With all the accumulated knowledge and expertise of the seabreeze fraternity I was thinking of collating a mast / sail matrix for every sail and mast combo anyone has ever used i.e. Masts (and their characteristics) listed down the page and sails across. I need to figure out a suitable legend whereby people can comment on their experience with a particular combination using a standard list of numbered comments (of course this would need to grow and evolve).

Does anyone have any thoughts and am I being too ambitious. My concern is conflicting reports e.g. Sailor 1 reckons mast A works great with sail B, whereas sailor 2 has completely opposite experience.

To collate information I was thinking this forum could be as good a spot as any.

Sounds ambitious.
Sounds worthy.
How do you format it? A matrix as you say so a particular mast and a particular sail index a field that points to a comment list?

Would you maintain it?
Would it be posted somewhere for general reference?
Would a wiki work?

It deserves a trial run I think.

I guess there is no wind up your way today.

Yeah good idea, I think people will be able to sort the good stuff from the bad when there are conflicting reports submitted.

One thought - it could be big - very big. You'd need the have sail models and years. For example my old NP Zones 2003-2005 worked wonderfully on Ezzy (No Limitz) RDM but the later years like 2007 - 8 didn't (bl00dy awful actually). Now I hear they are back to a more moderate bend curve again and the 09 - 10 may work well on Ezzy / Powerex RDMs.

By the time u have a lots of sail models and maybe up to 8 years for each sail .... phew!


Oh yeah and don't call it a Matrix

Yeah, I've started doing it with excel programme which would allow for an ever expanding list. I could possibly break it into different years if it gets too large.

I don't have a PDF writer on home computer so I'll download initial spreadsheet (matrix) here tomorrow from work.

In the interim, if anyone wants to add info here I can start collating. Maybe the easiest way to share info will be to email me or otherwise I can give to someone who has capacity to host the excel programme / pdf file for anyone to download.

PS JH, just about to go for a sail now

Is this what you want?

I use a 2008 Neil Pryde X6 460 mast with the following sails - 2006 North Warp 7.8m.
2009 Loft 02s, 7.4m, 6.6m, 5.9m.

They all seem to rig quite well on this mast.

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Mobydisc said...

Is this what you want?

I use a 2008 Neil Pryde X6 460 mast with the following sails - 2006 North Warp 7.8m.
2009 Loft 02s, 7.4m, 6.6m, 5.9m.

They all seem to rig quite well on this mast.

Thanks Moby - that's great. Also I was thinking about listing carbon content, type (SDM or RDM), bend characteristics (flex top, constant curve, hard top etc) and IMCS as this should provide evryone with enough information to use a comparative mast for a specific sail. Also any specific comments i.e. sail X rigs well on mast but luff panel creases are visible. Even providing feedback on really bad mast - sail matches as well as this can easily be included in table.

Also as Mark mentioned I might only collect data for sails from 2006 onwards so as not to overly complicate the project.

I will post a list of specific items required to simplify inputting of data.

A lot of work to compile but a really useful reference.

Hey Sausage,

You have come across this page before haven't you?
www.peterman.dk/start-windsurfing-gb01.htm

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nebbian said...

Hey Sausage,

You have come across this page before haven't you?
www.peterman.dk/start-windsurfing-gb01.htm

Yeah, I was hoping to use his mast information where available and link it to suitable sails. So the idea of "our" mast / sail spreadsheet is an extension of his mast table. Might email him to see what info he has (or whether he has undertaken something similar)

Dont forget though, for example one NP X6 460 has a different bend to another NP X6 460 mast.
Masts vary a hell of a lot within the same model mast.

Wow, that's quite an undertaking!

I was thinking, when rating a specific mast/sail combo, wouldnt it make things easier if one simplified it to, say three different choices, 1: Works perfect, rawr! 2: can be used but not leaving me awake at night 3: Baby Jesus cries when this mast is stuffed into the luff?

Also, would you include top/bottom mast extensions in the mast list.

Well, here goes!

Mast: Ezzy430rdm(07) - Full carbon
Ezzy05 SE6.3 :Rating 3
Ezzy08 Infinity6.5 :Rating 3

Mast: GunSails(year unknown)450rdm - Full carbon
KA09 Koncept6.6 :Rating 3

Mast: One490sdm(06) - Carbon 60-70%
Serverne08 CodeRed8.3 : Rating 3 (Rating 2 when overpowered)
NP06 V8-8.0 :Rating 2

Mast: Gaastra400rdm(08) - Full carbon
Gaastra08 Vapor5.5 :Rating 3

Mast: NP X3-460 _ Carbon... what carbon!?!?
As a flagpole this mast is fantastic, for windsurfing uses this sucker set me back a couple of years...

Let me know if you want more (or less) details or clarifications :)

^^^ Is that right Malloy. All those 3 ratings are "Made baby Jesus cry"?

I think the simple 1,2,3 rating doesn't tell the story.
eg Ezzy SE 6.5 '03 + Hypersonic 460 SDM 75%c 12% bend (measured) -
Works well in every respect except bottom batten doesn't rotate unless there is excessive outhaul but can be easily kicked across.

And coincidentally
'09 Loft 7.3 Switch Blade + same mast and bottom two battens don't rotate regardless of outhaul but can be kicked across.

lol I'm such an idiot, all those 3's should have been 1's as I'm quite happy with my current gear setup, sorry for the mistake! :)

a potential problem here is that unless a particular sail has been used with the correct mast how do you know it works properly with the substitute?

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Gestalt said...

a potential problem here is that unless a particular sail has been used with the correct mast how do you know it works properly with the substitute?

The way I see it is that the goal is not necessarily to find the best combination (although that could end up being the result), but to 'simply' gather as much information on mast/sail-combinations as possible?

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NotWal said...

^^^ Is that right Malloy. All those 3 ratings are "Made baby Jesus cry"?

I think the simple 1,2,3 rating doesn't tell the story.
eg Ezzy SE 6.5 '03 + Hypersonic 460 SDM 75%c 12% bend (measured) -
Works well in every respect except bottom batten doesn't rotate unless there is excessive outhaul but can be easily kicked across.

And coincidentally
'09 Loft 7.3 Switch Blade + same mast and bottom two battens don't rotate regardless of outhaul but can be kicked across.

Oops. Just checked and that mast is 13% bend. I guess that explains the hang up.

yep i'm onboard, however, all we are going on is someone saying the mast sail combo was good. they might not have a clue in reality and they may be a lightweight or a heavyweight etc and get a totally different feel.

the mast measurement system as per peterman is the go. i know people who have bought other brand masts based on his tables and gotten very good results.

i think what is needed is a more comprehensive version of the peterman stuff.

just a thought.....

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Malloy said...

Gestalt said...

a potential problem here is that unless a particular sail has been used with the correct mast how do you know it works properly with the substitute?

The way I see it is that the goal is not necessarily to find the best combination (although that could end up being the result), but to 'simply' gather as much information on mast/sail-combinations as possible?

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Gestalt said...

yep i'm onboard, however, all we are going on is someone saying the mast sail combo was good. they might not have a clue in reality and they may be a lightweight or a heavyweight etc and get a totally different feel.

the mast measurement system as per peterman is the go. i know people who have bought other brand masts based on his tables and gotten very good results.

i think what is needed is a more comprehensive version of the peterman stuff.

just a thought.....

Malloy said...

Gestalt said...

a potential problem here is that unless a particular sail has been used with the correct mast how do you know it works properly with the substitute?

The way I see it is that the goal is not necessarily to find the best combination (although that could end up being the result), but to 'simply' gather as much information on mast/sail-combinations as possible?

I agree. However Peterman's data comes from measuring masts and very few people do that.

Okay, I've been playing around with the spreadsheet tonight and think it actually has some legs (albeit very time consuming), so I'm thinking about emailing out excel spreadsheet to anyone who wants to add their sail mast specifics into spreadsheet and then emailing back so I can collate all together and then sort in logical order. PM me if you're keen to assist. I'd really like to sort out the legend etc as changes become more difficult as the list gets bigger. I'm very open to suggestions too, so don't hold back.

As I can't (don't know how to) insert the excel spreadsheet into this forum I'll give you a general run down.

Sails run across page (Sail Manufacturer/model, Manufacture year, Size, Luff length, extension)

Masts run down page (Manufacturer, Mast Year, Length, Carbon content, diameter, IMCS, Bend curve characteristics)

Codes as follows;

Rating
R - Recommended by Sail Manufacturer
E - Excellent match
G - Good match
F - Fair match
X - Incompatible match
NR - Not recommended (possible breakage)


Legend
NP - Neil Pryde
SDM - Standard diametre Mast
RDM - Reduced Dia Mast
F/T - Flex Top
H/T - Hard Top
C/C - Constant Curve


Comments (example only - these can be added to by each submitter although could be subjective. Need to think about how to offer a broad range of generic comments so it doesn't get out of hand)
1.- Cams require adjustment for ease of rotation
2. - Luff Panel exhibits minor creases
3. - Luff Panel exhibits excessive creases
4. - Cams will not rotate regardless of adjustment

Characteristics
0 - 6 Hard Top
7 - 9 Hard Top - Constant Curve
10 - 12 Constant Curve
13 - 15 Constant Curve - Flex Top
16 - 18 Flex Top
19 - 21 Flex Top - Super Flex Top
22 - Super Flex Top

sent pm to join in.

edit, dave has a rig and we have measured masts.

correct me if i am wrong dave but it took about 20minutes per mast?

hmmm,

not trying to be a trouble maker here. it's my pragmatic void causing the issue.

how can one know the characteristic without measuring? or is that for if and when someone measures their mast.

If the information is available then well and good, if not then it stays a blank until you and Dave measure it. That's the general idea of the spreadsheet as it's nearly impossible to get the bend curve characteristics from the mast and sail manufacturers. It's a conspiracy I say.

Hey Sausage,

Once the spreadsheet has settled down a bit I'm happy to host it on the GTC, this sort of information is very hard to come by and would be very valuable to people looking to buy gear.

Top idea!

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nebbian said...

Hey Sausage,

Once the spreadsheet has settled down a bit I'm happy to host it on the GTC, this sort of information is very hard to come by and would be very valuable to people looking to buy gear.

Top idea!

Thanks Nebs, that would be great. I might need to speak to you though regarding size of excel spreadsheet or is this easily integrated into website (i.e. don't you just press a button)?

PS - I know you want a copy of spreadsheet so you can fill in your own mast sail combos

i measured my mast and it's 12 inches.

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Gestalt said...

i measured my mast and it's 12 inches.

Mine's only 3inches................................................in diameter

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sausage said...
PS - I know you want a copy of spreadsheet so you can fill in your own mast sail combos

Busted!

Yeah they take about 15 min each to measure with care.
We tried offering mast measurement as a service to the Wanderers but they couldn't be bothered.
They just want to sail.
Maybe if they realised they were contributing to a generally useful database they would be more forthcoming.
Anyway, the rigs still there and the mast spreadsheet only has about a dozen masts in it.
I'm quite happy to sit around measuring masts for an hour or two, longer if there's no wind and show anyone who's interested how to do it.
I was going to print out little A5 forms with the measurements and the calc algorithm to give to the punters.
Maybe I should start bringing it to the Wanderer's meets again.

yes, the wanderers are not that into technical stuff

sounds good though, please bring if you can, i have some new masts to measure.

are you going to burrum?


sailquick has some data of measured masts also....?

Had a good chat with Gestalt and have come to the realisation that a web programme would be the best option to gather and collate information. Using an excel spreadsheet works fine if there is only one right answer for each sail / mast combo, but as Justin alluded to, 5 people using the exact same combo may have 5 very different experiences. This is where a web based programme can provide everyone's information i.e. if 7 sailors have listed same mast sail combination all with an "excellent match" rating then you would be fairly confident that this is a successful combo and of course vice versa. Having a web based data base would be a much more accurate way of collecting and dispersing data.

Now I just need to find someone to write the programme code for it and host it on their website - Dylan, where are you?

The below is a rough example (dummy only although I inputed Malloy's info and some of my own) and could be an option for the tabulated information where you hit on a sail and up pops everyone's mast combinations and comments etc for the specific sail.