fit, 29yo wife to lift it onto the roof of the car for you

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Francone said..


From what I see, shortboarders step all the way back when planing, but windsups and longboards being as long as they are, no matter how far you step backward, you'll never be close enough to the fin and always too far behind the rig, which forces you to tilt it back.. Any comments ?

Thanks
Francone

When planing on any board the centre of resistance moves back as the board lifts out of the water (obvious right as the front 3/4's of the board is out of the water), therefore the centre of effort (sail) needs to move back (mast track and or tilting the rig back) in order to maintain the balance between centre of effort and centre of resistance.

Therefore on a raceboard you move the track back to plane and you also tilt the rig back and stand right at the back on top of the fin same as a shortboard.

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joe windsurf said..
on a shortboard I keep larger sails further up and smaller back
.
on the raceboard I typically keep it near the middle, but move it forward for better upwind
and back for better planing - nose goes UP
however, so far have NOT liked it with mast track all the way back YET
too bad I did not see you when I went to AAO SUNDAY 13AUG2017
.
can we assume WindSUP is like a longboard ??

The last time, with my HSM 8.0 I set the mast base past the mid-mark towards the rear, maybe 3/4 back. Probably too much. In fact,I noticed the nose was up and swerving a bit. Also the board was less responsive to steering upwind or downwind, probably because of this.

I'll probably go to AAO tomorrow and move the mast base this time 3/4 forward. I'll see how it goes.

With my 8.0 HSM , the outhaul range is between 200 cm ( minimum outhaul) for light winds and 220 cm max for strong(er) winds.
As you know, here at the AAO usually winds are about 12-15knts . Therefore I keep the outhaul relatively small.
I didn't have a chance to see if with stronger winds it is better to use the 8.0 with more outhaul or downscale to my 6.2 Garda with less outhaul..I'll run a test the next time the winds pick up..

You wonder whether a windsup is really a longboard. Probably not, in the strict, technical sense, but it is nevertheless a LONG BOARD, compared to the usual shortboards and its length gives at least one of the advantages of the longboards proper : it moves along in light winds.

Yes, you didn't see me at the AAO Sunday August 13, because I usually go out weekdays ( one of the small advantages of being retired .. ). I'd gladly forego this advantage, though, for a younger age.

Also, I try to avoid weekends because the place is crowded, especially kitesurfers..


Take care

Francone

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xxwindsurfer said..


I was very surprised how smooth and enjoyable the ride was. The soft padded deck was great on the feet without shoes.
A few times the board felt like it might take off but the wind was never really close to planing speed.

It made me wonder if that board can realistically plane in adequate winds or would there be too much drag to lift up and plane in an enjoyable manner?




I am almost 60 and I felt I could enjoy riding that board into my 80s !

Yes, the Windsup is very enjoyable. Too bad I came to it too late, after years of struggling with shortboards, which are not suited to the prevailing conditions here: winds are too light to plane and you are ...glued to the water.

With the Bic Windsup my T.O.W. has dramatically increased and especially now with my fantastic HSM Superfreak 8.0. ( bought for a..song) I can move around at an enjoyable pace even in 12 knts winds ..I'm sure I even came very close to planing the other day, with winds close to 15 knts.. May be with less outhaul I'd have done it, or perhaps I reached the limit of the Windsup design or my own limits, in terms of skills. It doesn't matter!

The only thing is that I had to replace the standard Dolphin fin with a regular full length weed-fin. Dramatic difference! With the Dolphin fin, designed for paddling the board, the board didn't get enough lift, it swirled around and at times I had a spin-outs.
I also installed two side thrusters for more bite, but there is not much of a difference.

By the way, I am 75 and there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to windsurf in your 70's, like me, or even in your eighties.
A 29 years old wife would certainly become... handy, as as Paddles B'mere says, but not for lifting the board on the top of the car...The board weighs only 15 kg and my arms ,( strengthened by years of.... dogged uphauling!) , have no problems in doing this.
The day I need somebody to help me lifting the board , it will be a sign that my windsurfing time is up (and probably, unfortunately, also my..time in the most general sense). But I don't think about it and I keep windsurfing, as long as my body doesn't complain..

Good luck and good wind

Francone

You've now got me curious as to what a different fin might be like on mine

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Paddles B'mere said..
You've now got me curious as to what a different fin might be like on mine

If you are referring to my post, yes, replacing the Dolphin on the Bic Windsup with a regular fin, will make a HUGE difference, believe me.The only limit is the fin box in the Bic. It is a US box and some say that too big a fin may rip off the box..

Francone

Hi Francone,

Slightly off topic, great choice of sail with the 8.0 superfreak, I actually brought 2 back after visiting the loft in Maui.

I thought I would share that Jeff, the designer & I rigged up the 8.0 in the loft, his advice was to use maximum outhaul on the sail unless you were on the threshold of planning. He said doing this, the sail would feel a lot lighter & more responsive in sub planning conditions.

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Paddles B'mere said..
You've now got me curious as to what a different fin might be like on mine

Paddles, if you are looking for large-ish US box fins. Check out Select. They custom made their EDGE fins in US box for me, cheaper $$ than same fin in standard PB form.

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G30ff0 said..
Hi Francone,

Slightly off topic, great choice of sail with the 8.0 superfreak, I actually brought 2 back after visiting the loft in Maui.

I thought I would share that Jeff, the designer & I rigged up the 8.0 in the loft, his advice was to use maximum outhaul on the sail unless you were on the threshold of planning. He said doing this, the sail would feel a lot lighter & more responsive in sub planning conditions.

Interesting! I'll go out tomorrow and try the maximum outhaul. The winds will be light, though ( about 12 knts-15 knots max). Maybe a max outhaul will depower the sail too much. I'll see.

One thing I noticed using the HSM 8.0 is that its large surface creates a huge resistance to the wind when I gibe, particularly during the transition, i.e. when the sail is perpendicular to the wind, before I flip it over..Perhaps I should have given it more outhaul, but I once had a even larger sail ( a Severne Focus 8.5 ) and I don't recall having a similar wind resistance problem in gibing. Maybe it is the HSM Superfreak's design that requires stronger outhaul .

Anyway, with any shortboard, especially the narrower ones, I'd be in the water most of the time when I gibe, so I cannot complain..

Yes, the HSM 8.0 is a very enjoyable sail, very light, well crafted down to the smallest details and aesthetically pleasing. The only other sail giving me a similar feeling of lightness and ease of handling was the Severne Focus 8.5 I just mentioned . I had it for 7 or 8 years and I sold it when I quit shortboarding for a windsup ( and I don't regret it), but maybe I should have kept it..

Francone